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Bradley Howes
09-13-2017, 02:33 PM
Hello All,

I was doing some research for my art history class at Alfred University and I came across a cage cup known as the Lycurgus Cup. The green photo is when the cup is lit from the front and the red photo is back lit. I was reading about the composition and it has about .0005% gold as well as silver and manganese. I'm wondering how one adds gold to glass batch. I know you have to dissolve the gold in aqua regia (very nasty). From there, historically, tin has been added to make Purple of Cassius which I believe is a powder. However, on Instagram, I saw a post where someone poured a solution, I don't know if this was the aqua regia with auric chloride or something else like a gold solution with some thing else added, straight onto the batch which was then mixed and other oxides added.

I'm really interested in this because this is a glass that becomes completely different based on how its viewed. There's a duality to the glass, similar to rare earth glasses that change color or uv reactive glasses like uranium.

Pete VanderLaan
09-13-2017, 03:25 PM
Gold glasses can liver in reflective light if the molecules get big enough and I suspect that's what you are seeing. I make a gold chloride solution for my rubies and then mix it in gold sands. My friend john just pours the gold chloride into the batch,
There are three important things in the receiving batch, Gold , lead and selenium.

Mike McCain
09-13-2017, 03:28 PM
Color changing glass, Alexandrite. It's a whole wasps nest of philosophical quandaries. Carving cage cups must be the most labor intensive habit ever dreamed up by a glassmaker.

Pete VanderLaan
09-13-2017, 04:50 PM
That's ignoring the glass in itself Mike and that's the question. What's a molecule to do?
Look at the shadows in the two pictures. One's reflective and the other transmissive.
Just melt a simple gold ruby glass. God knows it isn't rocket science anymore and you do learn a lot.

Bradley Howes
09-13-2017, 07:45 PM
Gold glasses can liver in reflective light if the molecules get big enough and I suspect that's what you are seeing. I make a gold chloride solution for my rubies and then mix it in gold sands. My friend john just pours the gold chloride into the batch,
There are three important things in the receiving batch, Gold , lead and selenium.

By livering, do you mean a colloidal solution is formed in the glass of gold and possibly silver nanoparticles/nanospheres? What do the lead and selenium have to do with the gold?

Pete VanderLaan
09-14-2017, 06:46 AM
just to be clear. If you don't use lead and selenium in a ruby glass, at the best it will be weak in color but more likely to not strike at all. Tin is used in old formulas, I've used it but not without the prior mentioned materials.

Big molecules reflect light. Small molecules tend to allow transmissivity. You should melt a few pots of it and gain some real world understanding.

Don Geiger
04-13-2019, 03:09 PM
That's ignoring the glass in itself Mike and that's the question. What's a molecule to do?


Pete and all,

Good day to you.

Perhaps you could recommend some reading on glass chemistry?

I've studied Colored Glasses by W. A. Weyl, several digital batch books from the CMOG collection, various academic papers, and sundry articles. I've even started a small database of what chemicals are supposed to cause what results. I just cannot put it together.

There is no way I can afford to make my own glass. My plan is to mix color at the torch: again, CMOG library assistance proved the viability of this idea. John Burton demonstrated it and I think one of the students in the YouTube video is Ms. Fowler. :)

Please accept my apologies if this is the wrong spot to ask this question. I'm still learning my way around.

Cheers,

Don

Pete VanderLaan
04-14-2019, 09:14 AM
Pete and all,

Good day to you.


There is no way I can afford to make my own glass. My plan is to mix color at the torch: again, CMOG library assistance proved the viability of this idea. John Burton demonstrated it and I think one of the students in the YouTube video is Ms. Fowler. :)

********
I can't say much. Mixing colors at a torch is not something I've done. Nominally, gold rubies require leaded glasses to make a good ruby although some literature supports the notion of a weak ruby from it. I mix up gold sands to make my base additive of gold and that's described in Fynn Lynnaard's translation of the Thuringen notes of Wilhelm Schmidt. I certainly expect that the Rakow has that book. It will only tell you about batch and additives, nothing else.

I don't know quantitatively how one would measure fuming onto glass to obtain color consistently but it sound to me like that's what you want to do. Folks do it with silver and I believe do it with either a chloride or a bromide lump. Gold as a chloride is normally in an aequous solution, not a solid, or at least I've not seen one as a solid in years. Normally gold is weighed as a "Dwt" or a penny weight. 16 pennyweights to the Oz. It's perverse.

Larry Cazes
04-15-2019, 07:07 PM
********


I don't know quantitatively how one would measure fuming onto glass to obtain color consistently but it sound to me like that's what you want to do. Folks do it with silver and I believe do it with either a chloride or a bromide lump. Gold as a chloride is normally in an aequous solution, not a solid, or at least I've not seen one as a solid in years. Normally gold is weighed as a "Dwt" or a penny weight. 16 pennyweights to the Oz. It's perverse.

Ive been torch fuming Gold and Silver on Borosilicate for 8 years now and its still not an exact science but it is a viable method. Sue Ellen Fowler actually produced a DVD some years back that outlined her techniques for torch mixing her own Boro color using clear tubing and chemical colorants. I once owned a copy but its long since been lent to others. Im sure if you search on line you can find it.

Don Geiger
04-15-2019, 07:34 PM
Dear Sir,

First and foremost, thank you for your response. Your shared knowledge and time are appreciated.

Second, please accept my apology for being unclear / imprecise in what I was asking for. I am not inquiring about using fuming as a way to make colored glass at torch. Mr. Snodgrass was kind enough to answer my questions and fuming is not what I am asking about. FYI iridizing a glass vessel is classed with fuming for the purpose of my queries. Very different chemical processes and not why I am pestering you and the other people here.

The Rakow library steered my research to Suellen Fuller (Sp?) to demonstrate that making colors via torch work was possible. (She has made a lovely red cited in a CMOG YouTube video.) Her mentor was John Burton. On another YouTube video he uses Colbolt to make a blue he uses in a small drinking vessel.

Concept of the operation for making colors at the torch

With one end puntied up to a tube add the chemicals to the tube. Add a punty to the other end sealing it. Heat to a blob and using both punties mix. Then use as desired.

What reading the wisdom here has taught me is two fold.

First take the chemicals you and the others use and break them down to a percentage by weight. Such a simple concept and I just plain missed it before being permitted to subscribe here.

Second is sadly how much further my research has to go. Borosilicate as a substrate is not 96ish COE soda glass. Hence my question.

I do not mind failing or experiments going sideways. Before I start investing retirement monies, I do want a fair chance of success. Boro is weird, I like it but it is not normal from my research here and other places.

I hope you and others here can either recommend formulas based on boro glass or steer my research for how glass molecules move (word usage?) to be able to make an educated guess on how to tweak chemical components to color glass at torch using boro glass.

Sadly my research efforts have stalled. A big shout out to Schot Glass. They are focused on clarity of their product while I want to add color into it. Exploring what they are doing was insightful but Fe control is not where I want to go.

Conclusion
Once again thank you for your response and please accept my apologies for the poor way I phrased my query. What I am seeking is two fold. First, any insight or concrete ideas for which chemicals produce what colors in boro. Second, the heck with the substrate, what chemicals produce which colors and why. Sneaky third, recommended readings. If you and the members recommend it then I bloody well ought to read it too. Out of print is a tribulation and I am patient when ordering such tomes.

Cheers,

Don
PS: Your time to respond and anybody else's who responds here is highly appreciated. I was sent here by a glass provider when I pestered them, which is a high commendation.
PSS: I humongous TY to CMOG and the Raknow library staff without whose assistance I'd never have discovered glass working beyond YouTube. And, curse you Red Baron for feeding my curiosity. Fair warning Pete and all, you may also get blamed when I pester some one else next. :-)

Larry Cazes
04-15-2019, 07:44 PM
Just for the sake of completeness for the archives a quick search shows the video on handmixed color with a torch to be "Flamework: An Intimate Art Featuring Suellen Fowler". It is still available at Firelady.com. Maybe consider using soft glass tubing and her basic techniques.

Pete VanderLaan
04-16-2019, 07:53 AM
Those damn archives again!

Every single atom that goes into any given glass helps determine what colors can be made with them. There is no panacea and not even close to one. It strikes me that if you want to seal colorants in the tube, they had best be the pure metals with no oxides to gas out. You're going to need a seriously accurate scale, not one of those drug tools.
Expansion does not matter in coloring just the glass bones. Some of these atoms are quite toxic in proximity to your nose by the way.

And yes, the Ladies in the Rakow are truly remarkable. A great source of pride for me was when John Bingham, Henry Summa and I donated all the proceeds from selling the Hot Glass Information Exchange to the Rakow which allowed them to buy their first computer.

If you are indeed serious, buy Volf before it's gone.

Larry Cazes
04-16-2019, 01:23 PM
I have read these messages through a few times and I still cant figure out exactly what the OP is trying to achieve Pete. Just trying to help.

Pete VanderLaan
04-16-2019, 05:27 PM
That was good archive research Larry!.
It appears to me that he wants to stuff the appropriate amount of given metals, ( not oxides ) into a sealed tube and apply heat to that sealed tube and to make the color happen. I have a lot of problems with the approach, particularly given the basic glass type in the first place.

This really is not in my pay grade. Sorry.

Don Geiger
04-16-2019, 06:20 PM
Those damn archives again!

Every single atom that goes into any given glass helps determine what colors can be made with them. There is no panacea and not even close to one. It strikes me that if you want to seal colorants in the tube, they had best be the pure metals with no oxides to gas out. You're going to need a seriously accurate scale, not one of those drug tools.
Expansion does not matter in coloring just the glass bones. Some of these atoms are quite toxic in proximity to your nose by the way.

And yes, the Ladies in the Rakow are truly remarkable. A great source of pride for me was when John Bingham, Henry Summa and I donated all the proceeds from selling the Hot Glass Information Exchange to the Rakow which allowed them to buy their first computer.

If you are indeed serious, buy Volf before it's gone.

Pete,

Thank you!

Is this the Volf you recommended, Milos Bohuslav Volf?

If yes, which of his three books do you recommend I start with? The first two look very interesting but... At those prices it will have to be one at a time over a period of time. The second one looks like it might be a companion to and an update for Weyl's Coloured Glass. {I had to dig out my CRC Handbook for Weyl}

Mathematical Approach to Glass (Glass Science and Technology, Vol 9)
Milos Bohuslav Volf
ISBN 10: 044498951X / ISBN 13: 9780444989512
Published by Elsevier Science Ltd, 1988

Chemical Approach to Glass
Milos Bohuslav Volf
ISBN 10: 0983703809 / ISBN 13: 9780983703808
Published by Igneous Glassworks, 2011

Technical Approach to Glass (Glass Science and Technology)
Volf, Milos Bohuslav
ISBN 10: 044498805X / ISBN 13: 9780444988058
Published by Elsevier Science Ltd, U.S.A., 1990

Thank you for the heads up on ventilation and out-gassing.

Ventilation is way up there as a requirement.

I'd not considered out-gassing.

Measuring chemicals, yes sir.

Please correct me if I am going astray. John Burton and Suellen Fowler use a tube length of about 1/2 inch without an ID for their demos. From what I've learned here already: establish a percentage of whatever is being used to make a color for total weight used in whichever source I am working from; the way they mix the colors results in some of the punties being melted in so the weight will have to be the tube used and with some experience an estimate for the punties consumed in the process; and, it sure looks like the application will be in very few grams each.

Once again thank you for your time and shared wisdom.

Cheers,

Don

Don Geiger
04-16-2019, 07:00 PM
Ive been torch fuming Gold and Silver on Borosilicate for 8 years now and its still not an exact science but it is a viable method. Sue Ellen Fowler actually produced a DVD some years back that outlined her techniques for torch mixing her own Boro color using clear tubing and chemical colorants. I once owned a copy but its long since been lent to others. Im sure if you search on line you can find it.

Larry,

First and foremost thank you for your response.

Is this the DVD you were thinking of, Flamework: An Intimate Art? If yes, and you are looking for a replacement copy it is available at http://flameworkglass.com/SiteFiles/SFFG-Main.html

Two fuming questions.

1) Is fumed glassware safe to use with consumables like beverages and food?
2) Do you encase your fumed work?

Thank you once again.

Cheers,

Don

Don Geiger
04-16-2019, 07:22 PM
Ive been torch fuming Gold and Silver on Borosilicate for 8 years now and its still not an exact science but it is a viable method. Sue Ellen Fowler actually produced a DVD some years back that outlined her techniques for torch mixing her own Boro color using clear tubing and chemical colorants. I once owned a copy but its long since been lent to others. Im sure if you search on line you can find it.

Larry,

I found this YouTube video of Suellen Fowler mixing color at the torch. It is under five minutes long. In this one she shares the chemicals she uses to make the color too. Sighs, not how much of each but it is better than what I didn't have.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqqMb44gg18

Based on the intro glass work I'd bet this was linked to the video you recommended.

Thank you once again.

Cheers,

Don

Don Geiger
04-16-2019, 07:38 PM
********
I can't say much. Mixing colors at a torch is not something I've done. Nominally, gold rubies require leaded glasses to make a good ruby although some literature supports the notion of a weak ruby from it. I mix up gold sands to make my base additive of gold and that's described in Fynn Lynnaard's translation of the Thuringen notes of Wilhelm Schmidt. I certainly expect that the Rakow has that book. It will only tell you about batch and additives, nothing else.

I don't know quantitatively how one would measure fuming onto glass to obtain color consistently but it sound to me like that's what you want to do. Folks do it with silver and I believe do it with either a chloride or a bromide lump. Gold as a chloride is normally in an aequous solution, not a solid, or at least I've not seen one as a solid in years. Normally gold is weighed as a "Dwt" or a penny weight. 16 pennyweights to the Oz. It's perverse.

Pete,

Thanks to Larry, further on in this thread, I located Suellen Fowler demonstrating what I am interested in doing. The YouTube video is about five minutes long and she is using metallic oxides. To be blunt she and her mentor are using what I call slop chemistry. Reproducibility is problematic at best. But, based on what I've learned here I think I can get close to reproducible results.

Anyway, if you can spare five minutes here is the URL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqqMb44gg18

As always, many thanks.

Cheers,

Don

Pete VanderLaan
04-17-2019, 07:41 AM
Chemical approach to Glass by Milos Volf is what you want. I also have technical glasses by Volf but I don't think it's remotely going to help. Igneous Glass in Utah reprinted the Volf. It shows up in a google search. It won't get another printing so, when it's gone, it will be gone. The original from 1980 runs well over $1,000 dollars. Obscure science.

Sky Campbell
04-17-2019, 11:50 AM
I can say from my knowledge there is no toxicity related to silver or gold. Fairly safe to fume with and no toxicity problems with using a vessel fumed with either metal.

That said fuming silver and gold doesnít work on soda lime the way it does on borosilicate. Iím not going to get into why that is maybe someone else will elaborate.

Bradley Howes
04-17-2019, 11:54 AM
please pardon the lack of capitalization in this post, my shift key gave out.

Recently in my Glass Art Engine independent study at AU, I've been able to make gold ruby glasses with some success. Starting with 100g of spruce pine color base, i add .2g of black tin oxide and 1ml of dissolved gold. this gold solution has a fixed amount of gold per ml, this amount is known quantitatively. the ingredients are mixed thoroughly and then melted in an electric furnace at 1400c or 2552f. this will strike to ruby after 4 ish hours at 600-650c. when i mix 100g spruce pine with .4g black tin and 5ml, the gold strikes immediately when i pour it out of the crucible into a small graphite mold. i've also mixed an opaline gold as follows;
100g spruce pine color base
5ml gold solution aka .05g of gold
.4g black tin ox
4g stpp
1g potassium nitrate
1g boric acid

the tin helps with the solubility of gold to promote striking in the low temp range. the stpp is for opalescence. the potassium nitrate is being used as an oxidizer to keep the gold from forming metallic beads on the surface of the melt, this was a problem in an earlier melt. the boric acid was added just to balance things out a little. jacob willcox uses it in his melts to help with melting and compatibility. the two images included are lip trimmings from a vessel i made with the gold opaline.

Bradley Howes
04-17-2019, 11:56 AM
I can say from my knowledge there is no toxicity related to silver or gold. Fairly safe to fume with and no toxicity problems with using a vessel fumed with either metal.

i couldn't disagree more. silver fuming releases very hazardous fumes.

Sky Campbell
04-17-2019, 12:13 PM
i couldn't disagree more. silver fuming releases very hazardous fumes.

We have been down this road before so not sure if I care to get into another pissing match. My question is where did you get your information?

If you care to call someone out for bad information it would be nice to do it with some facts.

Pete VanderLaan
04-17-2019, 12:36 PM
We have been down this road before so not sure if I care to get into another pissing match. My question is where did you get your information?

If you care to call someone out for bad information it would be nice to do it with some facts.
****
Facts?, we don't need no stinkin facts!

I do tend to think that anytime your are breathing something strong enough to affect the color of a reasonably molecularly secure thing like hot glass and to actually change its color, your brain is probably interacting with the material as well. If you can smell it, you're interacting with it. I know of no cases of poisoning attributed to that process. That being said, I don't know if its bad for you but I equally find it unlikely that its good for you either. Given the known interaction with the brain that Arsenic causes ( major headaches) being off gassed from lead arsenate white enamel powder, I'd tend to use a really good ventilation booth if I was considering this.

But once again, it's not the materials we use in glass that are killing glassmakers. It's alcohol and Tobacco.

Pete VanderLaan
04-17-2019, 12:50 PM
Bradley: That's very cool that you are able to do that with the SP color base. Given that you're adding the nitrates to your stuff, I doubt you really need the base. Conventionally, rubies made in a non lead base are far weaker in intensity than those made in a lead. Further, it's unusual to see rubies made without a trace of Selenium. You might try adding it. That's great work and I appreciate your thoroughness. What kinds of effects is this having on expansion.

I don't view aqua regia as being that scary. You mix it, you wear gloves, blah blah blah. Gold is normally sold by the pennyweight ( a dwt) and there are sixteen dwt in a troy ounce of gold 24 ct. I always mixed that up in a beaker with the ratio aqua regia 2 cups nitric acid, one cup hydrochloric acid added the gold shot (28 dwt) heating it gently over several days and then adding that to 100 grams per dwt silica and mashing that around . Dry it, then add it to a lead base batch.

You'll find those little ampules of gold chloride to be profoundly expensive compared to making up your own. It's true of silver nitrate as well and I make that too.

Take a look at a book that Finn Lynggaard translated from Wilhelm Schmidt in the Thuringen factory. Finn does a great job of describing the process. The book was simply called "recipes" I believe the working copies to be long gone but I would expect the library at Alfred should have a copy, a small blue hardcover book.

Rich Samuel
04-17-2019, 01:26 PM
In the late '70s, I worked for Water Pik. We introduced a faucet-mounted water purifier called InstaPure (now, spun off as a separate company). The Feds made us recall them because the filters contained trace amounts of silver, considered highly toxic.

It looks like science finally prevailed, though:

https://www.dartmouth.edu/~toxmetal/toxic-metals/more-metals/silver-faq.html

Too much exposure will, however, make you eligible to join Blue Man Group. ;)

Pete VanderLaan
04-17-2019, 02:39 PM
It also says this, which I view as a high level exposure if you are vaporizing a metal:
" In factory environments where high exposures to silver dust or fumes are likely, protective clothing, gloves, eye goggles and ventilators or respirator equipment can prevent ill effects."

What's an ill effect. STEL limits are on all materials and that's the level beyond which, bad things happen. Given the value of silver, it's likely that no one is interested in blowing it off into the atmosphere. I would still say any material reduced to nanoparticles is worth giving the evil eye.

Larry Cazes
04-17-2019, 09:21 PM
Larry,

First and foremost thank you for your response.

Is this the DVD you were thinking of, Flamework: An Intimate Art? If yes, and you are looking for a replacement copy it is available at http://flameworkglass.com/SiteFiles/SFFG-Main.html

Two fuming questions.

1) Is fumed glassware safe to use with consumables like beverages and food?
2) Do you encase your fumed work?

Thank you once again.

Cheers,

Don

Yes. Thats it. Im inclined to hunt down and retrieve my copy that went astray :) Thanks.

Everything that I fume is eventually fully encased in clear. I am making large solid spheres with three dimensional landscapes inside that are created by fuming Gold and Silver onto Borosilicate clear.

When I first started down this path I did extensive research concerning the toxicity of these metals and was not able to confirm any but I also believe in doing what I can to minimize my exposure to them. I ALWAYS work underneath an overhead hood with an appropriately sized exhaust fan. It just seems like good practice to me.

Don Geiger
04-18-2019, 06:02 PM
Chemical approach to Glass by Milos Volf is what you want. I also have technical glasses by Volf but I don't think it's remotely going to help. Igneous Glass in Utah reprinted the Volf. It shows up in a google search. It won't get another printing so, when it's gone, it will be gone. The original from 1980 runs well over $1,000 dollars. Obscure science.

Pete,

Many thanks as always.

I've found a few volumes in fair quality for ~$350. My concern is which language they are published in. All of that aside, Thank You for introducing me to a new recommended source of information.

My only real concern here is having to put off a computer upgrade, spend my mad money beyond my budget. I'll stress test my current system this weekend. If it passes I am buying this book. Come on stress test. ;-)

Thank you, without your help I'd never have found this tome.

Oh heck yea, please publish! Just let us know when it is available and where. In very plain English, as I learn my way around here, gleefully saving ideas, you sir are a veritable fount of wisdom (IMHO).

Once again and as always many thanks.

Cheers,

Don

Don Geiger
04-18-2019, 06:35 PM
I can say from my knowledge there is no toxicity related to silver or gold. Fairly safe to fume with and no toxicity problems with using a vessel fumed with either metal.

That said fuming silver and gold doesnít work on soda lime the way it does on borosilicate. Iím not going to get into why that is maybe someone else will elaborate.

Dear Larry and Sky,

Thank you both for your time and shared wisdom.

Based on your guidance I plan on fuming with both.

If I may be so bold I am going to contribute to the oft, based on posts here, disputed safety of gold and silver. Disclaimer - my information is old but recently updated specific to medical applications of Silver.

The easy one first. They used to inject Gold to treat arthritis. It is also used in dental work. More or less it is biologically inert. Then again what I was exposed to was safe at the time. Just saying.

Silver is another matter. Do your own search of MSDS for providers and make up your own minds. It is used to swab new born's eyes to protect them from possible microbiological contaminants from the birth channel. It is again used topically to protect burn patients from infections when their skin is burned off. It is used, myself included, to inhibit algae growth in custom water cooled computer systems. It kills stuff, preferably not me or you.

Gold and Silver fuming does not scare me. Let me try it this way. After a life time of training to be a dirty old man I find myself about to be there. Ventilation is very important to me; not just for fuming but for merely fiddle pharting around with glass on a torch.

The rule of thumb I found was to spend no less on a ventilation system than on a torch. Back in the day before certain things were classified as carcinogenic I got zonked out of my mind on fumes cleaning optics from what is not classified as carcinogenic. I don't care how safe it is supposed to be. I am not about to break decades of training to be a dirty old man for want of a proper ventilation system; ever.

Please understand I am not trying to stir any pots here. I shared why this is MHO. I provided facts that can be verified about Gold and Silver. The conclusion is ventilation is important and if you are also in training to be a dirty old man or woman ignore ventilation at your own peril! Since I want to be around long enough to be an embarrassment to both the kids and grand-kids good ventilation is a no brainer for me.

Cheers,

Don

Don Geiger
04-18-2019, 06:48 PM
Yes. Thats it. Im inclined to hunt down and retrieve my copy that went astray :) Thanks.

Everything that I fume is eventually fully encased in clear. I am making large solid spheres with three dimensional landscapes inside that are created by fuming Gold and Silver onto Borosilicate clear.

When I first started down this path I did extensive research concerning the toxicity of these metals and was not able to confirm any but I also believe in doing what I can to minimize my exposure to them. I ALWAYS work underneath an overhead hood with an appropriately sized exhaust fan. It just seems like good practice to me.

Larry,

Thank you as always. I am happy that I actually in some small way provided something you are interested in.

I've become lost between which thread I read what in where. Somewhere you shared what you make when fuming. I have yet to find it.

I'd very much like to see some examples. If you could share a link or few it would be appreciated. I just cannot envision what you described.

As always many thanks.

Cheers,

Don

Don Geiger
04-18-2019, 07:13 PM
please pardon the lack of capitalization in this post, my shift key gave out.

Recently in my Glass Art Engine independent study at AU, I've been able to make gold ruby glasses with some success. Starting with 100g of spruce pine color base, i add .2g of black tin oxide and 1ml of dissolved gold. this gold solution has a fixed amount of gold per ml, this amount is known quantitatively. the ingredients are mixed thoroughly and then melted in an electric furnace at 1400c or 2552f. this will strike to ruby after 4 ish hours at 600-650c. when i mix 100g spruce pine with .4g black tin and 5ml, the gold strikes immediately when i pour it out of the crucible into a small graphite mold. i've also mixed an opaline gold as follows;
100g spruce pine color base
5ml gold solution aka .05g of gold
.4g black tin ox
4g stpp
1g potassium nitrate
1g boric acid

the tin helps with the solubility of gold to promote striking in the low temp range. the stpp is for opalescence. the potassium nitrate is being used as an oxidizer to keep the gold from forming metallic beads on the surface of the melt, this was a problem in an earlier melt. the boric acid was added just to balance things out a little. jacob willcox uses it in his melts to help with melting and compatibility. the two images included are lip trimmings from a vessel i made with the gold opaline.

Bradely,

Thank you for sharing this and your following posts.

My goal / plan is to use the wisdom shared here and elsewhere to mix colors in borosilicate at torch. Being new here where I posted what where is lost; a url for the techniques was posted somewhere here and I can provide it again if needful.

If I missed it here please forgive me I am a noob and rather overwhelmed by the fecundity of information. In addition to your posted formula that did not use Selenium (Sp?) What mixed with what creates what is of special interest. Anything you would be willing to post here or URLs would be appreciated.

Thank you in advance for any light you can shed on my research.

Cheers,

Don
PS: this was the first time I've ever read about Spruce Pine Color Base. Searching on-line provided unsatisfactory results so additional research leads would be appreciated.

Jordan Kube
04-18-2019, 10:35 PM
Bravo Bradley!

Pete VanderLaan
04-19-2019, 07:11 AM
To the best of my recollection, Spruce Pine color base was an outgrowth of my first color class held in Santa Fe. Tom took that class. I had asked him to provide me with the SP87 formula without the additives of nitrates or antimony which are fining agents for the clear glass. Colors in reduction really need to have oxygen excluded from them wherever possible. Tom did that and we took that material and took shots at making copper ruby from it and hit it on the first try. It was not a great copper ruby but my take on the color was that it really needed a very pure calcium and that was not in that mix. If I was doing that color, I would use a food grade hydrate lime. I recall talking with Dick Ritter about that some years later.

So, Tom began to sell that product, unadvertised of course which seems the way of Spruce Pine. Half the world doesn't know he mixes Gaffer's formula for sale, sells Gaffer color rod ( no frits) and mixes snowflake variants of all batches.
The SP color base is not mixed, it's just the raw chemicals in the bag, You have to mix yourself.

I don't know how many copies of Volf actually remain for sale. I think Joe was disappointed in the response to it and I don't think it will get reprinted. Another mayfly book in Glass.

Greg Vriethoff
04-19-2019, 12:54 PM
The Volf book is something I have had on my want list since Joe began selling the reprint. $200 is a lot for someone that makes less than 20K annual income. I had a brief exchange with Joe, and he said he would be willing to work a trade for some glass to lower the price. I don't know how much he pays attention to this now since there's no longer any interest like Pete says. It's such an esoteric subject I'm not surprised.

When I was a grad student in SoCal (2003-2007) my wife was also working on her PhD at UCLA. The engineering dept had a copy that had last been checked out in 1994. She had very generous library privileges, and could check out up to 200 or so items at a time. She only had to return items if someone else requested them. I had that original copy for five or six years. I had to give it back when she graduated in 2010. Bad on me for never making scans/copies. It really wasn't serving me very well since I was not actually getting into batching my own glass. It's very dense, and I'm not a chemist.

Pete VanderLaan
04-19-2019, 05:34 PM
The marvel to me about Volf is comparatively, it's not dense, not like Weyl.

Oh well, Hodkins and Cousins had last been checked out of the State of New Mexico Library in 1936 when my teachers expropriated it.

Those pages on making copper ruby are just filthy with copper oxide smears.

I would tell anyone seriously interested in the subject to borrow the money to buy it now. I never would have thought Glassnotes IV would bring $600 dollars let alone see Volf in a recent reprint for those kinds of prices. I haven't seen any copies of the Wilhelm Schmidt translation by Lyngaard available it all. Coloured glasses as the hardbound, I have no notion of value. I haven't seen it on the market in ten years. Softcover, that POS reprint on toilet paper is one I had once, I don't know where it falls in.

Think of Mayflies people. Two weeks and they're simply gone. We have a history of this. These books are definitely not forever.

Rich Samuel
04-20-2019, 12:24 AM
Could it be a tough sell at $200 a pop because there are copies available in 117 academic libraries in the US and Canada?

https://www.worldcat.org/title/chemical-approach-to-glass/oclc/10022665

Pete VanderLaan
04-20-2019, 08:27 AM
Anyone serious about the chemistry of glass would want to own this and Weyl. Currently, it sells for more than the original asking price. There's a reason for that. It's true of Glassnotes IV as well. I would certainly never sell any of my glass books after fifty years of glass.

Jordan Kube
04-20-2019, 02:09 PM
I've been thinking about picking up where Glass Notes left off. There's nothing else like it out there but people are still hungry for the information.

Pete VanderLaan
04-20-2019, 03:08 PM
The question is how to pick it up. Since I wrote the section on batch, that world has entirely changed. The suppliers are pretty much gone, many materials simply are no longer available.

Building your own equipment seems distant now compared to 1990. There's little desire and perhaps even less confidence and Henry laid that put quite well.

Something I get to do is to look at the sites where the lurkers are hanging out and it's never in the current material. I find them in really strange places.

I asked my son last night to secure the data for the entire period and he is willing to do that. It's an enormous amount of stuff. The book could just as easily be organizing all those observations into something one could write an index for. Collating that 120 thousand posts would take more than a year working full time. Katie continues to hold copyright and has yet to let go of the show although she sees that writing on the wall.

Principally, Henry has all the material from the book but what to do with it. I do firmly believe it needs to be in print form. I can put up the money to print but I indeed need help and you are one of the people I was going to inquire with. The fact that the used copies sell for over five hundred dollars tells me you're right about the need for information.

Most of the pioneers are at the end of the trail now. All I have to do is look around and watch the herd being culled. There's a phenomenal amount of knowledge there. I don't think any of us writing then felt we had exhausted our material. Certainly Frank and I didn't but the question remains as to how to keep after it. I thought Greg to be accurate when he said students didn't want to question, they just wanted answers. I'd prefer roadmaps.

Boro needs real treatment and I'm not qualified there at all. I see it as being unpublished to date. This site doesn't reflect the good work being done on that. That being said, I'm still disappointed that I think we are far dumber as a group than we were in 1990. That shouldn't be.

Jordan Kube
04-20-2019, 03:46 PM
There's a lot of ways to approach it thanks to the internet and the tools that are available now. It's possible to transmit much more information and in more detail than a book. Print still has a place though, it's not black and white. I'm almost done with my OpenLathe project, where I take people through the steps to build their own glass lathe. Almost 2 hours of video at this point I think. It's free for anyone now but I chose to fund the creation through Kickstarter. How to build a forge or metal foundry furnace are a dime a dozen on YouTube but a lot of it is garbage or they don't have plans and other details. I feel like there is room for well done plans and walk-throughs with good information for all kinds of equipment but it's going to cost people money. Not much money but it won't be free.

Pete VanderLaan
04-20-2019, 05:49 PM
It's not my element. I think you will do fine.

Don Geiger
04-21-2019, 12:52 PM
I've been thinking about picking up where Glass Notes left off. There's nothing else like it out there but people are still hungry for the information.

Jordon,

You are 100% correct, there is a great deal of interest. As you point out in a later post there is also a lot of bad information. I'd never have discovered Chemical Approach to Glass if it were not for the people here. Heck, the Rakow library recommended the pipe making community as a source of information about coloring boro glass. No joy, but I looked.

Jordon and Pete,

1) What is wrong with PDF based publications? (depending on how I use the information I print them out, otherwise they are saved or discarded) It reduces the cost of publication.
2) Kick start funding is viable with a caveat. People have to know it is out there. What better community to accomplish that than this one?
2a) Preservation of the wealth of knowledge here. I am trying to read everything about coloring glass here and an Index to find things sounds like a winning way to publish everything.
2b) Glassblowing - I cannot do $500 but that price and the ongoing scarcity is not justified by being out of print. I suggest it is because, with out dated things like vendors and all, there is a demand for the information it contains.
2c) Jordon, based on your posts here I'd buy your book in a heart beat!
3) I look at kick starting this way, I want the books so I'd spend what I can afford via a kick starter for them. PDF or hard copy is not an issue as either way I'll be able to read them. :-)
4) Please publish!


Jordon,

Please share the links for your glass lathe. Mister Drier's (Sp?) and Goldschmidt's work with large diameter boro tube should be adaptable to and the improved temperature control I've witnessed are a winning combination.

CMOG has YouTube videos of both their work. Salem's Glass Master's Series has someone, the name eludes me, making drinking vessels on a glass lathe.

Soap box just creaked so I'll shut up now.

Cheers,

Don

Pete VanderLaan
04-23-2019, 11:05 AM
Scarcity of Glassnotes IV does drive the price. Sometimes it's irrational. Most schools should have it in the library but I'd advise against leaving your personal copy around.

I sold a comic book last year for over 50K. It's actually not rare. It's just something that everyone in that world wanted and they have a heartfelt belief that it's a good investment. It has actually gone down some since I sold mine in Dubai of all places. Amazing Fantasy 15, the introduction of Spiderman.
I think there are about 400 copies in better shape than mine was in and about 500 that are the same. Really nice copies go for 800K and more. The estimate are that there are probably another 1,000 out in the wild. Nothing similar vaguely commands the price.

As glassnotes becomes harder and harder to find, and I do think that to be true, it will be an interesting question as to why folks want it. I think that to be true of Volf more so because there just aren't very many of us who care about the chemistry. People do strange stuff. I keep reading my copy and melting glasses. .

Jordan Kube
04-23-2019, 01:10 PM
I think that to be true of Volf more so because there just aren't very many of us who care about the chemistry.

I don't know Pete. I was told John Croucher's class had the longest wait list in school history. People are out there that want the info, they just don't know they need that book!

Pete VanderLaan
04-23-2019, 01:39 PM
In retrospect, I wish I had taken John's class. Those of us at 70 aren't going to be around that long. John, given gaffer, carries an extra amount of weight.
How was it? He had told me he was going after some copper ruby for casting.
The trouble there is how much Penland pays and it really offers no incentive to teach that way. It was why I turned it down and opted for doing it in my own studio. Joe didn't print that many copies but they were slow to sell.