FRAX BOARD for GH DOORS

[Doug Chaussee]

Does anyone have a good method of securing the 2" frax board to the angle iron door frame for a gloryhole? I had planned on securing them with sliding SS clips which would be screwed to the outside of the frames which would be an easy set up and removal when I have to replace the board. Thanks!

[Steve Stadelman]

Doug, they are a respiratory hazard.

[Dave Bross]

How much of a hazard is frax if it's sealed up with something like zircon wash(zircon and colloidal silica or alumina)?

I've done the sealed frax and I've used firbrick in the glory. The brick tends to dust like hell once it gets a little tired. Also not good for the pipes (as in slang for lungs and bronchial stuff).

The sealed up frax seems to do quite well until the coating starts breaking down. At that point re-sealing it seems to get things back to not dusting.

What would the "perfect world" way to do this be? Kastolite 30 with frax sealed in behind it? the sealed frax?

I also love the fact that an all-frax glory comes up to full heat in 15 minutes. I would miss that if I had heavier things lining the hole. I would also miss my life if I went down with respiratory failure.

[Ken Peterson]

I'm begining to think these days that everything (except hard cast or bricks) sould be coated with a wash. It seems to keep dust down, and increase life. I like the idea of really light doors, but cast doors seem to work great. If it works, why do something else? Especially when it could be a health hazard.

[Steve Stadelman]

Doug, if you use the SS clips and some screws use some never sieze so the will be able to be taken apart.

Or weld the clips and plan on grinding them off and re-welding new ones with each change.

[Doug Chaussee]

Steve, I will be coating the board with rigidizer and then using a thined down coating of sairset on the exposed surfaces. I know about the dust issue. I built a set of these GH doors when I was still at Prairie School and they lasted 18 months with high school students hammering on them. I have got about 8 months on the cast doors for the big GH and they are almost shot. The SS clips may just be the way to go so far. I didn't want to turn this into a debate about cast doors vs brick doors vs frax board doors. I just happen to want to do board doors on this smaller GH. Thanks

[Pete VanderLaan]

I make my furnace doors out of Kast-o-lite 30 in an angle iron frame. I then weld an inverted angle iron frame to that and inset 2 inchs of "M" board and then give it a colloidal silica/ milled zircon wash. They really hold up. I have some that are ten years old now. They look like shit but they don't yield dust

[David Paterson]

Doug,


What make and type of frax board are you using, and where do you get it?

.

[Doug Chaussee]

David, I'll have to get the specs off of the material when I get back down to the studio. It is from Refractory Services here in Wisconsin and is said to be good for 2600 degree application. The piece is 25" by 25" by 2" thick and ran about $50.00 for the piece delivered.

[Pete VanderLaan]

That price is consistent with the seven dollar per board foot price. If you get near the service rating, it warps- badly.

[Steve Stadelman]

I really understand the safety debate thing Doug. Pete and I just cannot let Frax ever slip by without mentioning that unless a lot of precautions are taken (and it sounds like you are) it is a hazard.

[Ed Mc Donald]

Ditto Steve! jeeesh, don't get me started(again).....
Even if you use rigidizer, colloidal silica mixes,etc.(I used ITC 100..) it all breaks down, certainly with popoffs, frit drops ..etc., then its a major issue to get rid of the dust. Again, personal choices..
As an aside topic of sorts: does vermiculite offgas at all when used as a crackoff tray medium??
Just cause you're paranoid, doesn't mean that....(you may be overthinking.or not.)..

[Pete VanderLaan]

I feel the need to point out again that those of us who have been exposed to this stuff for 30 to 40 years are not getting lung diseases from it. The guys who seem to have gotten into trouble are smokers and drinkers.

I don't want to dismiss health hazards at all but there really are reasonable and safe ways to handle the materials which help you all earn your living. Fiber board can be covered with sheet metal after all. I find that ceramic shell-( zircon-colloidal silica) is a hard vacuumable surface. I don't think it's unreasonable to use it. At a certain point you have to look at the alternatives and they aren't magic bullets.

[Doug Chaussee]

Thank you Pete! Working with frax or frax board is NO different than working with any other material that can cause airborne particles. Wood dust, portland cement, leaded glass, galvanized metal all can be a hazzard too but nobody here goes running with their skirts in the air about those. Use good and safe shop practice, wear a respirator when creating dust, and in the case of frax board, encapsulate the material as well as possible by any number of means.
I was reluctant to post this question because I knew that it would degenerate into a thread on the evils of frax board rather than answer the simple question as posed. This material can be used safely with proper application.:headbang:

[Jeff Hoover]

Originally posted by Ed Mc Donald
...As an aside topic of sorts: does vermiculite offgas at all when used as a crackoff tray medium??...

I've never heard of vermiculite offgassing at all. I thought the potential danger was particulate-related.

[Pete VanderLaan]

vermiculite is one of those asbestos related materials that has a little hook on it in a microsope. It like anything else has potential to be dusty. I knock off on a piece of fiber. In New Mexico, one in ten drivers is over point one blood alchohol 24 hours a day. It helps put things in perspective.

[Steve Stadelman]

I apologise Doug.

[Pete VanderLaan]

I don't think you need to apologize at all. You were pointing out something that is true and also doing it from the perspective of manufacturing furnaces which is in liability land.

I was simply pointing out the relative risks in the world of making stuff. I keep looking back to last year when my daughter, who was on the DWI council for Santa Fe as a high school kid, was later T- boned in an accident by a drunk running a red light who nearly killed her. I actually think making lead glasses are way more dangerous than using fiberboard. and further think that 95 percent of the studios I visit are so seriously underventilated that any kind of conversation about respiratory hazards is laughable in that light.

[Steve Stadelman]

The overriding need to always promote safety in a forum that is viewed by anyone interested is kind of difficult because I really respect Doug's real question, and tried to answear it appropriatly.

I get frustrated myself.

[Dave Bross]

OK, back on topic momentarily...

I saw some really cool clips for securing plywood into window openings for hurricanes last trip to the building supply. I forgot exactly how they were shaped but were quite clever and maybe applicable here.

Perhaps a bit of googling might turn up enough info to create something similar in smaller scale.

[Pete VanderLaan]

well... that's because you chose a media with INFRASTRUCTURE baby!

The potential in this medium for hurting yourself is amazing and can be achieved at a remarkable number of levels. Almost everything is dangerous if viewed from that perspective. A lot of the time I think of glassworkers like the Tarot card of the fool, playing his flute while walking off a cliff. The presumption in the card is that the fool will turn away from the cliff at the last second, just on a whim, never knowing it was there at all.

Even so, your issuance of caution should be in the company line. I will say the same things about batch chemistry. Universally, if people just had good ventilation, and few do, this would be irrelevant. Even my dumb little glassworks downtown changes the air every 20 seconds. Cold in the winter....

[Cynthia England]

Doug.. not only am I seconding Steve on his observations but it is my learned opionion.. that you may have chosen the wrong material for this particular application.
If you plan on NEVER OPENING your Glory Hole Doors.. you may be ok..
BUT
if you just happen to get an excited assistant - that
momentarily forgets that once HOT this material is fragile - and
opens a G/H door then SLAMS it.. in a rush to assist at the bench.. then you will be cleaning up board... its NOT about the Temp rating that has some of the boys on the board knickers in a knot.. it is just that G/H doors must be built to withstand abuse..
I had bomb proof doors on my G/H that lasted 7 years! with only one patch .. they were slammed ocassionally really hard.. I cant see board doors unless you and your assitant are 'danity' blowers!!

LOL.. let us know how they work out!

[Steve Stadelman]

What time is it Doug?

[Pete VanderLaan]

I am not advoating making the doors out of fiberboard. I said put it over a kast-o-lite 30 door. It will fail as a door by itself.

[Doug Chaussee]

:) Glad you liked that one Steve! Feel free to use it at will.

As I stated before, I built a set of fiberboard doors for a GH in a high school setting and it took the complete abuse of the kids for over 18 months. These doors may wind up on a roller track so there will be no slamming of the doors at all. If I do hinges and they fall apart it will be no big deal and I will cast another set. The cast doors I have on the big GH now have taken a pounding in our public access studio and although still functional, the double door design sucks and the castable is in poor shape. Thanks to all for their concern in all aspects of where this post has gone. I do understand the "company line" and certainly respect the opinions of the respondants. No need to apologize for anything, if I was pissed, I'd tell ya! ;)

[Ed Mc Donald]

Doug, and Pete,
Good valid info. on applications and ventilation.
Certainly, this work,as well as Life, has inherent risks. Mi Vida Loca.
What's also risky on bulletin boards like this, is posting honest thoughts,opinions and questions, and having them scrutinized, judged,dismissed, ego tripped and yes;..even laughed at.
Upside is that its a great site for solid information,meaningful dialogue and support ,then you can make your own informed opinion. Thanks.
Certainly good luck on your project Doug.

[Pete VanderLaan]

Originally posted by Ed Mc Donald
Doug, and Pete,

What's also risky on bulletin boards like this, is posting honest thoughts,opinions and questions, and having them scrutinized, judged,dismissed, ego tripped and yes;..even laughed at.

*****************

I like to see a spade called a spade here Ed. If a product sucks, we'll issue our opinions that that is the case. Vendors don't like it and I have been threatened by attorneys. Now it's just my opinion that certain products suck. When I was editing the Newsletter for GAS during that brief horrible miscalculation, , I tried to use the same philosophy and the executive committee panicked and muzzled me so I quit. While I may make enemies with my stances and politics, you know who I am. and I know glass studio operations pretty well. You just can't say nationalistic xenophoblic things about the French.

..and Doug, I think that straight fiberboard doors are really not a good idea. They are really going to create a lot of Shmutz. Make them out of Kastolite 30 and cover the kastolite with the fiberboard. Mine last forever. .

[Steve Stadelman]

Always freeze sashimi for at least 12 hours before consumption.

[Pete VanderLaan]

Is this a good time to discuss the risks of Salmonella and the importance of good Hygiene practices?

[Jordan Kube]

Well at the risk of being dragged through the streets by our moderators, anybody want to guess what Bill Morris uses for gloryhole doors? Fiber blanket pinned into expanded steel which is welded to the door frames. The doors are rigidized and they work. I'm guessing they work better than board would. You will not be catching me doing this anytime soon nor do I think it's a good idea, just saying that it works.

[Pete VanderLaan]

well, I might not drag you thru the streets but I would consider mugging you in an alley. Billy makes great work but that doesn't translate into being an example to follow on equipment. Steve is getting ready to make furnaces for Dale.

[Ken Peterson]

My guess on the Billy thing is that when the fiber doors are closed, that the area right behind it pops back up to temp really quickly. I bet it works really well.

[Doug Chaussee]

Well, I went ahead and made the fiberboard doors as I had planned. Now that they have been in use for about 6 months I wanted to post the results, pro and con. The material is Duraboard, 2" thick and rated to 2600 F. I treated the whole board with rigidizer and then coated it with a thin wash of sairset fire cement. After a few days of drying time I mounted the half panels in the frames and secured it to the frame with SS L shaped brackets. I heated the GH slowly allowing the board to heat evenly and slowly. As usual, the smell was strong caused the business across the street to ask me what I was burning. (A good exhaust system at work!) After getting to full temp. the doors were straight and working well. They do make an crackling sound when opened as they cool quickly. They are sliding doors so there is no drama banging them shut. I had forgotten that I should not have coated the interior with the wash until they had seasoned in the heat and therefore they suffered some contraction/expansion damage on the interior face. This will be eliminated if you apply the sairset after a few heats according to my refractory rep. The sairset coating keeps glass from eating the material and if it chips off it can be easily repaired. These doors are light and inexpensive and so far have held up well in our teaching and renting environment. Replacement of the doors would take less than an hour. I know the antifrax members will never like these doors but they are a viable option. The door opening is 6" and interior is a 12" ring.

[Tom Fuhrman]

Doug: I've got some similiar doors to yours that have been going for over 15 years and occasionally need to have the board replaced, and yes they are a health hazard, but so is everything else. but I refuse to give up beer. and with a little bit of luck I'll qualify to start collecting my Social security checks next year. Everything in moderation is a lot better than anything in excess.

[Ben Rosenfield]

I have a generous amount of Morco Fiber Adhesive (from Tom at Hi-Temp) left over from mortaring the bricks for my furnace and thought I might use some to seal up what little frax is visible in the gasket behind the heat-retention ring in my glory (I trimmed the excess away long ago). The Fiber Adhesive is good to 3000F. Might I be able to use it effectively to seal off the frax, or should I just get a wash, rigidizer, or something else?

[Bert Weiss]

I have been told a few things about alumino-silicate fibers. Like Pete said, they have been used in industry for a long time now and there are no known cases of illness in humans caused by the fibers. What they did was implant fibers in the lungs of lab rats and they developed cancer. So don't have surgery and get fiberfrax implants.

Taking common sense precautions is certainly recommended.

Colloidal silica turns to crystabolite after being heated past (I don't knoiw exactly what temp). This is a dangerous form of silica. Colloidal alumina is a safer product to use for rigidizing. You can buy it in powder form from the manufacturer.
http://www.wesbond.com/wesolok_db.htm

[Rollin Karg]

Originally posted by Ben Rosenfield
I have a generous amount of Morco Fiber Adhesive (from Tom at Hi-Temp) left over from mortaring the bricks for my furnace and thought I might use some to seal up what little frax is visible in the gasket behind the heat-retention ring in my glory (I trimmed the excess away long ago). The Fiber Adhesive is good to 3000F. Might I be able to use it effectively to seal off the frax, or should I just get a wash, rigidizer, or something else?

I have used sairset in a similar situation and it worked well. We just thinned it a little with water

[Kraig Richard]

Originally posted by Doug Chaussee
Does anyone have a good method of securing the 2" frax board to the angle iron door frame for a gloryhole? I had planned on securing them with sliding SS clips which would be screwed to the outside of the frames which would be an easy set up and removal when I have to replace the board. Thanks!

I like frax board door better than a folded blanket door because it's less hassle to build. As stated here they can warp.

One way to secure frax board I've had luck with is using a lot of short screws to hold a piece of sheetmetal to the cold side of the frax board. This sheetmetal is pre-drilled for the screws and has bolts in place facing outward used for mounting to the actual door mechanism. I went with an all frax door (no outer angle iron) and a short piece of unistrut affixed to the tin.

Attached the sheet metal back to unistrut adjustably fixed to a high quality multi section drawer slide. (80$ to $110) As far as clean goes ... the 100's of ball bearings in the slide (mounted underneith) never seemed to get too dusted up. Occasionaly gave it a WD-40 rinse out.

Very light. Pull back a hair slide open as wide as need be, and set the door back down in contact with the throat/furnace opening. The door is then sealed except where it's open. The drawer slide was able to easily flex enough for the pull back. Top of the door was wider than the bottom giving me a very small aperature if I only opened it a little.

After months and years, the hot face of the door does develop thin layers glass maybe from vapor. Theese layers hang on pretty well and werent a problem for me.

[Ben Rosenfield]

Originally posted by Rollin Karg
I have used sairset in a similar situation and it worked well. We just thinned it a little with water Excellent. Thank you.