The Amazing Race

[Brent Hickenbotham]

I just watched a crew pull 600 lbs out of a 600lb pot in 8 and a half hours. They turned up at 4:00 threw in 600lbs over 7 hours layering cullet and batch and expected to have crystal glass at 7:00 a.m. the next morning. the glass wasn't crystal at all, so what I'm asking is...Is it physically possible to get 600 lbs of perfect glass in less than 15 hours of charging and cooking? Either gas or electric.

[Rollin Karg]

Brent, not where I live. It usually takes us at least 24 hours. A lot of our stuff is thick and the quality of the glass is important. If this an electric furnace that slows it down some. They heat up slower and recover slower so you have to take that into account. If they want to pull 600 pounds a day they will need 2 furnaces. You better get busy!!

Our 400 pound pot furnaces are programed to reach 2250 about and hour before we get there in the morning. We load every hour for eight hours. Then raise the temp to 2300 for 12 hours and then it takes about 6 hours to bring them down to our working temp of 2000. This gives us good glass every time. If you try to hurry it up you pay cost in quality.

Using cullet can help the melt but it must be clean and not too much fine stuff. Also if they did drain the tank pretty far down that helps keep the quality up. Loading over a large heel too many times will also give you poor glass.
Rollin

[Eben Horton]

in my opinipon it depends n how wide the pot or tank is- the shallower the glass, the less time you need.

[Pete VanderLaan]

I think Rollin and Eben are both right but you neglect to say what the melt temp and recovery times are. It's possible but you may have to change temperatures as well as refractories. I think at 2550F-2600F it would happen. Don't use EC pots though. As a matter of fact, don't use any pot at at all.

[Brent Hickenbotham]

pete, do those temps not boil the glass, i know that in electric its different, but when I was in turkey they cooked at those temps and the glass sucked.

[Ed Schmid]

Yup,
at Wheaton Village/CGCA we melted roughly 600 lbs of batch overnight in the day tanks all the time. 'course the gas-fired furnaces were raging hot, roughly up to 2600', and we'd throw in as much as we dare at each charge.
The turn down and squeeze certainly helped and we did have decent melts the next day.
Two other things: the furances took a beating and we didn't have to pay for the gas bills!
It is possible to load that much glass, but charging at the right times and getting the program right takes a bit of practice and skill.

[Cynthia England]

at Wheaton Village/CGCA we melted roughly 600 lbs of batch overnight in the day tanks all the time. 'course the gas-fired furnaces were raging hot,
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Yep.. key word in that paragraph is GAS -FIRED!!

I have yet to meet an electric furnace with any balls!! (hope thats not too sexist!! :rotfl: :rotfl:

MT

[James Ennis]

we melt 500 lbs in our freestanding pots
max temp never over 2450,start at 3:30pm and by 7am the glass is finished,
not seed free, but no problem if you use
alot of color, then we let it sit for 1 day and its seed free. our 800 lb tanks are the same way, you can use it at 7 am, not
seed free but the glass is just fine.all
these are gas furnaces and the tanks are shalow and wide! that is why they work
well for us, and we love spruce pine!
if your charger is just loading and not
watching the melt, you might get
good glass you might not,so he or she
should not be the lowest payed in the
shop,but the best you can find.

[Brent Hickenbotham]

cynthia, we can make an electric with as big a balls as you want, but you don't want to see your electric bill for that month.

[Ben Rosenfield]

Originally posted by Brent Hickenbotham
cynthia, we can make an electric with as big a balls as you want, but you don't want to see your electric bill for that month.

Can you also make it out of the kind of rubber that really looks like human skin?

[Brent Hickenbotham]

Originally posted by Ben Rosenfield
Can you also make it out of the kind of rubber that really looks like human skin?

Ben, for king of gourmet shit talkin, i could just about pull anything off. and only you would ask that.:chuckle:

[Pete VanderLaan]

Some formulas are far more conducive to being melted really hot. I'm not saying I think it's a good idea, I'm just saying that there are people who do it. Seattle in general melts too hot in my opinion. Dogs sniffing dogs.

[David Patchen]

Ben,

You haven't seen the new StadelScrotum model? Makes the best white opaline glass on the planet, but no matter what, don't ever kick it.

Ok, I'm over the line...;)

[Steve Stadelman]

On a friendlier note, you have personally seen how much testosterone the running furnace at Public has right David? Care to inform Tart?

[Jordan Kube]

Yeah, the only electric cynthia has worked out of is an underpowered (in my opinion) 300 pounder.

[Wes Hunting]

This thread is starting to smell like West Side Story.

[Brian Gingras]

ok, not a huge furnace bu...I'm up to 105lbs...5 charges, over 8 hours...8 hours later blowing good glass, no seeds, no cords. It all about the power, power it right and your good to go. I'm running sp87 and I've lowered my charge temps to 2250 with these results

[James Ennis]

"Dogs sniffing dogs."

Big dogs.

[Ben Rosenfield]

Originally posted by Wes Hunting
This thread is starting to smell like West Side Story. Womb to tomb; sperm to worm.

[Pete VanderLaan]

Originally posted by James Ennis
"Dogs sniffing dogs."

Big dogs.
***********************************
But most of the time not big dogs. Just living in Seattle isn't enough. One guy says he melts at 2500F and the other has to melt at 2550F. It's dumb. You want to think that the Seattle group has a leg up on technical stuff. They don't. Lots of times they are real idiots both as individuals and as groups.

[Jordan Kube]

Mark at Tacoma Glassblowing is melting at 2350 in his 600lb and it works great.

[Brent Hickenbotham]

Jim Mongraine is cooking at 2375 for 7 and a half hours and he is getting great glass every night.

he also has a 600 #er.

people think they are big dogs whether they are seattle or not.

[Scott Novota]

I am a big dog and don't even have a furnace.


*FLEX*...I think I just hurt myself.



Scott.
.

[Cynthia England]

well yea.. aaahem.. dont u work out of there?? (doh!! )
and
and
and
I am NOT sold on Elec.. thats all. period. nuttin to do w/ Steve
.. I just LIKE and Wanna see that ol flame.. and andd when my t-shirt gets all sweaty and wet and it is -20 below out I wanna dry it out..
and
and
when I charge.. I wanna the glass to MELT.. !!
and
and
yea the first elec furnace I worked out of last spring was sorta a weeeny... but the one this fall was not to bad.. but still..
ya froze yur ass off in the AM till the GH kicked in
and
and
I live in a place where Nat gas is cheeep..
and
and
I love the sound of the furance.. loved to pull my
lawn chair up and get a good book while charging...
very soothing!!!
you can hear mice creep w/ 'Lecrtic"


Gasy Tart!!

[Pete VanderLaan]

Gas won't stay cheap anywhere. If China will pay more for it, your suppliers will sell it to them first.

I too love the roar of gas but those days are fast disappearing along with all the studios that can no longer compete in a saturated selling market. Electric is a lot safer too.

[James Ennis]

Why it gotta be a east coast/west coast
thing?

[Pete VanderLaan]

I think it is more pockets of influence. I see stuff done at Penland by hoards that I never see anywhere else in the country like horsehair wheels for pumice. The same applies to curious puntys in Santa Fe. Seattle has a thing for melting really hot, I don't know why beyond Lino's influence with the rosin glasses.

[James Ennis]

Its cold and wet. thats the only thing that
I can think of, never having been to pilchuck, I cant say if it has any influence
on charging methods, but everyone has
there own way.

[Tom Fuhrman]

All the guys at the WV and Ohio factories have been doing this forever. They charge their day tanks, 1000lb. every night and have good glass the next a.m. Pete hit the nail on the head when he mentioned about surface area and depth of the glass and the use of gas. It all depends opn your setup and what your time and your help's time is worth. Everything is a tradeoff. Best advice is buy property with a gas well on it. There are still a few around. Not big enough for commercial use but able to power a small furnace and glory. Othe roption is to go work with Franklin in Trinidad where electric and propane are both very cheap. That's why Alcoa is building a new plant there.

[Kraig Richard]

Flame impingement helps.

[Brent Hickenbotham]

Originally posted by Cynthia England
well yea.. aaahem.. dont u work out of there?? (doh!! )
and
and
and
when I charge.. I wanna the glass to MELT.. !!


Yea I work for steve but I also blew glass out of other furnaces long before I went to work for him.
and
and
and
If the glass didn't melt so well why are people saying it does.
and
and
and
whatever tart.

everything has its advantages and disadvantages and you like what you like, ok, but we build damn good equipment. you don't have to be rude.

[Eben Horton]

Originally posted by Kraig Richard
Flame impingement helps.

pete sell more pots :p

[Pete VanderLaan]

Kraig is my new best friend.

[David Patchen]

Forgot this thread.

Tart, I've been working out of one of Steve's electrics for the past 8 months or so and it rocks. It's nice and quiet, doesn't blow hot air on you during gathering and those pretty glowing elements light up the inside nicely. I'm not the charge guy, but our tech has no problem in turning 500lbs of SP87 bags into beautiful glass in pretty short order. It just *works*.

[Kraig Richard]

Originally posted by Eben Horton
pete sell more pots :p

Flame impingement on the glass surface.

Industry recently embraced this novel concept for the giant float glass furnace. It was in a recent Glass Industry or Industrial Heating magazine. Glass impingement makes target walls last a lot longer since the walls are no longer a target. Along with improved refractory life, they realized vastly fuel saving and increased pull rates a great deal.

Besides being appropriate technolgy for the use of flame in melting, I find this configuration more adventageous for reheating, then a bottom or side fired setup.

Down draft is also an interesting proven economical concept invented by mudslingers long before the art of glass. Down draft works well with top fireing flame impingement.

Comfort level from top fired down draft in my experiance is better then many knucle heaters Ive gathered from. This is of particular interest when one is in and out of the furnace for hundreds of gathers a day.

My experiance in this configuration is strictly with manual adjust gas/air and I am not certain if hi-low fire controls would be as suitable.

As far as selling more pots I don't know... I have never been over enamored with store bought pots. I do know buying bulk private formula pugmilled de-aired clay is a lot easier then mixing up your own for building pots. The trouble lies in the large minimum order.