"pilchuck syndrome"

[Terry Craig]

know any body with it?
"pilchuck syndrome" : when a glass worker believes that there is one, and only one, "right" way to do things in the studio. the patient useually will site how they have seen an italian, or other glass master (or anyone with more skill) do it this way, so it is the right way, therefore, the only way to do it "right", and anyother way will cause certain failure of the work, even if, for years this person has performed a task in the "wrong" way with out ever having suffered from failure.
those affected with this may not have ever been to pilchuck or even know anyone personaly who has been to pilchuck, they may have just seen a video or a demo by someone who has more expierience than themselves.

this week in the studio we have a guy who has this bad, he has convinced the students that if they don't hit the punty with a motion that travels away from the piece, that their piece will breake as a result due to the vibrations traveling toward the piece. and this is only the start of the rules he has begun to instil, I have to get a piece of 2" oak dowel cut it to exactly 12" and sand one end so that it is square, this way the students will be able to take there work off the punty without fear of it cracking. how we lived all these years without it is just amazing.
the only right way to work glass is his way, anything else and it will just fail. all this time I thought the way I did it was fine, geeze how I managed to get by, buy a house and build my own studio and others...its just amazing.

[David Patchen]

I live to mock these people. I don't think it's appropriately named though. As much as Pilchuck has it's own associated BS, I wouldn't ascribe this to the place.

It's just foolish closed-mindedness, mindless attraction to process and a lack of understanding of *why* glass does what it does and the complexity of the material's properties. I'd guess there's a high corrolation between these types of ppl and religiosity and conservative beliefs. These are the kind of people who like rules in all areas of their life. Whatever. I'll continue to use any old beat up piece of wood to take my work of the punty perfectly 99% of the time.

[Rich Samuel]

...I have to get a piece of 2" oak dowel cut it to exactly 12"...

What a jerk. I thought everybody knew it has to be precisely 12.000726", and the oak, of course, has to be harvested during a full moon.

Some people... ;) :D :headbang:

[Pete VanderLaan]

Originally posted by Terry Craig

"this week in the studio we have a guy who has this bad, he has convinced the students...

********************
Um... who's in charge here? That sort of stuff left unchecked will just cause a shitload of trouble.

( not to mention the risk of an explosion caused by severe anal retention.)

[Rick Sherbert]

I think the clinical name is "rectal/cranial inversion" or RCI

is this guy an instructor in your shop? Is he working for you, a renter or a (semi) well known dude?

I agree with Pete, gotta reduce the madness.

[Dan Buchacher]

Terry - Go ahead and make the special bonker for the dude, but crack it and barely glue it back together so you cant tell. Let the guy use it and when the bonker cracks apart in three pieces instead of the glass piece coming off the pipe, then quickly grab the long green zuchini that you secretly brought into the shop that day for this exact purpose, and demonstrate to the class that any hard garden vegatble will also work very well as a punty bonker, plus you can eat it afterwards

Also, set up a secret agreement with the class that anytime they hear you discretely humming the theme from Twilight Zone when he is making dumb statements means that he is from outer space as well as a silly person saying silly things. I have set this secret code up with my sons for when my wife makes dubious statements and it works very well

[Barb Sanderson]

I think alot of us have met, worked with or had work for us people with this syndrome but I hestitate to call it "Pilchuck syndrome". I think it's an unexpected result of particular instructors. I try to make sure whomever works for me knows that there is NO one right way to do ANYTHING. I sometimes have people look at me as though I was crazy. Obviously we all do things the way WE like, how it works well for us, etc. It's also difficult to watch a student struggling with something and not tell them how to do it better, faster, etc....according to us anyway. I know that when I was a newbie I heard over and over again, NO! That's not the right way to do "X", etc.... I heard it so much (maybe because I'm stubborn and anticonventional and wouldn't listen) that I make sure to tell any newbie now to explore and try new and different methods for anything they want to make. Same thing with lefties - I taught a couple of lefties who were forced to work right handed in previous classes. I told them to try it both ways and do what feels right for them. Sorry....this is one of my personal peeves....thus the rant....

Barb

[Scott Hegan]

I used to have this syndrome bad until I realized that it wasn't getting me anywhere. That being said, I prefer to hit the punty with something wooden rather than metal. It's probably just superstition.

[Terry Craig]

well he's an instructor that i have to put up with for two more weeks and this is his third year here and every year i have to make all these changes to the set up for him while he tells the students that the studio is set up all wrong and that is why they can't blow glass right.
the name is not ment to slight pilchuck, but it just seems that most of these guys will "quaote" pichuck as the place they saw or learned the "right way" of doing it. the think that if its done there it must be the right and only way, any thoughts on a different name? the list of "rules" this guy has is something else, acording to him it is imposible to blow glass without a gloryhole, nobody in the world uses a furnace for reheating. and you can't blow solo or work without without a hose extension etc.
argg!!!!

[Lia Howe]

Now Terry, is there any instructor that comes in and doesn't rant about how their way is the right way. I have taken that course and I can think of at least a few. I am learning that if an instructor doesn't make their "mark" on the student population then maybe we won't remember them for their "my way is the only way" I can think of one teacher who I have taken lossons from for at least 10 years and now he finally "alllows" me to enter the bench my own way. Actually I think it is the way you taught me Terry.
My father told me to learn somethings from everybody you meet (or take lessons from) Keep what you need and file the rest away because you never know when you will need it or finally understand what the teacher was trying to teach you.
Just my two cents worth.
P.S. I learned a lot from the instructor that is driving Terry crazy.
Lia

[Allan Gott]

....easy there Terry............

I have been lucky enough to watch many different glassmakers on the Pilchuck pads - maestros, hacks and savants. I'd describe my "Pilchuck Syndrome" as the realization that there are many ways to get to many points....all valid if they work for you.

[Wes Hunting]

The only rule in art is there are no rules.

[David Patchen]

It's time to name names. Who is this instructor?

I like the zuccini idea. In Murano, I saw guys taking pieces off of punties by banging the punty at the end with both hands. Kind of like if you clapped and the punty was in between your hands. I don't think their hands were 12" long and made of Oak. ;)

I used to argue with a good friend when we were both learning to blow glass. He was fixated on learning *the one right way* to make things like tumblers, etc. I on the other hand, wanted to experiment with everything all at once. Despite our different approaches to learning to understanding glass and all the arguments that ensued, we're still very good friends and blow weekly together.

But who is this quirky instructor?

[Allan Gott]

Originally posted by David Patchen
It's time to name names. Who is this instructor?

While I concur heartily David, the trouble is where do you stop naming names??

I'd be the first one to admit that if I ever had the opportunity to "teach" there are things that I would advocate simply because they work for me, always have and always will. Others, maybe lots of others would disagree. I could care less.

Even Mr. Craig, with all due respect, would and does have detractors. Sorry Terry, it's true and you know it.

My sage and early AM advice. Lighten up, rearrange the furniture, put it back when he's done. You are getting paid for doing a job, yes????

[Mike Aurelius]

This is his third year? Why keep "inviting" him back if he gives you so much grief?

To quote Ahnold "Hasta la vista, baby"!

[Lia Howe]

Maybe this troubling instructor found a way to try and un-teach a bad habit taught by another instructor in the same course.
This other instructor taught us to knock off by hitting the pipe or punty with the file. A sharpened file. I hope Jeff L. is not reading this. The file always made a mark on the pipe or punty. After a while the pipes where in awful shape. Terry hade to sand them down to help remove some of the marks. Remember newbies think the harder you hit it the better, and then the
bigger the mark.
As for naming the instructor, would it make you all feel better to be able to say "oh that "guy"" I don't know an instructor or artist that doesn't think their way is the only way. Sometimes I think that saying "he who casts the first stone..." should be used more often.
This is just my opinion. I think that learning from lots of different types of teachers helps you become the artist you want to be.Lia
P.S. Is there a Studio Tech out there that has never pulled out their hair about the requests being made by an instructor or visiting artist?

[Brian Gingras]

Originally posted by Lia Howe
[B I don't know an instructor or artist that doesn't think their way is the only way. [/B]

funny, I teach..and I teach several ways to do everything depending on how your most comfortable...I've had enough classes to see different methods, and I'll actually go out of my way to point out how I was shown this way, and this way, and this way, and to tell them it's glass, and the way that works is the right way. Easy enough.

[Scott Novota]

A fundy glassblower?! Say it isn't so!


Scott.
.

[David Patchen]

I say name names because:
1. It's good for folks on this board to know what instructors are inflexible and all about process and which aren't. It can help them in selecting classes they might take in the future. Perhaps some folks *like* being told exactly what to do and this guy would be ideal. It works both ways.
2. If one behaves nicely, we hear about it. If one behaves not-so-great people hesitate to identify. This doesn't make sense to me. If you don't like your reputation, then behave differently. Keeping it a secret helps no one.
3. It's always good to be honest. I'm not suggesting casting aspersions, but I think it's fine to criticise (or compliment) someone's teaching technique.

My $.02

[Terry Craig]

yes alan your right we all have "our own right way" and yes there are some things that i teach in my classes that are stressed not as the "right" way but the safe way for now, when you get better try it this way. i have been lucky enough to teach at many studios and work in to many to remember, ive tried to do it just about everyway ive seen it done, lia's right just about every teacher who comes here feels that they have to re train the students of their bad habbits from the prievious teacher, i just don't think that they should be saying how the others are wrong and my way is the right way crap.
iam not saying that i think he has nothing to offer, on the contrary i think he is vary good at what he does and has a lot of skill at it, he just seems to feel that he must cut up the studio, equipment and other instructors while answearing questions like he is yoda......sorry i just can't stand when someone who is sapposed to be teaching interm. glassblowing tells a student who is strugling with an offcenter bubble that "don't center the glass, center yourself." i just don't think it helps, nor does telling them that the reason that their piece failed was because they did not hit the punty in an upword motion and that they hit the punt with the back of a knife and not wood.
this was not ment to be a bash this guy or to sugest that pilchuck is the cause of it thread, just a discus the "syndrome" thread, so i will not name names as it will do no good.
your right lia there are a lot of bad habbits tought here and if i could, i would change it, but alas i cannot, so i must stand by and waight for them to leave then, rearange the studio and clean up the mess left behind.
anybody want to hire a studio tech for next winter?

[Terry Craig]

we are lucky here at the school to have a wide range of instructors, with a wide range of skill and abileties, and yes each one comes with their own set of "rules" but most front those "rule" with "this is what works for me, try it "my" way and make a choice" and this is how it should be, try a little bit of everything at the buffet then focus on what you like best.
but to stand at the end and mock those who came before and those who will come after as not serious because they don't do it my way is just plain foolish.
i believe there is time for manners in the studio, it is ok to thank someone for a good punty or bit.
i don't think the assistant should be the ass in assistant, i think they should try not to be the ass in assistant.
a good punty is one that come off when you want it to, not one that has been marvered to the perfect shape for two minutes.
solo blowing is fun and it is not imposable or foolish to think that you could make money doing it.
the only right way, is the way that works for you.

[Kenny Pieper]

Years ago When I took a position to run the shop at Penland the first class was taught by someone I thought was very old school. one of their first comments was where are the files for breaking off ? My first inclination was to show them a better way. Well the experience of working there for some time showed me that it was much better to just support whatever the instructor wanted to teach. One example was with Billy Bernstein. I don't think that he would mind if I said this about him but he has a very untechniqual way of going about things. Part of me wanted to say "there is a much better way to do this" but when I look at his work it is really quite impressive and when the class was over there was really good work from the students. I learned that if the equipment was not getting hurt beyond lots of repair and no one was in danger just let it go. That was really my job there. I know one instructor that was convinced that a brass rod would give just the right vibration for knocking off punties. One instructor insisted that having a wooden rail on the left was the only way to bonk off a piece to a punty. Even Pino had special request for rails. I had 5 different types of rails to screw on to the benches depending on what the instructor wanted. They all had merit.Truth is we all have our own personalities that come out in the way we work and in the work its self. Thank god. I learned quite a bit from the ones that worked much different that I. We all can if we are open to seeing a differnt way.

[Terry Craig]

yes kenny i agree, but sometimes there has to be a limit to what is considered a different way and just down right stupid.
i to have learned tones from watching and helping people do things differently than i would do it and some of those thing i have adopted into my own bag of tricks. what i was really getting at, the people (not just this one guy i have to deal with) who will suddenly go off on you for doing whatever in the shop (something that you learned from them years ago even) that you have done for most of your glass life and tell you that not only is it the wrong way but that your piece will now crack because of how you did it.
its the guys that say "lino (or anyone else) told me this way was right, so that way is wrong, it does'nt matter if it works it's wrong"
i have one guy who every year now (in writing ) will tell me the yokes are to high and will make me cut and adjust the hight while he watches (they used to be adjustable but he insisted that be changed to welded) then the next week he come we fight because he says they are to high or low and must be moved up or down back to where they where the last time i adjusted them for him, he is the only person who has ever had me adjust them, i have all the notes from him and show them to him every time we go through this little hell. once he had them cut and welded by the local welder and then raised the whole thing up on bricks cause it was to low. you cant winn with these guys.

[Allan Gott]

Where's Skeels when you really need him??

[Hugh Jenkins]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kenny Pieper
[B]Years ago When I took a position to run the shop at Penland the first class was taught by someone I thought was very old school. one of their first comments was where are the files for breaking off ?

Hmmmm. I think I resemble that remark.

[Ed Schmid]

Take it from the guy that wrote the book:

"I believe there is no right or wrong way to blow glass. There are just some methods that may work easier for you or some other glassblowers" (that can save time and effort).

Like Brian's reply, I usually try to show all the people I instruct some of the methods that I like to use, and often will inform them from whom I had learned it, but am also reluctent in telling them this is the only way to do it.

I was taught first how to blow solo some 25 years ago, and use the file to saw pieces off the pipe, and struggle to get any work done.
That was THE way you did it back then and there weren't many other options.

Then I learned over the years at Pilchuck watching the masters and everyone else blowing glass that there are many ways of making a successful piece of glass, and that teamwork certainly improved the quality, complexity and community of glassmaking.
Clearly there were many different methods and schools of thought regarding how to blow glass.

The instructors that I understood the most from were the ones that could actually give me something of a scientific explanation of why it works, or why they think it works- (e.g. that striking the punty at the correct spot will create a harmonic vibration in the rod transferring the energy down the line to the tip-[similar to plucking a stringed instrument or striking a tuning fork]- and that may help insure a swift break-off).

I still blow alot of work solo and know my own limits in terms of complexity and scale. I also love working in teams.
Please reassure the students that there are many ways to blow glass, and like Kenny says, try to take away what works for you.

If it ain't broke, there's no need to fix it (or your way of doing things)! I still will allow people to file their work off the pipe if it does the job for them...but I don't want to be around all that glass dust when they do it (if you have ever seen this done in direct sunlight and all the glass particles flying off the moile you might think twice about it or another way of doing it).

[Larry Cazes]

Hmmm. Reading through this thread makes me thankful for the flexibility and knowledge of the people I have learned from over the last 2 years. They know who they are, thanks for passing on the craft.

If I were in Terry's shoes, I would allow the students to make the decision to bring back this instructor year after year. If the class continues to fill up and the feedback is positive, then he continues to teach. Like any other product, if the demand is there, continue to offer it.

[Scott Novota]

There are many right ways but I can think of a couple of things that are wrong every time.


Scott.
.

[Pete VanderLaan]

I know quite a number of people who have their work in the permanent collection at Corning who happily used a file to knock off their work from the pipe.

When I taught my first color class, I was given a fair amount of shit for having a pair of needle nosed pliers on the bench.
By the end of the class, quite a number of the participants were planning to have them on their benches as well. It isn't saying that tweezers aren't a good tool, they are ( some are). It's saying that there are a lot of ways to get to a good piece of artwork.

Visiting artists want to be comfortable with their working surroundings and some are way more flexible than others. Dale was one of the most flexible I have ever seen. Fritz was pretty rigid. Lino is pretty rigid. Gianni Toso is pretty funny. I still would not want someone coming and dictating absolutes though.

[John Riepma]

Since all of the "only right methods" appear to have been discovered within the last 50 years or so, it really makes me wonder how the Portland Vase and all that other stuff I see in the museum at Corning ever got made before the invention of the file, blowpipe extension, butter knife etc.:rolleyes:

[Jay Holden]

In my first year as an apprentice at Steuben I worked with a gaffer who was a lot like this guy only worse. I had to get up from the bench the same way every time and go in the gloryhole the same way every time and block the same way every time and so on. If I deviated from his instructions I received a punch in the kidneys or a kick in the shins or worse. That's the way gaffers at Steuben used to teach back in the day. You listened, you did it the way he said or you hurt. In later years He gave up gaffering and became my servitor. The very first piece he served for me was a Porpous. He handed it to me and I took a quick look at it and kicked him right in the left shin and said next time give it to me the way I told you too. He said " I knew you were going to do that". "I'm glad you listened to me".
Jay

[Marcel Braun]

At your story Jay...

Haven't seen you post lately. How's the new spot?

[Terry Craig]

I have always encuraged the students to learn what they can, try it so and so's way and then trim out what you don't like and use what you can. I agree there are many was to do it, I'am not saying that his way is wrong, what I am saying is that his reasons for some of what he does are not sound and that he is wrong for insisting that there is only one "right" way and that is his way, anything different and your piece will fail along with your carreer.

[Eben Horton]

IF we can compare glass blowers to musicians, there are some musicians that are technicly great at what they do.. They could be an amazing guitarist and play any song in the world that they have heard before, but sadly they dont have a single song that they wrote them selves. You can usually find these savants playing in a cover band.

There are glass blowers who may be technically gifted and can make some of the sickest venetian cane pickups, goblets, etc, but sadly that is all that they are capable of making...

A glass blower that is inflexible in the the way they blow glass, is in my opinion a glass blower who has a poor relationship with the medium. If you truely understand glass and what it does, you can blow a beautiful piece of glass with just a blowpipe and a marver... thats it. Oh and a 12 inch oak dowel. I swear by them as well. :p

[Allan Gott]

Well, since Ed won't come out to play..........

Fer cryin' out loud TC, you're the tech. If I hire you as a studio tech does that ensure that you'll undermine every instructor you don't agree with, while getting paid??

Two words..........."you're fired"

Originally posted by Terry Craig
anything different and your piece will fail along with your carreer.
Look at it this way. This dude is thinning the herd for glassmakers who really know what they're doing.

[Greg Vriethoff]

I was unfortunate/fortunate to have the experience several years ago of entering a university glass program at the same time a new professor was hired to run the program. The students were still working the same way that studio glass artists did in the 60's; solo, bastard files, big cookie feet on floppy bowls and vases. It was as if everything was frozen in a time-warp.

This new professor wanted to breathe new life into the program. I guess I was lucky in the sense that I was coming from the same headspace, so we got along well. All the other grad students had to be dragged along kicking and screaming.

I guess my point is that while this instructor that Terry is talking about sounds like an anal-retentive f##k, there is nothing more frustrating than students that suck-up class time trying to undermine the-for lack of a better word- authority of the instructor. I always appreciated the fact that my graduate professor at least tried to impress upon all of his students that his way was not THE only way, but at the end of the day, he was in charge of directing the program so decisions, like how the shop was going to be configured and who was going to be hired-in to teach courses, would be his.

I have a case of this so-called "syndrome" but I try to keep it in check. Sometimes people just need to shut up and listen. Maybe they'll learn something.

[Greg Vriethoff]

Originally posted by Ed Schmid
I still will allow people to file their work off the pipe if it does the job for them...but I don't want to be around all that glass dust when they do it...

And if they use their own pipes. I don't want anyone gouging-up my pipes or the school's.

Work however you want as long as it doesn't interfere with my, or anyone else's, ability to work how I/they want to.

[David Patchen]

Anyone who thinks they know the "right" way to do anything in glass doesn't understand the complexity of the matierial and is most likely an ass.

[Hugh Jenkins]

Since I raised my hand when files for knock off were discussed and gouging blowpipes has been added as an innuendo, I will make one more comment and retire. Using a tool or technique requires looking at all of its results. I have watched people dip expensive tweezers, (oh, pincetta, sorry) in water, whack with the back end of their Dino and Dona jacks, suspend both pipe and punty (over a sand box even) before knock off, bang the pipe on the back end of the bench, or even use a squirt bottle and a hammer, etc, etc, etc, and so long as it was successful for their work, and they paid for the tools, what's the difference.

The teeth on a file ($8 by the way) hold water very well. If the neck is well made, it only takes a scratch and a small tap to break away. The end result for any technique is success of the intended piece, not showmanship, not correctness, not like so-and-so. I think we lost one piece in the last year in break off or punty failure.

I am a tiger about damaging and bending pipes and punties. When I taught (note past tense), I would personally arrive in time to clean, straighten, grind if needed, even cut off, punties and pipes (jacks, shears, and tweezers too), so that they all were proper working tools. Sometimes they showed evidence of a lot of history. Nothing justifies abuse of your main tools, but they all have some limited lifespan and will show wear.

Blow pipes don't come with a rule book. How you use them has a lot to do with how long they hold up. I would say that I have seen more damage from how they are put "in the can" (especially in anger from a lost piece), than I have seen from various knock off techniques.

I think if teachers put the word "a" in place of "the" in explaining "... way to do it", it would make it a possibility rather than an absolute. That applies to a lot more than how you knock off.

[Kenny Pieper]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hugh Jenkins

The end result for any technique is success of the intended piece, not showmanship, not correctness, not like so-and-so.




I'm with Hugh. What ever works for you. I actually have a hatchet that I use for big thick necks that don't have a distinct break off line. It happens to be made in Sweden so we call it sweety. Just tap it around the neck in the desired spot until the piece comes off. Good for solid work too.

[Terry Craig]

just to make things clear here I have not and will not undermine this instructor, but what i have done and will continue to do is tell students that that is not either the only way or the only right way to do something.
it comes down to studio safety and customer satisfaction, do you really think that I am effecting his image to the students when his response to a frustrated student on getting a bubble center was "center yourself not the glass", the students get frustrated and then things get damaged or students leave the programe.
think I should be fired couse I "undermine" him because I correct him when he says you don't need a resporator in the grinding studio or glasses in the hot shop? sad I thought you ran a safe studio?
this tyhread as I stated before was not ment to bash this one person or bash pilchuck, it was ment to bash or just discus those people who think that "there is only one way, and that is my way, nothing else will work" the guys who insist that if you hit the pipe with anything other than a 12" piece of oak or what ever quircky little thing, that is more than likely based on a superstitious act than a machanical therory, the guys who only saw it on a video and formed their on theory on why it works as apposed how it works.
there are as many ways to blow glass as there are people blowing glass, the right way, is the way that works for you.

[Pete VanderLaan]

Schott Optical ( and Corning) requires use of respirators on their slurry machines for leaded glasses after having gotten data that their grinding personnel had elevated lead levels from inhalation of lead bearing mist at the roughers. You might pass that bit of info on.

And, I'm with Hugh. I would note that most of the glass work mentioned requiring such "finesse" is all Italian in nature which I currently consider to be the opiate of the masses in glass but is contributing about zero to any fresh design in glass. I might note that Billy Morris usually knocked off with a pair of tin snips by heating the massive punty and simply cutting through it. Technique is only useful if it gets you to a desired end. Technique by itself might imply that masturbation is better than straight up sex, a notion I don't subscribe to.

[Franklin Sankar]

QUOTE......the right way, is the way that works for you.

We cant ignore that there may be a better way.
Like it is slowly sinking in my hard head that bottle glass is hard to work with. But what else do I have to work with? or is it the right time now to switch? etc
Franklin

[Jay Holden]

Originally posted by Marcel Braun
At your story Jay...

Haven't seen you post lately. How's the new spot?


Not quite sure what you mean Marcel but good to hear from you. Still doing the COE33 project? That was amazing. I haven't been posting because I injured my back in Aug. and haven't blown glass since. I just went through a battery of tests and they basicly told me I'll never be able to do the off hand furnace stuff again 'ever" so I'm looking at lampworking after I retire. I have to see the Neuro Surgeon in March. Not a thrilling thought.
Jay.

[Hugh Jenkins]

Quote from Kenny Peiper

"I actually have a hatchet that I use for big thick necks that don't have a distinct break off line. It happens to be made in Sweden so we call it sweety."
---
I break my promised retirement from this thread.

Thanks Kenny, I guess I was a bit threatened by the file technique challenge. But, I can see a run on Swedish hatchets, (Olympic tool price?). "Hand me the Sweetie" will be my next Penland technique if I ever get the chance. I am "old school" by admission, but I know a good thing when I see it.

I think at this stage it would be fun to direct (I changed that from "teach") a class about "things I'd still like to learn". Mid career at least as a requirement. What could we teach each other or figure out in a class session of two weeks. Don't assume the teacher knows the answer.

[Allan Gott]

Oh yeah........my toolbox just got heavier too...........thanks Kenny, thanks a lot:rolleyes:

Sure TC, it's a fact, there are poor instructors out there, great ones too. Encourage the students to submit the evaluation forms, stand back and let the chips fall where they may.

You've got things pretty good in Tory Hill. Take a good look around at your home and family. Perspective is everything.

[Terry Craig]

thanks Alan, your right Iam rather lucky with what I have, my studio, my family and home.....but sadly, no matter how hard I seem to try I just can't get the school to hear me when it comes to some of our instructors and their lack of safety or respect for the students, they just turn to these people and ask them if I am right "should the students wear a mask in the cold studio?" and the instructors say "no, I don't, so why should they?".
I built this place, but they don't seem to think I know anything about it and it just makes me sad because I know that if they keep going this way not only will we lose the studio, but as it stands the province is looking at takeing the school, so i guess it is all just building up into me being a little bit off.
sorry for my tone
terry

[Randy Kaltenbach]

Unfortunately, you are up against the "not built here" bias. Everyone seems to think that the farther the experts have to travel, the better the experts are.

I am a god in Micronesia! ;) :p

[Franklin Sankar]

Is that an invisible God?
Franklin

[Jordan Kube]

Aren't they all?

[Mike Aurelius]

Originally posted by Terry Craig
thanks Alan, your right Iam rather lucky with what I have, my studio, my family and home.....but sadly, no matter how hard I seem to try I just can't get the school to hear me when it comes to some of our instructors and their lack of safety or respect for the students, they just turn to these people and ask them if I am right "should the students wear a mask in the cold studio?" and the instructors say "no, I don't, so why should they?".
I built this place, but they don't seem to think I know anything about it and it just makes me sad because I know that if they keep going this way not only will we lose the studio, but as it stands the province is looking at takeing the school, so i guess it is all just building up into me being a little bit off.
sorry for my tone
terry

Ok Terry -- there's a simple answer to this one: get proof that masks are needed, and present it to the administrators, then purchase said masks and make it "Standard Safety Practice" to wear masks at all times.

This is the only way to combat the old-school "tried and true" teachers who refuse to get with the safety program. Prove to them that breathing the dust is hazardous, then show the administrators that they are risking a major lawsuit should someone become ill.

Problem solved.

Same thing with wearing proper protective eyewear (and that does not mean sunglasses for crying out loud) in the Hot Shop.

[Doug Sheridan]

Osha makes surprise visits to my shop and as long as we show where we insist and recommend the use of personal safety gloves, masks, aprons, eyewear and have them available, it really is up to the individual to choose to use them. First aid kits and eye wash stations are required. If someone gets hurt, worker's comp and insurance covers them even if they work unprotected. Law suits are less likely if we can show we tried to protect them.

[Greg Vriethoff]

Originally posted by Doug Sheridan Law suits are less likely if we can show we tried to protect them.

Unfortunately, it does end up becoming a CYA situation. I had the dubious honor once of health and safety guru at a metal fab. shop with about twenty employees. It's a catch-22 because people ultimately want to be protected, but if you act like a nazi about it they get pissed.

You can lead a horse to water...

[Pete VanderLaan]

It probably isn't an OSHA requirement. I was simply pointing out that Schott figured it out on their own and were proactive.

[Mike Aurelius]

Actually, depending on the source of the dust and what the MSDS for the material says, dust masks AT THE VERY LEAST may be required...

For example, my MSDS for cerium oxide says to use a particulate mask equivalent to 3M P/N100 or better when mixing dry powder and during polishing operations if the polish becomes vaporized and airborne, plus required during all dry cleaning operations.

[Terry Craig]

well mike, I have, resporators and the proper eye wear come in the students safety kit that comes with registration and on the first day of class, I read over the studio rules with the students and give the students papers on the hazards of what they will come in contact with. but I am not always here (I have been cut down to 20 hours a week and expect more cuts to come) when Iam here the rules are fallowed and when I am not some instructors actually frown at students for being "worried about wearing that stuff" and when I point out the rules to the instructor they call me the "safety nazi" and then I get told to back off on the rules by admin. because, "these instructors are proffesionals, and know what they are doing, if they don't think it is needed then it is not" my hands are tied, and I feel that they may soon cut them off to save money

[Allan Gott]

Originally posted by Mike Aurelius
and that does not mean sunglasses for crying out loud
..........can't/won't shut up......go figure......

.......believe it or not...........listed in the course descriptions for hot shop extension classes at a post secondary institution in this city..........

[QUOTE] "eye protection(clear safety glasses or lightly shaded sunglasses)[QUOTE]

I mean sure, you can't sneak in through the vents and turn the glory holes on like you could 20 years ago but come on...........

[Dave Bross]

Terry,

The handwriting is on the wall that you're probably about to be put through some changes. This is usually a good thing. Think back on something in your life that seemed horrible at the time, and see if there wasn't a major lesson or gain that is only obvious in hindsight. Your school gig is probably nearing its' end, which, of course, is going to make you angry because you definitely weren't ever appreciated at all for everything you did for them.

These changes are painful to go through, but in the end, your mind and body don't need all the stress it's going through right now. That stress is the single biggest destroyer of mental and physical health, and you'll be tons happier and healthier if you're done with it.

Maybe start thinking about where you're going next in life. You have terriffic skills, and you're an excellent teacher, so you deserve an environment where you can flourish and be happy. I'll never forget your ergonomics presentation at Seattle so I know your capabilities are outstanding.

The first time I was run out of a very profitable little business by politics and jealousy I was angry for years. In hindsight, it was a waste of time and effort to be that angry, and it poisoned a lot of what I did for a while afterwards.

Don't make my mistake, be ready to roll with it and start thinking about and planning what's next.

[Steve Stadelman]

Dave, thanks for the moment of Zen. I am not joking either, those kind of thoughts need to be formost in our mind a lot more than they are.

Terry, do you work out or do yoga regularly? Hitting the gym regularly is really helping me these days.

[Mike Aurelius]

For me, the best thing I've found after a very stressful day, is to turn on some soft music (I regularly listen to XM satellite New Age), fill the tub soak for about 20 minutes, then sit and read a fiction book for at least an hour. Then lights off and bed.

Since I started this routine, my stress level (and my blood pressure) has dropped significantly.

[Hugh Jenkins]

Terry, I too was present for your Seattle session. You obviously care about the impact of life on people, body and soul. As teachers or program directors we measure a lot of our efforts by the results in the program and students, and push ourselves hard to get those results. When that effort gets to be too much, seems wasted, or resisted (or even undermined), what we still have is fatigue and disappointment. And I think we sometimes outgrow what a given situation allows, (or age beyond the demands of what we have created). It really might be time to turn your attention to your own well being and try something new. I know from doing that, that it doesn't necessarily make things easier, or pay back any better, but it does give a new sense of purpose and control of your own direction. And then the fatigue seems worth it again. Best to you!!

[Mike Aurelius]

Originally posted by Allan Gott
..........can't/won't shut up......go figure......

.......believe it or not...........listed in the course descriptions for hot shop extension classes at a post secondary institution in this city..........

[QUOTE] "eye protection(clear safety glasses or lightly shaded sunglasses)[QUOTE]

I mean sure, you can't sneak in through the vents and turn the glory holes on like you could 20 years ago but come on...........

What can I say Allan?

"I give them the books, I send them to school, and they still don't learn." -- my father <snicker>

Ignorance is bliss -- unknown

[Pete VanderLaan]

Terry I agree with Dave and Hugh. I just spent the worst 18 months of my life losing a quarter million dollars in a rather humiliating way. . It is just about over with and I am turning to rediscovering what attracted me to glass forty years ago while I get to live on this amazing tree farm that has been in the family for many generations. Doors open and doors close. Walk thru the doors. ( avoid the long black nothing part... it gets the guy in the Fez all worked up).

You are a good teacher and I was pleased to have you at Seattle for my one time shot at bringing quality people to a GAS conference who really knew their stuff.. There were quite a number of you that I genuinely admired which also includes Hugh and Steve among others with great passion.
For sure it looks like something new is going to happen. You genuinely don't sound happy with the status quo and I don't blame you. Administrators can be profoundly stupid. This junk has a way of changing things for the better.

And one more thing: When I worked with Mac Davis, the State OSHA inspector who was methodically going thru all King County glass studios in Washington State, I spent seven hours with him going over Studio Hazards and what was and what wasn't important. He attended the workshop we held on ventilation and absolutely had his socks knocked off as he listened to a group of people talk to an overflow crowd very specifically and accurately about ventilation. Afterwards he told me how impressed he was with the presentations being made.

[Terry Craig]

thank you guys for your words of wisdom, I know that this is going to be a tough time but it can only get better from here. glad to hear that my gas was not forgoten...hee heee.

[Donald Feser]

and trust that some of your students will "get it" once out of school, and remember all of your safety rules- I learned in an environment that was not all that safety conscious, but in my shop you wear proper glasses or you don't play.- it will sink in, and they will recall where they heard it. good luck.

[Brent Hickenbotham]

point well taken guys.

I just think that there is way to much emphasis on who says what and ego tromping with ways to blow glass, where someone learned and the stigma with pilchuck. I understand the vent, but if you do your own thing and do it well, who cares?

[Hugh Jenkins]

And what is it you are hoping Ed will say for you, Brent?

[Pete VanderLaan]

Ed took a walk after he took a bit of a hit for absolutely bashing a new member. He is absolutely free to post but apparantly chooses not to.

[Randy Heise]

I wonder if it was the post when he cracked on Lia for "'building a studio and then learning how to blow glass". That post really pissed me off and drove me away from this website for the last 5 months. For some of us, that's the only way we will ever learn. It doesn't matter how you learn ... what matters is that you want to learn. My studio will be finished this summer. Then I can take all the techniques I've been taught and learn to blow glass.

I'm back ... missed all of you.

Randy in Oregon

[Dave Bross]

Ed is an interesting paradox. For me, he brings back fond memories of the old Germans who taught me to be a mechanic. High standards, brilliant, rough on you, but you might just learn way more than you realize, not all of it mechanical, or, on this case, glass.

I say fond memories because those old Germans saved me from going down the drain as a young and dumb human. I hated it and it pissed me off at the time,but the benefits were only visible in hindsight.

I've found that if I'm angry, it's a pretty good clue that there's something more going on there there that needs further investigation. I'm also usually angry about something I'm quite guilty of myself. Never a dull moment in the human condition. You really have to laugh at yourself.

[Terry Craig]

I feel that it is needed, I was feeling rather ignored and unheard by my employers, to be fair this was not all their fault. I had, sadly, gotten tired of pointing out issues and not seeing results forthwith and, unfortunatly after other issues that had happened related to my employment and the programe, I became rather disponded and stopped pointing out problems (well to be honest I just stopped comunicating, Its a bad habbit Iam trying/will change.) instead I brewed over how in the past I seemed not to be heard and how it had not changed. This, for obvious reasons was not fair.
Yes there are personal issues at play here, I am a stubrun and some times thick headed person who does not always take the right steps when it comes to protacall, we all make judgment errors.
I should have stuck to the issues in my original post, I should not have sujested that the schools admin. was lacking in their concern for the student's or staff's safety. They do care, they are supportive of the staff, It was I who errored, I pigheadedly chose to stop telling them of problems when I felt that I was not being listened to anymore and chose (poorly) to vent about these frustrations here on this board instead of taking them to the next level of admin. and trying to have the problems solved.
To the office staff, I Terry Craig, am sorry for implying that you are lacking in any way of your concern for the student or staff's safety.
I do know that you care.
The programe that WE have developed here is great, and has the possabilety to become one of the truly great glass programs, and this will only happen if we all value each others skills and abileties, and comunicate.
again, I apologize, I will take every step to ensure that this sort of thing does not happen again.
Terry Craig

[Greg Vriethoff]

...I pigheadedly chose to stop telling them of problems when I felt that I was not being listened to anymore and chose (poorly) to vent about these frustrations here on this board instead of taking them to the next level of admin. and trying to have the problems solved.


Well, you're not alone here. This is something that I struggle with in virtually all areas of my life. My marriage, work, family relations, etc.. It is all too easy sometimes to assume that you know what people are thinking and then taking that and running with it. Instead of facing issues head-on and opening a dialog you become passive-aggressive and pretty soon everyone just thinks you're an asshole. People can't read your mind. Sometimes you get shot down when you make a suggestion, or try to speak your mind. But in the end you tried and everyone knows where they stand (hopefully).

Good luck, and don't give up!

Greg

[Franklin Sankar]

Terry when you taught me I did not see anything but kindness and letting me try it before suggesting what was wrong. Yes you fixed it even when it fell on the ground. I dont think I wore you out with my 101 questions. You did it your way and Clark did it his way and you accepted it then . So what went wrong now? Dont answer you already did. So get back to the good old Terry.
Ah that is it , the problem is getting old.:evil:

Franklin

[Pete VanderLaan]

I don't think you should be beating yourself up on this one Terry.

[Dave Bross]

I agree with Pete.

Keep watching, looking, and thinking about what's coming.

[Terry Craig]

Thanks for the support.