Copper vs Black iron pipe for gas

[Fredi Vilina]

Am I better off running 3/4"copper pipe with sweeping radius curves or larger black iron pipe with 90D. elbows for my gas supply line? I have to go approximately 30 feet from where my gas line comes into the studio and (6) 90d. turns before I hit the mixer. I have about 54"w.c. in the warm months and about 48" w.c. when it is really cold out.

thanks,

fredi

[Brian Gingras]

you're not talking about sweating copper right?


If you're talking about soft copper tubing, there are regulations in place about the maximum distance you can run soft copper/flex line anyway. It's also soft, and easy to damage...not really ideal for any supply runs in a studio due to potential damage. The most durable would be the black pipe. I know it's more of a pain to install, but it's worth it. Plan ahead and put in a T or 2 in the run in case you add additional equipment later.

I'm sure your licensed(such thing where you are?) gas fitter will use the right materials.

[Pete VanderLaan]

Black pipe.

Galvanized is illegal. Copper is expensive and fragile.

[Kraig Richard]

Originally posted by Pete VanderLaan
Black pipe.

Galvanized is illegal. Copper is expensive and fragile.

When at the plumbing supply house....Be sure to ask for malleable black iron fitttings when ever plumbing gas. Apparently there is another more brittle type of cast fittings.

Also (our) Home Depot and Lowes have a (powered) threading machine to do your own pipes right there in the isle!!

Be sure to use the proper goo (threading sealent) they are not all created equal.

For pluming water..., An air compressor is par for the course in energizing the line to look for leaks ...this might be useful before running gas as the pressure can be 100 times greater then the few inches hat will be in there afer.

It dosent hurt to check for leaks every month with a soapy soloution (rinsed off after)

When plumbing air consider PVC and good solvent/glues. There is considerably less moisture associated with plastic then metal.


Pluming air and gas don't forget to put in deadlegs.

If you do use copper for any of your supply be sure to use a quality brand flaring kit. And practice on some scraps first. Flairing can be tricky till youve done a few. Dont ever use sealent with flares.

[Mike Aurelius]

Also be sure to use ball type shut off valves. Be sure they are rated for fuel gas usage. You need one for every "appliance", and it probably wouldn't be a bad idea to have one at the point where you are pulling the gas from (at the start of the leg).

Be sure to use fuel gas rated pipe sealant.

It's usually best to have a certfied & licensed plumber do this kind of installation, you can do it yourself, but why take the risk?

[Mike Aurelius]

When plumbing air consider PVC and good solvent/glues. There is considerably less moisture associated with plastic then metal.

Huh???

No way, jose, unless you have a dryer in the air line.

We use PVC hose and have as much if not more moisture than a business down the street that has hard-line copper.

[Brian Gingras]

ok, I must be a pain for a minute:
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Homeowner/Homesteader may take out a permit to do plumbing, gas fitting and inside water piping work on 1 and 2 family dwellings. For 2 family dwelling units the homeowner/homesteader may only do the general plumbing work in the side/half that they live in.

Homeowner/Homesteader is not allowed to do his or her own plumbing for the following:

* New Single Family Dwellings
* New Duplex or any other new residential unit.
* Vacant Buildings
* Commercial property he/she owns


--------------------------

A little bit of being upfront now will go a long ways towards not being shut down later :)

Is this a residence?

[Brian Graham]

Have you considered corrugated stainless steel tubing that is called CSST in the plumbing trade?

[Brian Gingras]

better than copper but still easy to pierce. There was a recall for some that stuff a couple years ago because of leakage...you really cannot beat the old standby black pipe.

[Pete VanderLaan]

Originally posted by Brian Gingras
ok, I must be a pain for a minute:
---------------------------

*************

Only a minute now mind you... You run the real risk of scaring off all the paying customers.

[Sky Campbell]

Originally posted by Pete VanderLaan
Black pipe.

Galvanized is illegal. Copper is expensive and fragile.


Galvanized is illegal? Are you sure I have all my buried gas line out of Galvanized pipe.


And yes Brian this was done by a licensed gas plumber contracted out to by my local gas co.

Al thou I wouldn't hesitate to do it myself if I knew I could do correctly. This time I blindly excepted the licensed gas tec. This just supports my argument of doing it myself. At least I would have done it right.

[Brian Gingras]

:)...hey I would be lax in my duties if I didn't point this our right?

I cannot get out of work mode when I'm home now after looking at stuff done wrong and dangerous all day long.

[Brian Gingras]

Originally posted by Sky Campbell
Galvanized is illegal? Are you sure I have all my buried gas line out of Galvanized pipe.

.

to quote an online source:

Galvanized pipe is never used for gas lines because the zinc coating flakes off and will clog the filter at the appliance.

[Pete VanderLaan]

Originally posted by Brian Gingras
:)...hey I would be lax in my duties if I didn't point this out right?


*************

It's really OK to be lax (hint hint, wink wink, nod, nod). Steve and I try our best not to cite the Uniform Fire Code. It's always best to not look like a Korean General.

[Brian Gingras]

:)

just don't want to hear about someone blowing themselves up and their insurance not paying b/c they did it themselves and should not have.

[Sky Campbell]

insurance? What the hell is that? If I saved the amount of money I would have to pay for premium insurance I could rebuild my whole shop every couple years! That said we do have a 2 mill liability coverage for the classes we teach but if the place burns down I'll just rebuild it.


I found this:
For propane work most states have adopted NFPA #58 as the ruling code. NFPA 58 allows both black and galvanized pipe for propane gas however both types have to be certified ASTM A53 steel pipe so there wouldn't be any difference in the strength of the pipe. the only difference is in the Galvanized coating.


Seriously. Thanks for the concern

[Brian Gingras]

Originally posted by Sky Campbell
insurance? What the hell is that?

That pesky stuff that mortgage Co's require you to carry when you buy a house :)

[Kraig Richard]

Originally posted by Mike Aurelius
Huh???

No way, jose, unless you have a dryer in the air line.

We use PVC hose and have as much if not more moisture than a business down the street that has hard-line copper.

Examine for differences other than the line material. They might have a few vertically oriented tee's in their lines with a long nipple a cap and a valve on the leg going down.

At the restoration shop where I work, my office is a sandblasting cabnet. They had one plastic run .... over to weld which was always much dryer than all the other lines, particularly the blaster which had to be drained a lot.

During Christmas vacation I swapped out all the metal,..... it and in the other legs and I swear...there is a lot less water in my office, at the reamer, at the powder room, and less to the work benches. Night and day difference.

Extoling the virtues of a poor mans air dryer...Extra dead legs never hurt anyone. One just out of the tank, and before each device, and a few more just for the sake of redundancy.

[Mike Aurelius]

I have dead legs about every 15 feet, and moisture filters on every machine feed, same set up as my neighbor.

We even have the same identical compressor.

[Mike Aurelius]

Originally posted by Brian Gingras
:)...hey I would be lax in my duties if I didn't point this our right?

I cannot get out of work mode when I'm home now after looking at stuff done wrong and dangerous all day long.

Hey Brian??

Is what you are quoting Mass. Building Code or National Building Code? Fredi is (or at least was) here in Minnesota.

Here in Minn, soft wall copper, galvanized, stainless and good old black pipe are legal.

[Brian Gingras]

that was Minnesota I quoted

[Mark Wilson]

i paid a local mechanical contractor here in minnesota, to install my natural gas line. they used soft copper, not black iron. but it was a thicker wall soft copper that could handle being flaired for a flair connector. it passed inspection without a problem.

[Brian Gingras]

I don't doubt that it passes...I do think for long term durability iron will be much better...it may also be the way I work, and have things bouncing off the walls though. I have totes come back in from shows, steel leaning on walls, etc. All of that would easily have dinged, or cut into a copper line.

[Mike Aurelius]

Soft copper is being used more and more. Not too long ago I was at an open house in a new subdivision of houses.

One of the houses was one of these huge "executive" McMansions...I almost always head down to the basement to check out the mechanical room and in this house, 1/2" black pipe came in from outside and was piped into a large diameter (I'm guessing at about 1" to 1.5") manifold, from which all the gas burning appliances were fed -- and all of them with 1/2" OD soft wall copper except the furnace and hot water heaters, which were right next to the manifold, and plumbed in 1/2" black pipe.

Because the soft wall copper is bendable (with bending springs), and is buried in the wall or floor/ceiling, that's what makes it safe for appliance useage.

If the appliance is open to access, like the furnace and hot water heaters, then hard wall pipe should be used, with a flex line if there is any movement of the appliance.

[Brian Gingras]

exactly my point for a studio.

[Pete VanderLaan]

we are having a record snowfall up here in the Mt Washington Valley this year having already passed 140 inches. It is up to the eaves of many buildings and gas leaks are becoming an issue with the expansion and contraction of water jammed into spaces where the pipes are bolted down. The most recent explosion of an apartment house was credited to black pipe and propane on a surface mount over a roof line coming down into the building. Copper would fatigue in this environment as well so I suspect that in case of mechanical abrasion, the best thing to do is to eliminate the abrasion period. Copper will fatigue.

[Dave Bross]

As I remove my tinfoil hat (and it's just for a moment, mind you....we know they're out there....) and don my auto mechanic chapeau...you should see how quickly copper line will fail if used as a fuel line on a vehicle engine. My favorite example was some rather secretive neighbors years back who had their place go up in flames one day when they were gone. Turns out they had a world class pot growing operation in their barn with full automation, lights, the works....and a copper fuel line on one of the generator engines. Oooooops! The devil's in the details.

Not to worry, Sky is just signed on to the new Florida mandatory burn-n-build self insurance program. Mostly you can't even get insurance here, even if you could afford it. If your county touches the ocean anywhere...forget it.
It was kind of fun when the insurance companies took everyones money right up to hurricane season and then cancelled them. Even more fun when the banks started threatening everyone with foreclosure, to the citizens unified refrain of "well come take the damn thing then". Needless to say, the banks backed down. Many of us are now enjoying life without the "benefit" of insurance companies.
Welcome to Florida....the new wild west! More fun than electile dysfunction!
Hey, unexpected side benefits...at least people are leaving here faster than they are coming.

[Jim Brown]

Originally posted by Brian Graham
Have you considered corrugated stainless steel tubing that is called CSST in the plumbing trade?

CSST now requires a dedicated ground, its a recent addition to the WI code, and was mfgr recommeded for a while.
Came about due to perforations from electrical current. Most cited cause was lightning strike.
Once you add the cost of the CSST and grounding, Black Iron is more cost effective to run. If you have the equip, or can get it threaded inexpensively.
I can't say its required from all mfgs, but the CSST system we use requires certification to buy/install or the mfgr will not warranty the product.

Jim

[Hugh Jenkins]

Funny how this goes. Black pipe is not legal for gas in Hawaii. It corrodes too fast I guess. It can be used for oil however.

[Pete VanderLaan]

Correct me if I'm wrong Hugh but you used to have what was known as "Line Gas" and my recollection is that it contained sulphur, which would be corrosive in black pipe. Is that true or is it my memory playing tricks on me? I seem to remember that from the seventies when I was doing workshops in Manoa.

[Charlie Correll]

I put in furnaces in Barbados. Galvy only, no black pipe, because of the humidity. Of course, the inch and a half gas line came across an alley sitting right on the ground.

[Steve Stadelman]

I have two furnaces in Japan and the 7500v feeders for the shop service cross a cement driveway with a steel cover over the lines to protect them from getting driven on. And it's a homade cover, otherwise the lines would just sit there.

[Travis Frink]

Steve,

Where are the furnaces in Japan? Are those the moly melters?

[Mike Firth]

Strongly suggest not using PVC for high pressure air. There are numerous published stories of PVC in woodworking shops where it fails and fires a lance across the shop into a wall on the other side - see Fine Woodworking over the years. The pressure and temperature changes in an air compresser line are much greater than in a water line.

[Steve Stadelman]

Originally posted by Travis Frink
Steve,

Where are the furnaces in Japan? Are those the moly melters?

Yes, a 100lb and a 600lb. Sasayama city.

[Sky Campbell]

Originally posted by Mike Firth
Strongly suggest not using PVC for high pressure air. There are numerous published stories of PVC in woodworking shops where it fails and fires a lance across the shop into a wall on the other side - see Fine Woodworking over the years. The pressure and temperature changes in an air compresser line are much greater than in a water line.

I've been wrapping my pvc air lines with pipe insulation and painting the ones outside to stop the uv break down. My Dad is a woodworker and ran air everywhere inside and out. Same goes for the farm I worked on growing up. Pipes can blow but pvc is about the easiest solution I know.

[Rosanna Gusler]

i work in the yacht building industry. here in dare county, there are literally miles of pvc for air. some in heated buildings, some not, some outdoors. these guys have room sized compresors feeding 100 or more guys with grinders. i have seen it blow a few times but all those times , the pipe split and there was no shrapnel. well except for the time a guy hit a main supply line with a shovel looking for a leak under a parking lot. good thing he was wearing safety glasses. he got peppered with gravel and mud. scared the crap out of both of us. rosanna