Talk Me Out of It

[Ben David]

Or into it, if you think so...

Don't get me wrong - I am just as concerned about the environment as anyone else. But as I explore the books and archives and plan my weekend warrior setup - it is increasingly clear to me that going electric simplifies many things.

However my partner in all this is a friend and neighbor who is very, very into recycling. And he's located a nearby processor of used motor oil, and wants to explore the possibility of a waste oil burner.

And a recuperator.

Every fiber of my engineering-trained body is screaming "Keep It Simple, Stupid" - which to me means wire.

- No open flame (we use solar for water heating) left unattended all day.
- No flue, no fumes, no recuperator construction.
- No fuel sourcing, and possibly hauling.

I would love to explore the recycling angle - AFTER a first shakedown cruise of furnace construction with local refractory suppliers, welders, and other still unknown variables that Murphy and I both know will surface.

So - are my instincts correct? Or is the fuel train not a biggie?

[Brian Gingras]

build electric, then experiment with the next furnace while you have one to use.

[Pete VanderLaan]

Brian is I believe correct.

That being said, the risks of using used motor oil are problematic. You don't know what potential pollutants are in any given oil change you might buy. Also, filtering and firing with oil has potential fire risks you may not yet appreciate ( I was a fire chief after all, Brian is a building inspector). The primary risks with oil are in the start up and shut down periods as far as fire goes and as a weekender you will be doing that frequently. Electric is straight ahead. Turn it on, ,make stuff. Turn it off. As a beginner, focus on the fact that you want to blow glass, not screw with testy equipment.

[Mike Aurelius]

(not to mention all the carbon you will be adding to the atmosphere -- you should probably invest in carbon credits...)

[Garner Britt]

I'd say waste oil is certainly not the best "first" furnace. I've seen it work but it is no where near simple.

Ben, what do you pay for electricity in Israel? Where does it come from? I'm guessing nuke but I have no idea?

I'd build the best wire melter I could to start with. Even the simple solution is going to give you some head aches (it did for me at least)

garner

[Peter Bowles]

Hi Ben

I think the most important thing you need to think about is what you want to use this furnace for. The type of furnace you decide to build should depend more on frequency of use, capacity, choice of material you are melting and the quality of glass you need from it.

How you fuel this thing becomes a factor of these, its better to build your equipment around your practice, than build your practice around your equipment.

If you intend to blow glass and are planning on using a glory hole you will need to set yourself up with gas regardless, and your glory hole will probably use more energy than your furnace- again depending on how you use your equipment.

But I think in essence you are absolutely right in keeping it simple. If you give us a better idea of what you want to do, we can all give you more conflicting and confusing ideas of how to do it.

Peter

[Ben David]

Ben, what do you pay for electricity in Israel? Where does it come from? I'm guessing nuke but I have no idea?

We have no nuclear capabilities at all, what are you talking about? ;)

No - no civilian nuclear power plants. Our government is just now waking up to the need for desalination plants...

Our energy costs are higher than the US, as in Europe. Household electrical rates combine a fixed per-house monthly fee of around $US 3.00 with a charge for usage at around 12 cents/kwh.

But we are not earning in dollars, we are earning in shekels (4-6 shekels to the dollar over the past few years) so it's pretty steep - in local currency the rate is half a shekel per kwh. Anyone in North America paying half a buck per kwh of electricity?

I am trying to get a handle on relative consumption of electricity vs. natural gas so I can see what type of furnace is less expensive in this market.

[Ben David]

its better to build your equipment around your practice, than build your practice around your equipment.

Very true.

I am learning offhand glassblowing, and my friend has done fusing and lampwork. We'd each like to learn from the other.

So I am looking at a small (75-lb max) furnace, small (12-inch) glory, marver/torch station, and an annealer that can be used for warm glass work.

I'm also interested in somehow combining the furnace and glory into one small unit, as is done by Arab glassblowers. Examination of the older ways often yields clues to energy efficiency.

[Eben Horton]

I wouldnt build anything. Rent time from some one else.

[Ben David]

I wouldnt build anything. Rent time from some one else.

Hot glass is in its infancy here. There is only one hot shop in Tel Aviv, the place I've been studying at this year. Their rate is 100 shekels for an hour of studio time.

From what I have read in the archives, I still think that it pays to build if it will give me 2 more 4-hour sessions each weekend I fire up.

Could any wire melters out there give me an estimate of their electrical consumption in kilowatt-hours?

The courses this year covered a lot of techniques, but didn't give enough time to get good at anything but a few basic skills. I need to put in the blowing hours if I am to progress.

I was considering starting with the annealer/fusing oven and building a proper workstation for my friend's torch. Then I could tackle the wire melter and glory. I am also looking very hard at Mark Wilson's micro-mini "crucible in a glory" setup.

[Franklin Sankar]

Ben, if what is happening to you is what happened to me you will never be satisfied until you build your own furnace. The furnace is not that bad wait till you start eating gas in the glory hole. That is when you wish oil was easy. Did you analyse your fuel energy cost vs the electricity energy cost .
It is a fallacy to think that since you buy fuel and make electricity out of it the electricity should be more expensive. Dont know why but that happens.
Still lots I dont know, but I am glad to have someone else on board who can empathise with the pain of not having real glassblowers around.
Franklin

[Mark Wilson]

Could any wire melters out there give me an estimate of their electrical consumption in kilowatt-hours?

I am also looking very hard at Mark Wilson's micro-mini "crucible in a glory" setup.

my wire melter can hold a 40 pound crucible. it uses 3.8KW of power, and yields pretty good glass after 24 hours of melting (from room temperature), so it takes about 70 KW-hrs of energy to melt good glass from room temperature.(the power cycles on/off during part of the melt). at our electricity costs, 70 KW-hrs of energy costs me about $6.50.

my outdoor melter can hold about a 10 to 15 pound crucible. i use it for practice in the summer as i never let the glass fine out. i light it and i am blowing glass about 1.5 hours later. i typically melt dense color glass to help hide the bubbles (cobalt blue or ruby red). i use propane in 20 pound tanks to power it. i light it up, melt for an hour and a half, blow for 2 hours and shut it down. using it like this, i can get 3 to 4 blowing sessions out of a 20 pound tank. so that is a total of 15 to 20 hours of burning time. at our propane prices, that turns out to be a dollar an hour.

[Fredi Vilina]

Ben,
Do you happen to know who runs the studio there? A few years ago a very nice lady was in Minnesota learning to blow while I believe her husband taught at the U of M. Forgive my attempt at spelling her name:Shlomit? Anyways she said she was going to go back and set up a studio and we lost touch and I am curious if it is her? As for my two cents on the furnace. I am just finishing my 100lb moly and for what I have in in time and money I would have bought Steve's new 75lb if he had been making them at the time I actually started working on mine. I have friends that have 40, 75 and 150 free standing wire melters and they didn't cost a lot to buy or make and they have been for all of them relatively maintenance free except for the occasional pot or elements, but they melt cullet not batch. I wanted the ability to melt either one and wanted to hopefully be REALLY maintenance free. I like making my own stuff but I also don't want to keep repairing it. Do you have any trouble getting replacement parts: elements, thermocouples, etc?

[Glenn Randle]

If your friend wants to try burning oil you can try it with the glory hole. If it doesn't work out, "no big deal" just switch to a gas burner. It would only take a few minutes if you designed for it when setting up the burner port & mounting supports.

You can also test an oil burner in a make shift "disposable" furnace made of concrete blocks set up outdoors. It will last long enough to see if your burner works, but after a while the blocks will begin to burn up. Do it at your friend's place. ;)

Considering you are in a warm climate I would think you probably would have an easy time finding a dependable source of oil, since folks wouldn't need to heat their shops & garages with it.

Maybe you will be the one to set up competition for the rental studio? :)

[David Patchen]

100 shekels an hour is the cost to rent? That's about $20 USD, right? That's a steal. I'd rent all I could for that much.

[Ben David]

Thanks to all for their replies.
Mark wrote:
my wire melter can hold a 40 pound crucible. it uses 3.8KW of power, and yields pretty good glass after 24 hours of melting (from room temperature), so it takes about 70 KW-hrs of energy to melt good glass from room temperature.(the power cycles on/off during part of the melt). at our electricity costs, 70 KW-hrs of energy costs me about $6.50.
So with a similar wire melter I would have a cost of around 30-40 shekels for each weekend session - two 4-hour sessions. I still need to get more prices for natural gas/propane, but running a gas glory certainly won't get me up to the cost of renting time in Tel Aviv - 800 shekels for those 8 hours of blowing time.

David wrote:
100 shekels an hour is the cost to rent? That's about $20 USD, right? That's a steal. I'd rent all I could for that much.
I would too - if I could earn my salary in US dollars, then come here for my glassblowing! But for me 100 shekels is like 100 dollars in terms of purchasing power and percent of income.

Fredi wrote:
Ben,
Do you happen to know who runs the studio there? A few years ago a very nice lady was in Minnesota learning to blow while I believe her husband taught at the U of M. Forgive my attempt at spelling her name:Shlomit? Anyways she said she was going to go back and set up a studio and we lost touch and I am curious if it is her?
. . .
Do you have any trouble getting replacement parts: elements, thermocouples, etc?
I think you mean Shlomit Eisenstein - she runs a studio up in the north near Haifa. Too far for me to travel, and from what I hear she is less into teaching and more into doing her own work.

http://shlomitglassblowing.com/

Regarding materials - I don't think I will have great difficulty putting together a wire melter, annealer, and glory. It's more a question of finding out who are the more reliable people to work with - suppliers, welding/metal shop, etc. And everything being relatively more expensive than in the States.

We have a local manufacturer of castable refractory and several importers of frax. We also have vermiculite and perlite widely available due to our agriculture sector.

There are a few companies selling industrial-process kiln components, and a few studio-ceramics supply houses. And all the electronic/control components I want - although more European and Asian brands than American.

Most imported things are relatively more expensive due to shipping and the exchange rate. Sometimes it pays to do "personal import" and buy it yourself from overseas, rather than paying the local markup. But sometimes you need the local technical support.

Glenn - I will file away your suggestions for when I experiment with oil. Meanwhile I have signed on at Hugh Jenkin's Bioglass.org and am reading all I can.

Franklin wrote:
I am glad to have someone else on board who can empathise with the pain of not having real glassblowers around.
Franklin
I go to my class - in which 1/3 of the students are "craft tourists" content to let the instructor do most of the work - and then go into the list archives and read about your efforts to blow glass. In my eyes you are very much a "real glassblower". Your perseverance is an inspiration.

[Glenn Randle]

First I've heard about Bioglass.org ,thanks for the link.

I didn't see any info about burning oil there. Maybe I missed it?
There's a bit of info & links to Landfill Methane use which "seems" feasible if you've got an old dump site handy, and the local officials can pull it together. There was an effort here to try it, but the funding didn't come through. It seemed to be a bit complicated, by the need to involve too many parties, who all meant well and had experience in their respective fields, but there where just too many hurdles to jump. The hopes were too big, and there wasn't enough incentive for any one group to get involved.......so sadly the methane will go to waste. Too bad it's not as simple as selling the gas rights to a glassblower to use (for cheap) until it's gone, and just let him "do it". I attended an official group meeting and one of the experts, who'd helped at the "Energy Exchange" said it was difficult to burn the landfill gas, but I've been using waste oil for over 6 years and have a hard time believing it would be difficult in comparison. But it's a public project with a lot of parties to please, and their hopes were to offer workshops & demos continuously which requires a lot of investment in infrastructure and personnel. Sounds great, but gets complicated. Hopefully in larger areas where there are more resources to tap into there will be more success in utilizing old land fields. I can see setting these up could be a rewarding career for the right person....Hmmm?

[Eben Horton]

What are your goals and ambitions? Do you aspire to become skilled enough to support your lifestyle making glass or do you just want something to noodle around with every weekend?

If you want to do this for a living eventually and you are young, building a furnace now would be disastrous.

if you just want a hobby, then build a wire melter and have fun.


I say disastrous because the best education in glass making is to work for someone or go to legitimate school with a glass program, which I doubt Israel has, but if your young and are considering this as a career, travel, work at as many studios as possible, soak in everything you see and do, and then develop your own style.. What I did was just that and I would work for studios for partial pay and studio time. I would use the studio time to make work that was marketable, and developed a demand for my glass before i built my studio, so that I knew I would be able to afford to pay for it all once it was up and running. Had I built a furnace when I was just starting out, I would never have learned 3/4% of what I know now, and I may not have been able to keep it floating and would have gone under. But then agian, I never would have considered building such a small furnace.... so maybe I am off base with my suggestions.

Just consider your goals and aspirations, and dont put the wagon before the horse.

[Ben David]

What are your goals and ambitions? Do you aspire to become skilled enough to support your lifestyle making glass or do you just want something to noodle around with every weekend?

If you want to do this for a living eventually and you are young, building a furnace now would be disastrous.

if you just want a hobby, then build a wire melter and have fun.


I guess I read younger than I look... :D

I am in my 40s, will probably have an empty nest in less than a decade. I am looking to slowly transition from a career spent at various artsy-yet-corporate points (architecture, product-n-packaging design, marketing communications) into a artist/craftsman type gig. Possibly never fully leaving my day job.

Does that make me a gussied-up hobbyist? I prefer to think of myself as a realist taking advantage of the modern multi-track approach to career planning :)

I've done my share of youthful traveling and learning-while-doing. I've acquired core art and design skills and honed a personal aesthetic while serving my corporate overlords. Most glass studios would probably rather barter my marketing/design skills for blow time than do the starving-student-apprentice thing.

Right now I need to learn the technical skills of glassworking - and get a feel for the material's unique qualities. That means working the bench, working the glass.

In this first year of hot glass I was introduced to many techniques - without mastering any. I understand this was done to keep less committed students interested and impressed, but... I waited a long while to do this, I am committed (I think the word is smitten!) and now I just need to put in the time. I saw clearly that I only progressed at things I kept doing repeatedly.

I need to find the cheapest way to spend time working the glass. If it doesn't conflict with my day job, doesn't disrupt my life by requiring travel, and allows me to experiment with fusing and other techniques at no additional cost - that's even better.

It looks like that means building a small home setup - while continuing to learn at the Tel Aviv studio under more experienced eyes and hands.

[Eben Horton]

wire melter then.. 20 lb crucible.

I thought you were younger.

[Larry Cazes]

Ben, I have been following this thread for a while now and it looks like our goals and experiences are very similiar. After doing this as a "serious" hobby business for two years I would suggest that you rent shop time and don't make a big investment in equipment right now. Keeping even a small shop running will involve quite a bit of time and expense. I rent all of my time from a few local shops and it has been working well for me.

[Jim Vormelker]

Could any wire melters out there give me an estimate of their electrical consumption in kilowatt-hours?

My Lauckner-Like 75 pounder is rated at 32 amps, at $0.15/kWh it is about $12/day to operate.

Jim V

[Mark Wilson]

will probably have an empty nest in less than a decade.

good luck with that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Garner Britt]

wire melter then.. 20 lb crucible.

I thought about building a 30lb wire melter but got talked into a 75lb...best advice I've gotten online (craftweb). If only there was a 50lb EC.....

I've found that I end up working for 1-2-3 weeks at a time rather than weekends only or full time. I've been hot for three weeks and will shut down next week and be cold for a month or so.

I estimate $9 per day at $.10 /KWH for my 75 lb melter. It's hard to figure exactly what's the furnace and what is kilns/annealers/etc. It's the glory hole that really runs the $how at $4-$5 per hour in propain.

garner

[Ben David]

I thought you were younger.

So did I :)

I'm basically creating a day-job-friendly version of what I'd get if I went back to art school - weekly hands-on with an instructor, and then open studio time to practice.

[Brian Blanthorn]

Or into it, if you think so...

Don't get me wrong - I am just as concerned about the environment as anyone else. But as I explore the books and archives and plan my weekend warrior setup - it is increasingly clear to me that going electric simplifies many things.

However my partner in all this is a friend and neighbor who is very, very into recycling. And he's located a nearby processor of used motor oil, and wants to explore the possibility of a waste oil burner.

And a recuperator.

Every fiber of my engineering-trained body is screaming "Keep It Simple, Stupid" - which to me means wire.

- No open flame (we use solar for water heating) left unattended all day.
- No flue, no fumes, no recuperator construction.
- No fuel sourcing, and possibly hauling.

I would love to explore the recycling angle - AFTER a first shakedown cruise of furnace construction with local refractory suppliers, welders, and other still unknown variables that Murphy and I both know will surface.

So - are my instincts correct? Or is the fuel train not a biggie?

I think the future 4 fuels R gona B very difficult

I reccon any burnable fuel will go up in price n reclaims also in fact reclaimed / bio / wood etc may not B available 2 the "normal" person as it gets used n recycled by the big comglomerates

Also unless subsidised electric will probably increace in relation 2 other fuels

I think this global fuel rises ( + food etc ) is just the start of the increaces

Here our long term planning is use as little fuel as possible and grow what we can

[Pete VanderLaan]

I would seriously anticipate gasoline to hit about seven bucks a gallon and then to stabilize. What that will do to fuel related products will be unnerving and I expect that people with what were called middle incomes will be squeezed to the point where food and gas will be priorities over items that used to fit into disposable income patterns- like handmade glass.

I see it as being key to no longer be tied to the furnace full time and to make parts that are then rendered additionally with coldworking so that the furnace maybe runs ten days a month. Then I see it as necessary to produce things that live in several worlds- like lighting fixtures. They can be beautiful and functional at the same time.

As to rental time at 20 bucks an hour. It may seem cheap but it presumes the quality to be excellent and the annealing capacity to be ample. I would suspect that isn't the case, making it not such a great deal, BUT if it was good stuff, renting would certainly appeal to me.

I am currently out at Steve's place in Portland and we have all been talking about the advantages of running my new furnace that Steve is building for me that holds three pots. Two will be color and one will be clear. The advantage to having color pots is two fold, firstly I don't have to have anyone heat up the color for me and secondly, I don't have a 10K color bill to pay. I genuinely believe that making your own color gives you a unique look in your work and is cost effective.

Steve has also built a 75 lb melter that is cute as a button. It is really going to fill a hole in the market for inexpensive melters that make Denver Glass look silly. I am really impressed with the new fabrication shop here.

[Ben David]

I would seriously anticipate gasoline to hit about seven bucks a gallon and then to stabilize. What that will do to fuel related products will be unnerving and I expect that people with what were called middle incomes will be squeezed to the point where food and gas will be priorities over items that used to fit into disposable income patterns- like handmade glass.

There is certainly room for short-term concern, but... the enormous post-war rally of the decorative arts - including glass and ceramics - was hardly affected by the oil crisis of the 1970s, and went through the roof in the go-go, more-is-more 80s.

By which time advances in computer, transport, and other technologies had largely compensated for the rise in fuel costs. In the 1980s fuel prices had again become so irrelevant to international trade and transport that globalization went into high gear.

[Eben Horton]

There is certainly room for short-term concern, but... the enormous post-war rally of the decorative arts - including glass and ceramics - was hardly affected by the oil crisis of the 1970s, and went through the roof in the go-go, more-is-more 80s.

guess what. All that glass and ceramics that was made in the 70's and 80's.... its still out there and taking up a collector's shelf space. The market is flooded.

[Ben David]

guess what. All that glass and ceramics that was made in the 70's and 80's.... its still out there and taking up a collector's shelf space. The market is flooded.

I was 10 years old in 1972. I was buying bubblegum, not Chihuly.

In 1972 the museums were already full of art-nouveau Tiffany, art-deco Lalique, and post-war Italian glass. Somehow they've found room for Lino and Dante and Morris.

As those museums - and our universities - cultivate "beginner" philanthropists, my contemporaries are starting to appear at various fundraising dinners.

My contemporaries are also buying McMansions in neighborhoods that didn't exist - or were not yet gentrified - a few years ago. And stocking them with art objects and lighting fixtures.

Coming up behind us is a generation of 20-30 year olds who are even more design-savvy. Raised on the Phillipe Starck lemon squeezer and the Zaha Hadid toilet brush, they effortlessly combine mass-market and highly individual, artisanal items to create a personal style.

You are invited to try your hand at creating some of those light fixtures and artisanal objects, and architectural features for the museum wings and university dorms my generation will endow...

Maybe the market for 70-year-old boomer collectors is flooded. But new markets are constantly being created.

Can we stop applying Peak Oil theory to the art market?

[Eben Horton]

I have found that younger Americans with newly aquired wealth are more apt to spend it on whats trendy- electronics, cars... not many are buying art. thats just me though...who knows

[Ben David]

I have found that younger Americans with newly aquired wealth are more apt to spend it on whats trendy- electronics, cars... not many are buying art. thats just me though...who knows

Both electronics and cars are largely guy purchases.

From what I've read in the archives - and seen in galleries - functional glass forms are female purchases.

Take a look at the tableware and lighting sections of the design blogs I've linked to. These are just the few that I have come across. Young women - single or married - are making these purchases. Notice how many small artisans (especially ceramicists) are catering to this market.

If there is an economic downturn - urban yuppies will entertain more at home rather than going to expensive restaurants. They will spend on tableware that is unique.

http://www.cribcandy.com/tableware

http://www.designspongeonline.com/category/categories

http://blog.sub-studio.com/labels/kitchen.html

[Pete VanderLaan]

women have almost always been the ones to buy glass of any kind. Their husbands come along as the deal killers.

[Lawrence Ruskin]

Absolutely right.

Middle aged women.

They buy most of my expensive stuff.

Always have....

[Pete VanderLaan]

but I did not see younger women buying glass at our gallery at all except for jewelry and we were not a small concern. Simply put, young people don't buy glass, they buy strange forms of bling. Our clients were over 50 years old period.

[Ben David]

but I did not see younger women buying glass at our gallery at all except for jewelry and we were not a small concern. Simply put, young people don't buy glass, they buy strange forms of bling. Our clients were over 50 years old period.

My 20-something niece - out of college and setting up house - would not be caught dead in a store her mother patronized, especially if she were shopping for something unique and personally expressive.

(and I join the older list members in that "ouch!" - but it's the truth.)

My sister and her daughters have completely different mental maps for shopping - entirely different ideas of which stores and neighborhoods are chic and edgy.

And lots of people are making money off my nieces.

It may take some effort for an older artisan to listen and respond to these younger customers, and to place work with galleries that cater to them.

But the market is definitely there.

[Scott Novota]

Being that I am in my ahem....lower 30's I would like to point of couple of things out.

#.1 Between 20 and 30 all my friends never even would consider glass. Simply put other things are more important. Travel, Flat Screens, Cars....glass?

#2. In the last 3 years 32 to 35 I have watched my friends kind of change thier collective minds. They are investing in "home" and not in self if that is even the best way to put it. Yards, pools, porches, kid her or there...own not rent. You get the picture.

#3. Income levels.

It is just part of growing up. Everyone wants that something different now instead of what everyone else has.


Scott.
.

[Franklin Sankar]

So they will get old soon and then what Scott. Sorry for the rhyme.
It would be interesting to compare the buying patterns as one ages.
Franklin