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Michael Mortara
06-20-2008, 09:40 PM
Well here is the three month review of our recuperater retrofit.

We have been running a SiC furnace with a 200# free standing pot for almost 8 years, until February when we changed over to gas fired with a Jenkins Re-Hugh-perator. Our shop built furnace was a great unit that gave us not one bit of trouble in the last six years. The trouble began when our electricity hit 40 cents/kw here on the Big Island. Our bill jumped from $1800 a month to $2900 in a matter of a few years, with no end in sight. Our furnace used 5000kw/month. Ouch.

With the economy headded into the toilet we really had to stretch to cut costs in the studio, and though messing with the furnace was the last thing I wanted to do, we were running out of options. Some of the things that worried me about switching over to gas were glass quality, maitenence, dependability, noise and rate of return. Still, Hugh lives just an hour and a half from me, and his son Evan has worked in our studio for the last five years so I had no worries that any problems that came up would be adressed.
So we went off to the show in Philly, came back with a bunch of orders, and turned off the furnace (had a two year old EC pot that needed changing any way) and went to work.
That entailed cutting a 8" x 14" hole in the refractory wall (not fun)
and setting up for the burner block and heat exchanger (welding supports)
adding an air compressor and spare air storage tanks. Plumbing new air and gas lines. All told including everything it cost us about $4500 and took about a week of hard work.
Hugh came by with the parts, went back home to start over, came back again a few days later, we set it up and turned it on. It crawled up to temp slowly, I started stressing, frantic call brings Hugh back, he twiddles something, the furnace roars to life, we sit back and let it do its thing as it gets up to temp.
It gets up and I start dialing back the gas. Down it goes, and goes, and goes. Next day with a rough idea of settings (gas, air, damper) we start filling the furnace for the first charge.
Three months later this is what I know.
1. I am saving $1000.00 a month on my fuel bill.
2. The quality of the glass (system 96) is far better than it ever was with the old furnace,though it is a bit stiffer.
3. This system in more hands on, but not excessively so.
My current idle setting for the gas is 6 4/10" of water through a #44 jet.
The most suprising result was the change in the glass quality, we were having cords and seeds with the old furnace that never completely went away, now we have really clean glass, which I atribute to better convection. Bottom line is that it works and works in a production studio setting where glass quality is really important.

Pete VanderLaan
06-21-2008, 12:42 AM
That sounds great Mike. Did you consider that maybe the cords disappearing might have something to do with replacing the pot?

Robert Coleman
06-21-2008, 06:58 AM
Michael,

Happy to hear of the savings. I am interested in doing the same sort of thing with Hugh. Is the price of gas comparable to the price of electricity where you are in HI? Also, can you give me an idea of the monthly cu.ft. usage you are having with the system? Thanks, Bob

Michael Mortara
06-21-2008, 02:46 PM
Pete
At Philly I talked to a couple of glass people melting electricaly using Spectrum who had the same problem with cording. We had been having that problem for some time, usually the first two days of the melt were fine, then, cords.

Robert
The price of propane for us is right around $3.75/gal. The furnace adds about 260-280 gals/ month on average. We blow 5days and melt once a week.
Electricity is up to about 45 cents/kw. There is a raito hugh and I have been talking about in which it make sense to switch from one fule to the other.
Regardless, if you are on propnae with out recuperation there is money to be saved.

Eben Horton
06-21-2008, 04:35 PM
Micheal, how many gallons per month are you using with a glory hole and pipe warmer?

Michael Mortara
06-21-2008, 05:49 PM
Same as the furnace, about 260 gallons, running either our 18" or our 22" hole five days a week.

Kenny Pieper
06-23-2008, 08:50 AM
Poblo Soto has a recuperator installed by Hugh and a friend of Pablo's built the same furnace at the same time with a Gibby venture burner. Pablo told me that though his furnace is a bit slower in charging it will idle with a 64 orifice at 4psi propane. His friends furnace idles with a 56 orifice at 10 psi. I have a furnace like his friends. Its about time to do something about it.
I like the idea of not having to build a whole new furnace and having to increase my electrical capacity which is what I would have to do to go electric.I could retro fit a system like Hughes on to this existing furnace but I would sure miss having a controller. I don't relish the idea of having to do all the settings manually again.

Eben Horton
06-23-2008, 09:21 AM
why cant you use a controller with Hugh's design?

Is it impossible to use forced air from a blower and not use compressed air?

I am about to do a full rebuild on a old Hub furnace and am thinking I will embed a recuperator next to the furnace liner..then either buy a burner from Charlie or build my own...

Michael Mortara
06-23-2008, 03:15 PM
A controller would be a fairly straight forward set up. I'll get around to it one of these days, but to tell you the truth I don't spend much time twiddeling knobs. I don't even turn up the furnace in the morning to blow, though my temp will drop 20 degrees or so during the day when we are blowing big pieces. We do have to turn up for the small work. I start charging on the last blowing day, finish the next morning and by the end of the day the furnace is ready to turn down. Once it's at set point it stays with in 5-10 degrees. The best thing about some automated controls would be being able to leave after the last charge and having the furnace turn its self down after the soak.
Hugh and Eddie at Wet Dog have some thing figured out for forced air, but when the power goes out there is no back up, and with storage and compressed air you have a cushion. Hugh's system pulls air, forced air recuperation pushes air.

Eben Horton
06-23-2008, 04:29 PM
backup generator is a good cushion as well :D

I only ask because i could never have a furnace that is not on a controller... I live miles from my studio. If I had land and could build a studio at home, well.. thats another story. A controller would not be needed.

Kenny Pieper
06-23-2008, 04:38 PM
Michael it is my understanding that the mix changes too much depending on the temp and flow of gasses into the furnace to use a proportionate valve. It is much more temperamental than say a Corell system because it recuperates more heat. As the flue gasses heat up and the air going into the furnace from recuperation heats up the air will expand and there for require more volume and vise versa. I think the only way to do it would be to regulate either the gas or air with a controller and then use a flue gas analyzer to control or regulate the other. I would love to see someone figure out how to put a controller on one of these furnaces!

Eben Horton
06-23-2008, 05:04 PM
2 honeywell motors on butterfly valves. One one controls air input to the BZR..run off the flue gas analyzer's controller ... too rich, valve closes. too lean, it opens. these would not be in series, but side by side, such as a reduction peddle on a gas line.

Who ever does this owes me a 6 pack. :D

Eben Horton
06-23-2008, 05:15 PM
Or to simplify, one valve would be closing as the furnace got hotter, which would tell the BZR to back off on the gas.. That air line would not have to go to the furnace, and could be vented.. a 'dead end' so to speak with a bleed valve to vent off excess pressure. The other controller would be running the main airline to the recuperator.. I dont know of any controllers that simply control gas flow... only air.

I guess the question is this - is there a flue gas analyzer that has proportionating outputs?

thank you google.. http://www.instrumart.com/Product.aspx?ProductID=22593

allright.. now who ever does this owes me a case of beer.

Michael Mortara
06-23-2008, 05:47 PM
Well if you want to absolutely maximize fuel savings......
My current use/savings are based on my current gross set points, and I only have one setting to idle, one to turn up to charging, one to bring it down. I don't fuss with anything in between. Two sets of air/gas regulators and a set point controller would work for me.

Eben Horton
06-23-2008, 05:56 PM
Micheal, as your furnace climbed, the air/gas ratio would change... so when you turn up to high fire, the ratio will be off...
but for turn down, sure.. that would work

Hugh Jenkins
06-23-2008, 09:10 PM
Boyd has gotten me to read this from Seattle. Good to see the report, Mike.

My furnace, too, is very temperature stable. A turn up and down system could be done without big electronic expense, or of course with big electronic expense.
The mixture does change some with temperature change, but that is more of a factor with the heat up of a glory hole from room temp than it is between melt and idle. I just set for the end point air use if I am not going to be there to monitor a melt.

Glory holes are the biggest interest in the north west since electric here is soooo low. There may be a lot to do very soon.

More later when I get home and rested.