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Art Ciccotti
07-10-2009, 08:24 AM
I have been working on the roll up technique using knobs. Like the ends of pieces that have been pulled off to make what I call a monkey bread plate. This process is particularly interesting to me and I would like to develop it. And so I would like to work with other options to enhance my designs. So my question/s is what types of flat glass (companies) work well with Spruce Pine Batch. What are the different factors to consider when combining a flat glass with SP? Also are there certain colors of rod (Kugler,Reichenbach,, Zimmermann) that do not work well with the flat sheets? I know that is a bad question because of many varibles. I am thinking like particular known color combinations of sheet #'s and bar? What companies sell the flat stuff (sources)?
Also, I am going to experiment with a ceramic kiln shelf/kiln & kiln wash. How do I go about keeping the wash particles off the glass? I ve seen different people use a wicker brush, or some sort of brush?
Art Ciccotti

David Patchen
07-10-2009, 12:50 PM
You should search the archives for threads on these different topics--there's a ton of info on kilnwashing shelves, compatability, etc. I think what you'll find will add up to this:

- The only flat glass that you can gather over is System 96 stuff. I've used lots of Uroboros, but I think Spectrum makes it too. I've never had any compatibility issues w/System 96 and Spruce Pine. Its generally pretty soft stuff so you have to be extra careful with it or you'll have sticking problems.
- If you're combining rod with Sys96 flat glass you'll probably do best by using color by the same manufacturer (I'd pickup flat for small stuff like lips) or use rod that's specifically designed for 96 like Gaffer or Pete's Flying Colors. You can find Kugler, and the others that may fit, but you're probably more likely to have problems. No matter what, casing your flat glass w/SP before adding colors from other manufacturers you'll probably reduce your chances of trouble. Sometimes color is fits the clear but it won't fit the other color so a layer between the two helps.
- Wash your plates really evenly w/something like bullseye kiln wash just enough for full coverage, let them fully dry, then *don't overheat your glass* on it. If you're careful you won't have any sticking and after you pick up you can use a small handheld brush or moist cotton rag to quickly wipe off any dust. If it sticks you've either gotten the glass too hot or done a poor job of washing. Take short flashes to warm it up--don't just let it sit in the hole or the edges will flow and stick.

Good luck!

Rick Wilton
07-11-2009, 05:58 PM
compatibility isn't usually an issue as the "puck" you make from the furnace is cut off the the kiln formed piece. leaving only the flat glass design made from what ever tested compatible glass you like Bullseye, Uroboros or Spectrum.

Sky Campbell
07-11-2009, 06:18 PM
I have been working on the roll up technique using knobs. Like the ends of pieces that have been pulled off to make what I call a monkey bread plate. This process is particularly interesting to me and I would like to develop it. And so I would like to work with other options to enhance my designs. So my question/s is what types of flat glass (companies) work well with Spruce Pine Batch. What are the different factors to consider when combining a flat glass with SP? Also are there certain colors of rod (Kugler,Reichenbach,, Zimmermann) that do not work well with the flat sheets? I know that is a bad question because of many varibles. I am thinking like particular known color combinations of sheet #'s and bar? What companies sell the flat stuff (sources)?
Also, I am going to experiment with a ceramic kiln shelf/kiln & kiln wash. How do I go about keeping the wash particles off the glass? I ve seen different people use a wicker brush, or some sort of brush?
Art Ciccotti

Ok I have to ask. Could you please post a pic or a link of what your making? I'm not sure I know what a "monkey bread plate" is.

I love the fusible sprectrum 96 line they also have frit, powder and cane.

Kurt Johnson
07-12-2009, 12:43 AM
Art,
Why do you heat the roll-up on a kiln shelf? I thought that they were heated on a plate, like a cane pickup.
I haven't done one, but I am interested in the process.
thanks,
Kurt

David Patchen
07-12-2009, 01:47 AM
One should heat all cane and murrine on a properly washed kiln shelf. Steel is for sadists. Totally unecessary assistant abuse.

Kurt Johnson
07-12-2009, 11:10 AM
One should heat all cane and murrine on a properly washed kiln shelf. Steel is for sadists. Totally unecessary assistant abuse.

David,
Ok, I'll bite! I am a lamp worker, but I have done pickups many times from hot steel plates. When I watch the live feed from the Tacoma MOG I see many artists using a plate heated in an oven and then in the glory hole to pick up both canes and flat sheet glass.
Why is this considered assistant abuse?
Thanks,
Kurt

David Patchen
07-12-2009, 05:30 PM
Steel is ok for really small pickups, but for anything sizeable a steel plate is going to weigh a ton more than the equivalent sized plate of kiln shelf. I often pickup from a kilnshelf plate that's 12 x 20". If it was made from steel it'd be impossible to move around. I just don't see the benefit--steel just seems totally unecessary.

Scott Garrelts
07-14-2009, 05:02 PM
Steel is ok for really small pickups, but for anything sizeable a steel plate is going to weigh a ton more than the equivalent sized plate of kiln shelf. I often pickup from a kilnshelf plate that's 12 x 20". If it was made from steel it'd be impossible to move around. I just don't see the benefit--steel just seems totally unecessary.

I use kilnshelf(14" square) when i fuse murrini in the gloryhole, by myself. I cant afford to lug around 10 extra iron pounds and open doors and tool and......... I still use a steinart iron cane marver for plain old straight cane. I just put the whole thing in the garage and roll over it with a strip gather over a bubble. I like being able to use thick/thin cane in the same roll up and those grooves make that possible by allowing me to space the cane.

ive experimented with mild steel, stainless steel and kilnshelf for glory fusing. hands down KILN SHELF!! One LIGHT coat of kiln wash can last you many fusings. before you use it, just run your finger over it and if you see white, your ok. at least this has been my experiance. you can cut pieces of kilnshelf to put on the sides of your cane/murrini so the edges dont get to hot and melty before the middle does.

I know a guy who fuses a lot of sheet glass in a kiln and he seems to prefer Spectrum. He says bullseye has more bubbles. Pull your own cane....just do it, dont buy it.

Art Ciccotti
07-21-2009, 08:36 AM
Sky,
I will try to post a photo of one of my Monkey Bread Plates. I call it that because the knobs (on the inside of the plate) leave a texture much like the monkey bread I used to make with my children when they were small. The outside or bottom of the plate is smooth because the knobs will have been gathered over and smoothed out. But when the plate is spoun open the texture on the inside or side facing up remains. Its very fun to do because the knobs are all random colors. So the piece (aside from reminding me of a chunk of monkey bread) look very stained glass like. Much like a mosiac of chunk glass. Actually check out my web site ( ciccottiartglass.com) look on the gallery page, right about in the middle you can see a not so good image of one.

Sky Campbell
07-21-2009, 11:27 PM
Sky,
I will try to post a photo of one of my Monkey Bread Plates. I call it that because the knobs (on the inside of the plate) leave a texture much like the monkey bread I used to make with my children when they were small. The outside or bottom of the plate is smooth because the knobs will have been gathered over and smoothed out. But when the plate is spoun open the texture on the inside or side facing up remains. Its very fun to do because the knobs are all random colors. So the piece (aside from reminding me of a chunk of monkey bread) look very stained glass like. Much like a mosiac of chunk glass. Actually check out my web site ( ciccottiartglass.com) look on the gallery page, right about in the middle you can see a not so good image of one.


I love the concept and the piece on the web page would have me guessing if you didn't explain it. Thanks for the update.

Art Ciccotti
07-22-2009, 08:07 AM
You should search the archives for threads on these different topics--there's a ton of info on kilnwashing shelves, compatability, etc. I think what you'll find will add up to this:

- The only flat glass that you can gather over is System 96 stuff. I've used lots of Uroboros, but I think Spectrum makes it too. I've never had any compatibility issues w/System 96 and Spruce Pine. Its generally pretty soft stuff so you have to be extra careful with it or you'll have sticking problems.
- If you're combining rod with Sys96 flat glass you'll probably do best by using color by the same manufacturer (I'd pickup flat for small stuff like lips) or use rod that's specifically designed for 96 like Gaffer or Pete's Flying Colors. You can find Kugler, and the others that may fit, but you're probably more likely to have problems. No matter what, casing your flat glass w/SP before adding colors from other manufacturers you'll probably reduce your chances of trouble. Sometimes color is fits the clear but it won't fit the other color so a layer between the two helps.
- Wash your plates really evenly w/something like bullseye kiln wash just enough for full coverage, let them fully dry, then *don't overheat your glass* on it. If you're careful you won't have any sticking and after you pick up you can use a small handheld brush or moist cotton rag to quickly wipe off any dust. If it sticks you've either gotten the glass too hot or done a poor job of washing. Take short flashes to warm it up--don't just let it sit in the hole or the edges will flow and stick.

Good luck!
Hello David,
Thanks for the input. So as I understand what you 're saying is that the spruce pine 87 works with the spectrum and at least some of the colors of Kugler? And that layering the spruce pine between colors of say spectrum and kugler could reduce chances of trouble?
Art Ciccotti

Eric Miller
07-26-2009, 07:20 PM
I've been wondering about this too...

David P. mentions above "The only flat glass that you can gather over is System 96 stuff....I've never had any compatibility issues w/System 96 and Spruce Pine."

Why is it that System96 (96COE) works well with Spruce Pine (87COE)? Is the fact that its a thin sheet allow the COE diff to be absorbed with some stress in the glass that is not enough to snap it?

Also, I've seen videos and heard people talk about "Bullseye Rollups", but bullseye does not seem to produce a product that is marketed to or even suitable for furnace work. However, thier website says thier products with the "fusable" tag are 90COE...which means it should work (even better) than the System96?

Anybody out there done any furnace work picking up Bullseye on a collar and gathering over it?

Are there any other products besides Sys96 and Bullseye that might work with Spruce Pine batch?

Larry Cazes
07-26-2009, 07:49 PM
Spruce Pine IS engineered to be 96 COE.

David Patchen
07-26-2009, 08:09 PM
Spruce Pine 87 is named very poorly because it's a 96 COE/LEC (someone fight over this!) glass. :)

SO--if you're going to dip a rollup in a 96 glass, the rollup needs to also be made of 96 COE glass. That's why you need to use System 96 flat glass for rollups you're planning on gathering over.

You can most definitely roll up glass that's not 96, you just can't gather Spruce Pine over it. Roll up bullseye or whatever and just use only the rollup. Some people also heat up a scrap on the rollup plate and use it on the tip of their punty so there's no incompatible glass on the punty, but I've heard this isn't critical. It's pretty simple to use compatible glass for the punty so why risk it?

Eric Miller
07-26-2009, 09:20 PM
oh brother...I read the specs too fast:

English and Turner calculated C.O.E: 87.3 F <<WTF is this lol.
Measured C.O.E: 96-97 x 10^7/deg. C

Thanks David, for the clarification.

So...bullseye does NOT offer a product you can use with furnace glass. As you said, Sys96 is the only way to go for the sheetie stuff.

Scott Dunahee
07-26-2009, 09:54 PM
My studio mate is a fuser who uses Bullseye glass. She has around a ton of scrap clear laying around the shop.

Last year I had her buy a pot for my furnace and now whenever she wants when we are otherwise down, we'll throw in her pot for a week or two and sandcast the Bullseye. It works pretty well as a hot casting glass - no devit, but some green shows in the thicker pieces.

I've done a rollup of her sheet stock by gathering the collar for the pickup and applying a big cookie foot gathered from the pot. I have also spent a small amount of time playing with it as a blowing glass and while I don't find it to be a spectacular glass, I was able to make several goblets with it that were very okay by my goblet standards.

I use the same melt cycle I use for the 96 spectrum nuggets and get satisfactory melts (elevate to 2165 for 3 hours and soak at 2000 thereafter - it kicks off the antimony mono/pentavalent thing). There are some cords, especially at the bottom. Stirring it helps a lot.

It'd be an expensive clear to blow if not utilizing scrap from a fusing operation. Being able to have it hot changes our working possibilities in a pretty big way.

BSD

Art Ciccotti
07-27-2009, 02:01 PM
Hey Kurt,
I ve never tried the kiln shelf method only a flat plate of steel. When I try the kiln shelf I ll write back and give you my own observations. With the Monkey bread plates I make I ve had some luck keeping the glass clean as long as I avoided the wash. However I am beginning to think fron David P's reply that applying the kiln wash is as crittical of a step as everything else. The steel plate is heavy even for the size of pieces I make. This heaviness also makes it hard to keep from rotating the pole when the cane or other glass is on the surface because it is so awkward to handle. The kiln shelf is considerably lighter. So as soon as I can get the necessary pieces together for this new technique I will write you back.
Art Ciccotti
ciccottiartglass.com (http://ciccottiartglass.com)

Kenny Pieper
07-27-2009, 02:35 PM
Also something none has mentioned yet is how to apply the wash to a kiln shelf. It works best to soak the shelf first and apply the wash in a thin solution while it is still wet. This way the wash soaks into the material instead of sitting just on the surface. Ideally there should be a slightly lighter color to the surface than the rest of the kinlshelf when dried. Kind of chalky looking. Often when I want to resurface the plate after many many uses I will just wet the the surface and rub my hand around on it. This will bring up more wash to the top. Too much on the surface and the glass is more likley to pick up some of the wash.

David Patchen
07-27-2009, 03:49 PM
That's a new technique for applying kiln wash, interesting. I generally get the plates warm enough so that when I brush the wash on the water quickly steams off. I like doing it this way because I can do a number of coats and the plate dries almost immedietly in between coats. I can apply the wash a bit thinner in a number of even layers this way and the shelf never gets saturated, so I don't need to dry it out for hours. (I've found if you stick a shelf with even a tiny bit of moisture in the GH it can crack). I also run my hand across the surface and blow off the dust right after a wash so the loosest stuff blows off vs. sticking to my glass.

Kenny, if you're ever back in N Cal I want some reticello coaching. Been doing a few and hard to get them as perfect as yours :)

Kurt Johnson
07-27-2009, 04:31 PM
Because I do many firings of small work and I do not go over 1450 F, I find that I can get several firings out of one wash.
I apply it to a cold shelf (well so cal cold, 90 F humidity 20%)and I use a 4 inch brush. I just make complete strokes across my 14 inch shelf, then I turn it 90 degrees and do it again. I make 5 or 6 coats. When I am done fusing I just sand lightly with a 220 grit sponge block. Then wipe off with a dry rag to remove dust. The fuse marks go away and it's just like new. I am using that blue kiln wash that changes color after full fusing temps, but I never get that hot.
Even if my application is wonky, I just sand lightly and I am good to go.
Kurt

David Patchen
07-27-2009, 05:39 PM
For murrine and cane pickups I get about a years out of each washing. I have many plates so each is used about once a week.

Kurt Johnson
07-27-2009, 07:38 PM
For murrine and cane pickups I get about a years out of each washing. I have many plates so each is used about once a week.
You are the man!
Kurt

Sky Campbell
07-28-2009, 12:28 AM
For murrine and cane pickups I get about a years out of each washing. I have many plates so each is used about once a week.

I just flipped thru the new american craft and the piece for pismo is awesome. Great form and I just love the reverse axis. Congrats

http://pismoglass.com/searchresults.php?artistId=10021035&start=1&showtitle=10031351&cat=o

Franklin Sankar
07-28-2009, 07:37 AM
David that piece - Pismo is the greatest. It just hits you with a wow. Just when you think they made it all and you cant find something new.
Now did you say that the secret was that you bathe once a year.:confused: Opps sorry I see its the plate you talking about.
:)
Franklin

Dave Bross
07-28-2009, 07:44 AM
If you use the Spectrum one thing you don't want to do is to get it too thin. The color gets very dull.

Example: pulling bead cane, if I pick it up as cane rollup then it will stretch to any length and look good due to thickness of canes. If I just pick up the flat pieces almost any stretch at all makes for dull color.

Kenny Pieper
07-28-2009, 07:51 AM
That's a new technique for applying kiln wash, interesting. I generally get the plates warm enough so that when I brush the wash on the water quickly steams off. I like doing it this way because I can do a number of coats and the plate dries almost immedietly in between coats. I can apply the wash a bit thinner in a number of even layers this way and the shelf never gets saturated, so I don't need to dry it out for hours. (I've found if you stick a shelf with even a tiny bit of moisture in the GH it can crack). I also run my hand across the surface and blow off the dust right after a wash so the loosest stuff blows off vs. sticking to my glass.

Kenny, if you're ever back in N Cal I want some reticello coaching. Been doing a few and hard to get them as perfect as yours :)

well I try to stress that there are many ways to do something and I am not one to know (the right way). I guess this is the way I was shown years ago and it works well for me. I also get years of use from a single coating of wash on a shelf. Some times doing 10 to 12 pickups a day. But then canes dont need to get as hot or have as many heats as other types of pickups.


David I will be coming to San Francisco in sep to do some backpacking in the sierras with my old buds. I wont have a lot of extra time but maybe I will try to drop by the Public Glass to check it out. It was set up after I moved away.

David Patchen
07-28-2009, 11:52 AM
Thanks re: the piece in the Pismo ad. I was pretty happy with it as well. No kiln wash :)

And Franklin *can* probably smell me from SF based on how/too much garlic I loaded onto my pizza last night.

Franklin Sankar
07-29-2009, 06:59 AM
Dave how do you usually make your canes from sheet spectrum?
Franklin

David Patchen
07-29-2009, 11:31 AM
I make all cane from rod color. The veiled cane is enamel white with a transparent color over it, two gathers of clear and pull. White twisty cane is all Gaffer dura white.

Ben Solwitz
07-29-2009, 12:38 PM
Have you tried out any of the other dura colors yet? I pulled some twisty cane out of the green about a week ago that came out pretty cool.

Scott Young
07-31-2009, 10:30 AM
I've tried all the dura colors. Yellow is not very vibrant, but the only one I don't like is black (seems like dark grey to me) Your mileage may vary...

Ben Solwitz
07-31-2009, 12:03 PM
Yeah some people were talking about the black here a few weeks ago, it's supposed to strike darker but the consensus was that it's more of a dark slate grey.

Mike Firth
07-31-2009, 11:39 PM
Spectrum makes a System 96 cullet, or they used to.
I use Paragon's Glass Separator which comes dry and makes a creamy liquid. There directions for application http://www.paragonweb.com/faqinfo.cfm?faqid=184
work very well for me. Although not in this document and earlier version specifically said that when brushing with a fingertip to smooth, leave dust on the surface. Unless I am really pushing it on a bent clay mold I do not get sticking and when it does stick, a soaking in water and a stiff brush take it off.