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David Trent
03-12-2010, 07:35 PM
new here.

hoping to get some guidance on the basic components of the wiring of an annealer.

like, I know there are elements on one end, and 220V on the other, and computer controller somewhere in the middle, but what are all the relays and ohter parts, where do they go...how does it all fit together?

is there a drawing or diagram out there that shows this?

thank you.

Pete VanderLaan
03-13-2010, 07:32 AM
Pg 242 of the 4th edition of Glassnotes shows an interesting drawing of a simple wiring diamgram Fritz did about forty years ago, but it's not very good.

Think of it like this:
Power comes in in two hot legs that go into a switching mechanism called a relay. You put the two hot leads on one side of the relay and then the outbound power on the other side which gets hooked to both ends of your 240V element. The relay is controlled by a solenoid if it's mechanical. Mercury relays last longer than mechanicals but are getting harder to legally use. When power is applied to the solenoid on the relay, the circuit closes and power flows to the element you have. When power is withdrawn, the circuit opens and power to the element shuts off. The controller has a thermocouple input on it which measures milliamps from the thermocouple. Your controller has adjustable settings on it which when the milliamps are matched with the thermocouple, power goes from the controller to the solenoid on the relay. When the controller to the gets turned on, or off,that in turn powers or shuts off the element.

It's just a big assed light switch with some bells and whistles. That's actually true of a moly furnace as well. It just has a rectifier in line which breaks the sine wave up into manageable bite size chunks.

If you can, just go and look in someone's control panel and follow the wires. It's not hard if you are remotely mechanically inclined.

David Trent
03-14-2010, 08:53 AM
Thank you for the detailed response Mr. VanderLaan. I do not have a copy of that book at the moment, but I just ordered it online. you mention that the diagram is not very good, im hoping somebody here has a simple one or could draw one that is usable and post it. thanks again.

Pete VanderLaan
03-14-2010, 09:49 AM
You are way too polite to survive in cyberspace David. I don't have the patience to draw stuff and then make prints of it in computerland. I am sure some deft soul will jump in here. Any simple electricity made easy book would show a diamgram of the principals I'm talking about. Follow the written word.

Dennis Hetland
03-14-2010, 11:36 AM
This link will tell you way more about control circuits than you ever wanted to know. http://www.thelearningpit.comhttp://www.thelearningpit.com

Ben Solwitz
03-14-2010, 02:23 PM
Check out the Digitry GB1 manual, it has a bunch of diagrams, starting around page 33:
http://www.digitry.com/pdfs/gb1aman.pdf
The Watlow 982 manual has more technical diagrams, if that's what you're looking for:
http://www.watlow.com/literature/prodtechinfo/files/controllers/series%20982%20rev.r%2001-12-07.pdf

David Trent
03-14-2010, 05:44 PM
thank you, Ben. the GB1 document link you sent has the exact type of diagrams I'm looking for, several good ones actually. what is a good source for the parts needed to re-wire an annealer like the relays, controllers, etc.?

Pete VanderLaan
03-14-2010, 06:26 PM
DuraLite in Riverton Ct 888-432-8797 will make you elements to order and is the single best source of them I know of.

Controllers
***********
Dwyer (Love) controllers is one supplier www.love-control.com
Fuji www.fujielectric.com
Digitry www.digitry.com

Relays
*************8
Continental Industries int
www.cicontrols.com/contact

Payne Engineering
www.payneng.com

As well as Graingers and McMaster Carr

The book you have bought from Henry Halem "Glassnotes" will have extensive sources of suppliers in the back.

Dennis Hetland
03-17-2010, 03:15 PM
What type of wire goes from my terminal block to the pig tails of my wire elements? Is it type PFAH or TFE? I'm sure it must be nickel or nickel alloy, but what type is it and where is the best place to buy it?

Jordan Kube
03-17-2010, 03:23 PM
842 F Braided Wire

Great for internal wiring of an oven, this
flexible single-conductor wire withstands
temperatures up to 842 F. Also called lead wire and Type MG wire,
it has a stranded nickel-plated annealed copper conductor with an
insulation of glass-reinforced mica tape covered with a braided fiberglass
jacket. Temperature range is 40 to +842 F. Color is tan. UL
recognized and CSA certified. Maximum continuous length is 100 ft.

I use this stuff from Mcmaster Carr in a pinch.

Lawrence Duckworth
03-17-2010, 09:09 PM
new here.

hoping to get some guidance on the basic components of the wiring of an annealer.

like, I know there are elements on one end, and 220V on the other, and computer controller somewhere in the middle, but what are all the relays and ohter parts, where do they go...how does it all fit together?

is there a drawing or diagram out there that shows this?

thank you.

I’m new too, is there any chance you might post photos of the build?

Dennis Hetland
03-17-2010, 11:06 PM
Thanks Jordan.


That's some nice looking equipment Lawrence.

Rick Sherbert
03-18-2010, 07:05 AM
Mr. VanderLaan..
.........:)

David Trent
03-28-2010, 11:52 AM
what are "SSR"s and "SCR"s, and where do they fit into the equation?

Ben Solwitz
03-28-2010, 12:09 PM
Solid State Relays are electronic switches, like a mercury relay, but all electronic. Silicon Controlled Rectifiers are solid state devices for controlling current, they limit the power going to resistive heating elements like those used in moly or kanthal a1 furnaces or annealers. Most people don't use them for a1 elements but you can get better element life because you can run the elements continuously at 50% or 60% or whatever instead of switching them between 0% and 100%.

David Trent
03-28-2010, 12:26 PM
i think this is the best diagram I've seen so far. Neither the halem nor the giberson books have a wiring diagram, which is surprising. this diagram is for a furnace not an annealer but the general principal i think is the same. a couple things about this diagram confuses me:

what is the plug for? i get that the 110v receptacle powers the temp controller and the 220v receptacle powers the elements but i don't get the whole plug thing on the bottom left. (or, the 220v plug powers the elemts and i don't get the whole 220 receptacle on the bottom right)

Ben Solwitz
03-28-2010, 12:50 PM
It looks like the 220v plug on the left is powering the whole system and the system is providing 110v and 220v receptacles on the right.

Dave Hilty
03-28-2010, 01:17 PM
This is essentially the way mine is wired. Ben is right. The plug is the power supply to the entire circuit feeding 110v to the Fuji, the relay that breaks power to the elements when the door is opened and the 110 V receptacle. Don't know what you might need that receptacle for but the easy answer on the 220 V. receptacle is it's an easy way to pick up power from the control circuit to be fed to the elements. Off the shelf hardware store dryer plug & wire package is what I used to feed the anealler elements. It's convenient to use a compatible 220 v receptacle mounted in the control box to plug in the elements.

David Trent
03-28-2010, 02:41 PM
This is essentially the way mine is wired. Ben is right. The plug is the power supply to the entire circuit feeding 110v to the Fuji, the relay that breaks power to the elements when the door is opened and the 110 V receptacle. Don't know what you might need that receptacle for but the easy answer on the 220 V. receptacle is it's an easy way to pick up power from the control circuit to be fed to the elements. Off the shelf hardware store dryer plug & wire package is what I used to feed the anealler elements. It's convenient to use a compatible 220 v receptacle mounted in the control box to plug in the elements.

i think i got it. please tell me if i am mistaken:
i orignally thought the 110v receptacle was used to plug in the adapter for the fuji, but the plug/adapter was not being shown in the daigram. i think i realize now this is not the case. we are not sure why the 100v receptacle is being used.

so the entire system is powered by the 220v plug in the bottom left. the fuji is running off just the L1 leg of that 220v, which is only 110v since its just one leg.

since the fuji doesn't draw much, L1 can still be used to power an element, which is "the top one" in the drawing.

L2 powers the bottom element

the 220v receptacle is just a cheap way to close the circuits on the other end..

Dave Hilty
03-28-2010, 06:01 PM
If you really are feeding two separate elements rather than one as I have, then you need to wire the ends of the elements in parallel to L1 & L2. ie. L1 feeds end A of elements one & two while L2 closes the resistive loop as it is attached to ends B of both elements.

Pete VanderLaan
03-28-2010, 06:39 PM
Pg 242 of Glassnotes. It's fritz's drawing from 1970 . Get a magnifying glass. It's a terrible drawing.

Eric Miller
03-28-2010, 08:20 PM
David-

The diagram that you seek can be found at the beginning of Disk 2 of Mark Lauckner's 40 lb wire melter videos (http://www.mayneislandglass.com/40poundfurnace.htm). He actually draws the diagram on a big piece of butcher paper, explains it, lays out the components on the paper, and then spends 30m or so of video explaining how to wire it all together.

In fact, the .pdf you posted is from somebody's (Drew Fritts?) variation of Mark's 15 lb wire melter, which he doesn't sell videos for anymore.

Everything will be the same for your annealer wiring except the way you program the controller and the elements you use.

Get Mark's videos and all your questions will be answered, they are $45. I would have paid twice that for them.

Hope this helps.

Rick Wilton
03-28-2010, 10:55 PM
in that drawing why is there a SSR AND a mercury relay. The SSR appear to only be used to turn the MDR on and off. Why not loose the MDR ( they are illegal now anyway in many places) and just run two SSR. That's how I wired my stuff.

Dave Hilty
03-29-2010, 07:52 AM
The ssr controls the 220 feed to the elements via the 220 v. receptacle. The MDR isn't controlled by the ssr, it breaks the circuits so no voltage flows to the elements when the door is open. (see the microswitch actuated by a dog or whatever on the door of the annealer). SSR's leak voltage even when open so they don't provide the complete break in voltage that a mechanical or mercury relay will.

Rick Wilton
03-29-2010, 10:06 AM
DAve,

Got ya, then why is the SSR on a 10 amp.

Rick Wilton
03-29-2010, 11:34 AM
either I've forgotten how to read a schematic or what?

The way I read the drawing the SSR is only going to the MDR controls to turn the MDR on and off. Yes there is a door switch but it is not connected to the SSR at all.

What am I missing?

Dennis Hetland
03-29-2010, 11:43 AM
First of all there is no such thing as 220/110 volt service in the US anymore. It's 240/120. Maybe that wiring diagram says it. If it does it must be really old.
Second the leakage from a solid state relay is micro and not the safety issue. The safety issue is that an ssr is a single pole switch and only opens one leg of the 240. This stops the flow of current through the elements, but does not isolate them. If you were to touch the element when the ssr was open and be grounded ( be touching something that was grounded at the same time) you would get hit with 120 volts at twice the current/amps that your annealer normally runs at. The ssr may be open, but the other end of the element is still tied to a wire that is tied to a breaker in a panel. So if you touch it you're touching the breaker.
I'm sure the MDR in the wiring diagram is a 2 pole which would break both legs of the 240 and isolate the elements from any electrical connection.

Dave Hilty
03-29-2010, 12:46 PM
To add fuel to the fire, the way I'm reading the print, something is screwed up. One side of the MDR coil (which is supposed to be fed by 120v) is fed from Line 1 or leg one through the microswitch. The other side of the coil is fed L2 or leg 2 power when the SSR is closed. This is wrong. My guess is that the print should show a connection from the 2/TI lead on the SSR down to the neutral leg. This would then tie in to the rating on the SSR & the Coil rating on the MDR. Still doesn't explain why he's using the SSR to fire the MDR instead of just putting in an SSR that's rated for the 220 load & directly switching the element power with the SSR leaving the MDR to break both legs of the 240V whenever the door is opened.

Dennis Hetland
03-29-2010, 02:26 PM
I was reading this thread backwards. I found the diagram and it looks like his control voltage is DC and he's not concerned with element life. It's an annealer. So to control the MDR he used an SSR.
Maybe in the old days they had fewer options on controller and relay voltages.

Pete VanderLaan
03-29-2010, 05:54 PM
Hey if you want old, check out that page 242 in glassnotes. It's probably stamped approved by Thomas Edison.

Eric Miller
03-29-2010, 06:49 PM
First of all there is no such thing as 220/110 volt service in the US anymore. It's 240/120. Maybe that wiring diagram says it. If it does it must be really old.

...or, derived from a schematic drawn by a Canadian, as it were.

Rick Sherbert
03-30-2010, 08:22 AM
To add fuel to the fire, the way I'm reading the print, something is screwed up. One side of the MDR coil (which is supposed to be fed by 120v) is fed from Line 1 or leg one through the microswitch. The other side of the coil is fed L2 or leg 2 power when the SSR is closed. This is wrong. My guess is that the print should show a connection from the 2/TI lead on the SSR down to the neutral leg. This would then tie in to the rating on the SSR & the Coil rating on the MDR. .

Yeah Dave, I thought so too. Or the coil of the MDR should be 240v

Pete VanderLaan
03-30-2010, 11:48 AM
...or, derived from a schematic drawn by a Canadian, as it were.
***********
From Alberta.

Rick Wilton
03-30-2010, 01:08 PM
I didn't draw anything (if you mean me) . The schematic appears to be from the US, I just pointed out some strange (to me at least) things. Using a SSR (relatively high tech) to control a MDR (old school) You can't legally get MDR is many states or in Alberta.

Eric Miller
03-30-2010, 05:51 PM
I didn't draw anything (if you mean me) . The schematic appears to be from the US, I just pointed out some strange (to me at least) things. Using a SSR (relatively high tech) to control a MDR (old school) You can't legally get MDR is many states or in Alberta.

Since the schematic was drawn by Drew Fritts, who is a member of CraftWeb...perhaps he will pop in here and explain it all into clarity for us?

Pete VanderLaan
03-31-2010, 05:08 AM
This is the point where plausible deniability starts to get important....

Drew Fritts
03-31-2010, 08:52 AM
First of all , I apologize because I didn't realize this thread had started posing questions about my wiring diagram and I hadn't been reading it.

1. The diagram is based on Mark Lauckner's design of a portable controller box. The plug on the left is a dryer cord that plugs into a standard dryer receptacle. That way the controller can be moved to power different units in the shop.

2. The two receptacles on the right side are an either/or situation. The 2-way switch controls which receptacle is powered. The reason for that setup is that I have some units that require 240v and some that require 120v in my shop. So, depending on which unit I'm controlling I simply throw the switch to turn on the appropriate outlet. I use an R-type thermocouple that stays connected to the controller and fits into each of my furnaces and annealers, so I simply move it to the unit I'm going to use. The lid switches have quick-connect plugs so the wires are disconnected at the lid switch and moved as well.

3. As for the distinction between 220/110 or 240/120 - I'm sorry for the confusion - I'll fix it.

4. Dave Hilty is correct that there is an error regarding the coil voltage for the MDR. In the diagram the coil voltage should actually read 240v. I have several different controllers - some with 120v coils and some with 240v coils. That was an oversight when I was printing the PDF file. I'll fix it. For a 120v coil the only change that is needed is to run 2/T1 from the SSR to neutral instead of the L2 power. I'll put a 120v version out there as well. Thanks Dave.

5. It has also been pointed out to me via PM that the diagram doesn't currently show a separate ground wire that can be used as a frame ground for whatever unit is plugged into it. I'll change the diagram to be a 4-wire plug with a separate ground wire for that purpose.


If you have other suggestions or questions I'll be sure to keep reading this thread for a while.

Eric Miller
03-31-2010, 09:33 AM
First of all , I apologize because I didn't realize this thread had started posing questions about my wiring diagram and I hadn't been reading it. (SNIP) If you have other suggestions or questions I'll be sure to keep reading this thread for a while.

minor details aside, though..that is a really good diagram. The thread starter is correct that there really isn't a good wiring diagram in either of the two "holy grail" books for this stuff, and your diagram is one of the best out there.

Dave (Trent) attached is what I think you are looking for. Drew's improvements on the basic concept might make the whole thing confusing without something simpler for context.

But, do yourself a favor like I said and just buy Mark's CD. For the specific purposes of wiring a kiln, annealer, or wire melter, his CD is a much better resource than either GNotes/GBCompanion books.

His vids, plus the diagram I attach here should make the whole shebang pretty easy to address. (the diagram comes from Dudley's website (http://www.joppaglass.com/), which is also a very good resource for all things electrical, if you can find your way around it. Book, not so much, website, yes)

hope this helps.

Drew Fritts
03-31-2010, 10:53 AM
Thanks Eric...

I think I've fixed the problems mentioned so far... Here are the two new versions - one with a 120v coil and one with a 240v coil:

120v Coil Version (http://frittsartglass.com/marbles/articles/images/crucible/Fuji%20Control%20Box%20120v%20Coil.pdf)

240v Coil Version (http://frittsartglass.com/marbles/articles/images/crucible/Fuji%20Control%20Box%20240v%20Coil.pdf)

I removed the text at the top that specified that it was a 30 Amp control box because it's really independent of the breaker amperage. I run one of these on a 50 Amp furnace as well as several 30 Amp uints.

To clarify, for those of you who haven't seen one of these Lauckner-style controllers in person, EVERYTHING in the schematic (with the exception of the 240v plug on the left [which is a dryer pigtail], the thermocouple, and the lid switch) is contained in an 8 x 8 electrical box.

The advantages of this type of control box are that they are portable, they are plug-and-play, and the expensive parts (the thermocouple and the MDR) are only purchased for as many controllers as you want, not the number of units that you want to run. Obviously, this is only a savings if you have annealers, pick-up ovens, furnaces, warmers, kilns, etc. that you only want to run occasionally.

Another advantage of this design is that you can use whichever brand of digital controller you want. It doesn't have to be a Fuji as shown. It simply has to have a pulsed voltage output to run the SSR in this design.

Pete VanderLaan
03-31-2010, 05:00 PM
I will move this thread to Antiques and Classics since it deals with such a fundamental issue. Nice work people!