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View Full Version : Nugget compatibility with System 96 colors


Mike_Amis
08-24-2011, 10:02 AM
Im going to be using an Electroglass furnace for a wile and im reluctant use the regular nuggets due to the gassing off issues. I regularly make parts with hot color from Kokomo Opalescent Glass and Spectrum 96 and had finally worked out what worked with the regular nuggets.

Im trying to work out which to melt Spectrum premium nuggets or Spruce Pine nuggets or just go back to SP batch.

Has any one tested the compatibility of the premium nuggets or spruce pine nuggets with the system 96 colors to find out what works and what dosent? Ive read through the old threads on the subject but im wondering if any one has any new info.

If I have too use the regular nuggets Im thinking of casting a new door with a port in it for letting gasses out during charging what would the best castable be? I was thinking something like Kruzite or Mizzou. Kast o lite 30 gets eaten buy the regular nuggets.

James Ennis
08-24-2011, 10:31 AM
regular nuggets. just do it, it works.

Scott Novota
08-24-2011, 11:04 AM
Mike,


Would you be willing to let me know which of the system96 color worked well for you with the regular nuggets? I have a small color melter and would love to melt a couple of those just for fun.

Thanks.

Dave Bross
08-24-2011, 12:32 PM
Which reminds me...I still have many, many 5 gal. buckets of Spectrum sitting out back. OK though, I have a possible purpose for them.

All the transparent colors I tried (most of the usual) worked (no fit issues) but the colors are dull. Even under a nice clear.

Opaques work if you pick them up as-is off a hot plate. If you melt them and then try to use them they won't fit. The kind of "won't fit" where they crack later. The opaques are not very dense at all. Stretch them much and there's very little there. Nice for paperweights and such though.

David Hopman
08-24-2011, 02:46 PM
I think the cherry red is pretty nice.

Dave Bross
08-25-2011, 05:05 AM
True, that one isn't dull and is a very nice red.

Forgot about that one.

Is anyone still selling the 5 gal. buckets of the spectrum color drops?

Mike_Amis
08-25-2011, 06:31 AM
I have used all the colors bellow and they where okay. I've had problems with their whites. Spectrum Reds seem a bit muddy so I always get my red from Uroboros they have the best red I've ever used but then again I've yet to try Petes red. So far the KOG colors that I've tried and that work are 650 green, 701 blue grey, 690 green and 806 redish purple.

Im making making parts that are sawn and drilled so its going through alot after its blown, ive also used the the colors to make murrini. I normally do a ring test as well.

Spectrum 96 colors
230-76 SF Blue Colbalt
267-72 SF Yellow
220-76 SF Opal Dark Green
1009 SF Black
240-74 SF Lilac Opal
233-74 SF Turq Blue
110.2 SF  Pale Amber
152 SF Ruby Red
111.sf Dark amber
110.8sf Medium amber
110.4sf Light amber

Pete VanderLaan
08-25-2011, 08:16 AM
I don't think the stuff in Dave's five gallon buckers of color drops are system 96. They are a different formula and my recollection is that they were no a good fit. System 96 is a guaranteed fit, much like that from Bullseye for their 90 L.E.C. stuff. The new Spectrum "premium" may yield fit issues with 96 type glasses or so people who have been using it have told me and there are more than of few of them speaking up. You have to test, pure and simple. Glass doesn't come from a squeeze tube. It has physical issues and the tolerances are quite demanding.

David Patchen
08-25-2011, 11:48 AM
I use all sorts of Sys 96 rod colors with Spruce Pine and I've never had a fit problem. Works great.

Scott Novota
08-25-2011, 01:47 PM
I did not know system 96 came in rod form. Interesting.

Pete VanderLaan
08-25-2011, 04:15 PM
The stuff Dave has in Buckets is not System 96. They make more than one glass.

Greg Vriethoff
08-25-2011, 10:56 PM
I did not know system 96 came in rod form. Interesting.
They're rods for torch working, not bars like Kugler...in case that's what anyone was thinking.

Dave Bross
08-28-2011, 05:06 PM
The stuff I got in buckets was System 96 but that was unusual. I'll explain in a minute.

That's why the only problems I had were if I re-melted the opals and that the transparent colors aren't very bright or dense. It's good for many things anyway.

In the era that I got drops from them they were getting the red from Uroboros and that was the red I loved. The Washington state enviro folks had made them stop melting reds. Their yellow must be a cerium/titanium or sulphur yellow because they weren't shut down on that one so obviously not Cadmium. This was all ten years ago.

The people I used to get it from have a lot of pull with Spectrum. They buy by the freight container full and it was a special order deal. You also had to wait for that container to fill with orders and then find it's way from the Pacific ocean to the Atlantic. That no longer works because the original owner retired and the son is running the business now. That's why I was curious about sourcing it anywhere else. C.R. Loo had buckets but the price was WAY up there for what it is.

Phil used to have the System 96 canes, he may still. They're not inexpensive either.

There's probably a nice little sideline possible for someone to get the huge super sacks of drops from Spectrum (that's the only way they sell it to those who aren't "hooked up") and resell it in smaller quantities. Glass cullet ships cheap on a freight truck.

George Bland
11-21-2012, 04:59 PM
Last week I called the number on Spectrums web site, option 2 from the auto attendant, left a message about quantity and ordering and to my surprise I received a call back. Seems you can order Sys 96 cullet by the 50 lb pail directly. They charge an additional 5 or 6 bucks for the 5 gallon pail. So I ordered 3 different colors to play with in my electric melter. Cherry red, white and black.

Dave Bross
11-22-2012, 06:41 AM
Thanks for posting that.

I had written this off as "no longer available" and there are some applications it's just perfect for so that's good news.

Very good on Spectrum's part...probably because they were drowning in drops. Their system at the factory makes a LOT of drops.

A couple more things I remembered tech wise....

You want original nuggets for fit.

The purples are hanging on the ragged edge of having enough oxygen to show color. Run them in an even slightly reducing glory and you'll get transparent.

Read what I posted above about the opaques.

Andrew Brott
11-30-2012, 04:36 AM
Interesting read.
Some of what I do is kiln cast using blown/solid parts.
Was raised and learned on Gabert C-4, but was spoiled and got good at blowin thin with batch, so I found it a drag to revert to 96 cullet for my wire melters health , so I switched to premium in the hopes of having longer/softer work times + fear of off gassing on elements...
Had no problems fitting the R/K/Z/G I have used for years, but I build color from Iris gold 218 and that's soft, and my reds are trans, like 139 + lipstick + cherry + used some G-Ferrari but not that much.
All seem to fit both- but have not noticed great work time/softer difference between either-(+ both seem close with 920 ap)
http://www.spectrumglass.com/GlassBlowing/Library/Studio%20Nugget%20Annealing%20Guide.pdf
and
http://www.spectrumglass.com/GlassBlowing/Library/Premium%20Nugget%20Annealing%20Guide.pdf
but I have seen big difference in kiln casing, with the 96 working much better in quicker melts so I can crash faster and not devit.
But will stick with Premium in fear of corrosion until sp cullet is available again.
Best from Fretret NOLA,
Andy

Andrew Brott
11-30-2012, 09:20 AM
opps on the annealing remark below...
Premium is 920f.
System 96 is 960f.
What I cant figure out + need to test more as i maybe wrong?...
If Premium is 40 degrees lower- why does it take longer to flow like yummy honey (sorry, but I love sweets) and go as viscus as the 96 does in the 1475 to 1550 range?
I'm out of any 890ap glass, but this might be fun testing for me...
But how the hell do you quantify a "softening point"?
Or should they add "bending point" as 50 or so more degrees than the AP when a cane bends off a brick?
Gotta run,
AB

Andrew Brott
11-30-2012, 09:23 AM
What I just typed below may explain the off gassing/corrosion of 96 vs Premium?...
AB

Dave Bross
11-30-2012, 09:59 AM
Bending point and softening point are very nearly the same thing.

The 40-50 degrees get added to that to prevent your work from bending.

The difference in time to soft may have a lot to do with radiant absorbtion. Think about the time differences in working a dark colored glass vs. a clear. Different ingredients in the clear can do that too.

Have you looked at those color/clear matches in a polariscope?

No future in getting known as the vitreous unibomber.

Andrew Brott
11-30-2012, 10:23 AM
Have not owned a polariscope in years, + if I need one I could just "accidentally" step the expensive pair of sunglasses my sidekick Mr. Watson has to get the 2 lenses, and look for pretty colors only a glass dog (or did i mean god?) can see.
I anneal safe and smart enough, know what to avoid, and if I'm not sure- I'll pull a cane/marver test- and look for bends.
+ If and when I'm changing up glass/colors I ask before I order- and look carefully at reds/yellows + I rarely use opaques.
That said one I have not looked at is extra dense 61(ish) whites-
Anyone had any failures with premium or 96?
AB

Pete VanderLaan
11-30-2012, 12:01 PM
Cane tests are notoriously the least reliable way to test a glass for compatibility. Really.

Sky Campbell
11-30-2012, 02:16 PM
Just to clarify premium nuggets are Not compatible with system 96.
This I learned the hard way.

Pete VanderLaan
11-30-2012, 03:43 PM
To be really clear, Spectrum's two clear products are not compatible with each other
Spectrum Premium is 97.5
System 96 nuggets are 94.1 and fits system 96 colors
Spruce Pine is 95.3
Gaffer is 95.3 for the most part
Kugler runs from 85.5 - 97. +-
I don't keep track of reichenbach.

Andrew Brott
11-30-2012, 04:06 PM
Cane tests are notoriously the least reliable way to test a glass for compatibility. Really.
Maybe for you glass alchemists, but for those of us who buy our chemistry from Helga Kugler via Olympic, they are a quick way to make sure you have not grabbed the wrong thing or mislabeled.
Was that a? or a?
+ if you use equal parts of clear + color on opposite sides (should be from a chip from a bar or hits/heats of frit to one side + maybe trimmed to equal/square up, quench the tip, and pull long and keep tight. cooled segments should be a minimum of 24" to 30" then up against a straight edge and look for bow. Done right, I find they work great. Really great...
AB

Robert Gary Parkes
11-30-2012, 04:10 PM
I have been using S96 regular nuggets for years,
I use both Kugler, and Riechenbach bars and frits, in many different colours,
I am even using very old Kugler, and Riechenbach colours, some that go back to the early 1932. I have had one, yes one, fit problem with an older bar of Kugler Opal Orange that cracked when I had put 24k gold into the piece, the other pieces without the gold were fine.

Pete VanderLaan
11-30-2012, 04:55 PM
Done right, I find they work great. Really great...
AB
Cane pulls only work if the glasses in question are of very similar composition. Soda Lime to soda Lime. Don't put a lead fluoride with a soda lime and expect a result that gives you no strain after annealling. It isn't going to be accurate.

Ring tests and Hagy seals are the definitive tests for mismatch.

Kenny Pieper
12-01-2012, 08:46 AM
Maybe for you glass alchemists, but for those of us who buy our chemistry from Helga Kugler via Olympic, they are a quick way to make sure you have not grabbed the wrong thing or mislabeled.
Was that a? or a?
+ if you use equal parts of clear + color on opposite sides (should be from a chip from a bar or hits/heats of frit to one side + maybe trimmed to equal/square up, quench the tip, and pull long and keep tight. cooled segments should be a minimum of 24" to 30" then up against a straight edge and look for bow. Done right, I find they work great. Really great...
AB

I don't put much stock in this test.
I make a soft but very dense black. If I use this test and it pulls out straight I know it will be way off in a blown and annealed piece.

Andrew Brott
12-01-2012, 10:00 PM
Y'all know how much eye of newt goes with manganese and cobalt oxides than I, so I can't pull your leg and say cane pulls aint witchcraft. They is...
But they work in a pinch and is fast for me, + time=$ and my cap issues are in the kiln with enamels, float glass, and my sanity...
Anyone else try kiln casting with 96 vs Premium?
Not mixing- just melting, the 96 seems to melt faster/softer, but have yet to test to make sure.
Maybe tomorrow...
+ Maybe the 96 has more (FYI- i edited this to correct said "less" in original post) flux burned off in it's melt and it's more corrosive than Premium.
+ Yes I'm dumb- and these are very different glasses, so there must be other reasons, but I'm not stupid- and maybe 96 being softer at 1500f has to do more with alchemy than witchcraft.
Ab

Pete VanderLaan
12-02-2012, 06:06 AM
It isn't alchemy. It's physics, a far more reliable methodology for consistent desired results. I am not into wishful thinking and don't teach it.

Eben Horton
12-02-2012, 08:38 AM
I just saw some gaffer copper blue that didn't fit with the regular nuggets. This is a nugget issue and not a gaffer issue.

Pete VanderLaan
12-02-2012, 09:08 AM
and you know what you saw was well annealed and not worked too long on the pipe? Was a ring test made to confirm a mismatch? Frank Wooley used to say to me ( and I to him) that the number of times poor annealing was misidentified as compatibility seemed endless.

I'm not saying it isn't the case, I'm saying the cases are usually not cut and dried. Process is important.

Andrew Brott
12-02-2012, 11:19 AM
Ah annealing... now that's the physics of common sense.

Don't have the time to spend on this, but thanks to my phone, my sketchbook has gone digital, so I share the attached picture in my James Joyce-sk manor-

Mr. Super Moderator Man Person- please remove if it's not cool to share, and or I should give credit as to where it's due.

The physics of annealing to me has as much to do with ambient air movement as it does to the time over temp. i.e see the pic.

Years back, I was training a factory and had the owner read the book this comes from- as such, he correctly questioned why I was cautiously cooling all we made.

Made me think- and we sped it up using air movement- as I remembered how quickly John Lewis and his folks were able to safely cool those big thick castings using ribbon burner gas lyres (sp?) ovens- as they have great air flow/movement in those ovens.

If we as glass blowers had air blowers and movement inside our annealing ovens much of what we make could be more efficiently and safely annealed.

Sorry for the Sunday AM ramble but SMMP is right on calling out witchcraft...

Best from Freret,

Andy

Pete VanderLaan
12-02-2012, 12:47 PM
Graham Stone's "The schedules" is an excellent reference book to own on annealing if you are lucky enough to find a copy.

Eben Horton
12-02-2012, 10:03 PM
and you know what you saw was well annealed and not worked too long on the pipe? Was a ring test made to confirm a mismatch? Frank Wooley used to say to me ( and I to him) that the number of times poor annealing was misidentified as compatibility seemed endless.

I'm not saying it isn't the case, I'm saying the cases are usually not cut and dried. Process is important.

Are you asking me? Because you know I am always right :)

Pete VanderLaan
12-03-2012, 05:06 AM
I just don't trust unsubstantiated events on the internet. They can do remarkable damage to people making things for glassblowers.

Copper doped glasses, which can make turquoise blues, are very strange. They become remarkably runny in certain temperature ranges. Viscosity mismatches can cause real problems in annealing when linear expansions seem to be in line.

I know that you don't care and that you just want to blow glass.

Pete VanderLaan
12-03-2012, 05:08 AM
I just don't trust unsubstantiated events on the internet. They can do remarkable damage to people making things for glassblowers.

Copper doped glasses, which can make turquoise blues, are very strange. They become remarkably runny in certain temperature ranges. Viscosity mismatches can cause real problems in annealing when linear expansions seem to be in line.

I know that you don't care and that you want to blow glass.

Eben Horton
12-04-2012, 06:14 AM
Well.. I don't have much more info other than it was frit in solid work and the only issue was with copper blue.

Pete VanderLaan
12-04-2012, 06:54 AM
Well, that's it then! It isn't blown glass and it isn't discussed in your video! Nowhere do you claim "I don't care I just want to shape glass"

It probably wouldn't have gone viral if it said "I don't care I just want to anneal glass" either.

Eben Horton
12-04-2012, 12:20 PM
definitely not.. :)

Hugh Jenkins
12-07-2012, 12:32 PM
Pete, I thought I had asked this already, but can't find it so I guess I missed the mail or something.

Anyway, my question was, at what level of copper loading is it necessary to have the lead in the base glass? I have done some quite intense copper blue in SP and other batch formulas with no lead. Possibly they would not have been overlay density but still deep enough for a first gather to do the job similar to an inch of G23. You can't put the commercial copper blues in the same oven with most of the opals without the copper either flowing or the opals not being hot enough.

What is the top end on a no lead copper blue assuming some LEC adjustment?

Pete VanderLaan
12-07-2012, 01:50 PM
I do not know the limit Hugh. In general, lead allows one to "pack " more metallic oxides into a glass without it not dissolving. In general, I find 2% to be at the top but copper is strange. It turns a glass into a runny mess in a very tight temperature range. Further, normally if copper is added to my leaded glasses, it is more moss green and not blue. I do think Barium will enhance a copper blue and will allow additional packing. It's not a color group I have spent a lot of time on. Hot colors like that really go in the tropics though. Lead is worth avoiding unless you really have to have it.