PDA

View Full Version : Propane again


Cecil McKenzie
09-22-2011, 09:24 PM
My propane supplier just offered me propane at $1.84 per gallon for up to 5000 gallons through the winter no money down pay within 10 days of delivery. With the price of oil going down I am wondering if I should take the offer.

Any insight into what propane prices are going to do or what arrangements others have made would we appreciated. Thanks. Cecil

Pete VanderLaan
09-23-2011, 04:15 AM
I think that is an excellent price and a nice offer. I am over $2.30 per gallon right now.

Tom Fuhrman
09-23-2011, 07:50 AM
commodity price yesterday at wellhead was about $1.56. That sounds like super price you got. Oil is coming down but refiners are closing up. so don't expect much relief.

Victor Chiarizia
09-23-2011, 08:31 AM
quoted $2.40 here in nc. vic

Sky Campbell
09-23-2011, 12:59 PM
Just paid $2.40 for 1000 gallons here in FL

David Patchen
09-24-2011, 01:16 AM
$3.50 in San Francisco! :(

Hugh Jenkins
09-24-2011, 03:30 AM
$4.65 in Honoka'a.

Pete VanderLaan
09-24-2011, 06:53 AM
$4.65 in Honoka'a.
***********

Hey Hey! That price has fallen a lot!

Cecil McKenzie
09-26-2011, 09:18 AM
Thanks for the input. I suppose I should be thankful but somehow I'm not elated to be paying 30 cents a gallon more than I did last year. With price of oil falling and other commodities coming down I was hoping for some relief. My sympathy to all those paying more. Cecil

Tom Bloyd
09-26-2011, 12:27 PM
$2.14 up in K.C. Cecil

Hugh Jenkins
09-26-2011, 04:44 PM
Veg oil is $1.50 when I can get it. The alternative energy movement is catching up with me. A bio fuel power plant is in the making and they are starting to hoard the oil. I knew it would happen but not this soon nor with this monopolistic intensity. With a no-charge service, they are getting most of the accounts that my supplier had.

If I go to a heated oil system there are the more hydrogenated oils that are still available. I think I could do that by passing a pipe through the wall of my furnace. The surface temp is way too low. I don't like thinking of where this is going, but I can't work hard enough to use propane at our cost.

I actually tried used motor oil, and though it worked fine in the burner, there was an ash in the exhaust I did not like the looks of.

Lowell Duell
09-27-2011, 11:42 AM
I just got a quote of $2.50 from amerigas for delivery next week and jumped on it because they told me two weeks ago it would be $3.15 not sure if this reflects oil price or just some marketing. If I pre-buy for winter delivery it would be $3.78. I'm in southern oregon, sounds like kansas is the place to live the only problem is I'm a Charger fan.

Pete VanderLaan
09-27-2011, 12:22 PM
The Chiefs suck and so does Arrowhead stadium. . Lance Allworth is a childhood hero.

Tom Bloyd
09-27-2011, 01:30 PM
Who's moderating this crap?

Dennis Hetland
09-27-2011, 02:05 PM
I pay $2.60 after my 25 cent a gallon discount.
I've got my home made WVO burner working and plan on building an oil fueled color furnace in November.

Pete VanderLaan
09-27-2011, 02:25 PM
Who's moderating this crap?
***********
Some former kid from San Diego back in the days of the American football League. Sid Gilman rules!

Tom Bloyd
09-27-2011, 02:46 PM
1970 was a great year. 1995 was a close second.

Pete VanderLaan
09-27-2011, 05:25 PM
Actually, I prefer the red sox...that is bad enough.

Tom Bloyd
09-27-2011, 06:22 PM
Better than the Royals, which are now owned by walmart.

Pete VanderLaan
09-28-2011, 07:16 AM
Is that why George Brett is out in front of the stadium in that blue smock greeting people as they come in?

John Van Koningsveld
09-28-2011, 07:05 PM
Hey, they offered to pay him with Preparation H. He couldn't refuse.

Tom Bloyd
09-28-2011, 08:03 PM
Brett hangs out with Rush limbaugh. That would give anyone a hemorroid.

Pete VanderLaan
09-29-2011, 07:48 AM
Baseball players and golfers have a competition to see which group is further to the right. Basketball players just have bling.

Victor Chiarizia
09-30-2011, 05:47 AM
propane and baseball? baseball players farts smell like propane i'd guess.

oh...just locked in at $2.059 for the season. i have rosey farts

Sandy Dukeshire
10-17-2011, 07:16 PM
i just got home and opened my propane bill.
Eastern Propane, out of Loudon NH, delivered..$5.46
if thats not bad enough:
the tank was not empty at fill time. in the spring i will be billed for the balance that was in the tank...yes..propane i ALREADY paid for.

this is for a camp, not a studio, but still..ouch

makes me want to move to Hawaii where propane is so much more affordable

Brian Gingras
10-17-2011, 07:42 PM
I must be missing something, but how can anyone be charged for what they already paid for?

Pete VanderLaan
10-18-2011, 04:10 AM
Do you own your tank? How big is the tank?Is it above ground or buried? If buried, buy it and get a new supplier. If above ground tell them to take it back and get a new supplier. Really. That is a total screw job and is not common. Even propane in fifteen pound bottles sells for about $3.50 a gallon.

Dave Bross
10-18-2011, 05:33 AM
We have similar problems here in Florida.

There is no price regulation and a few big players are buying up everything and gouging everyone they can.

Pete VanderLaan
10-18-2011, 05:52 AM
That may be but in New Hampshire, the going price is around $2.50-$3.00 per gallon. Sandy lives just across the state line in Massachusetts and apparently gets her gas from Laconia, NH. She should shop around. I'm paying about $2.20 filling a 1,000 gal tank about four times a year

Sandy Dukeshire
10-18-2011, 07:11 AM
Eastern Propane claims they need to collect at least for one fill per season to justify having their (above ground) tank on site. if you dont use a full tank, you are billed for it anyway. i call it being penalized for being conservative. Pete, remember this is for the NH camp so i shop local. For my MA studio i take my own tanks to the grain store to fill. Today that price is 2.61, which is still up a buck from 6 months ago.

so if im being billed for the balance of fuel i already paid for, that brings the cost per gallon to around $11 which is a TOTAL screw job..and not even a kiss.

i feel kinda bad for the driver who is going to have to haul off that full tank.

Pete VanderLaan
10-18-2011, 07:57 AM
my advice is to make a big stink. "It's just for a camp, Kids! puppies!. Write a few letters to the editor locally. There are a number of suppliers up here that really gouge. Make it really unattractive for them to keep reaming you out. Their argument is pure BS. Find out what the tank actually would cost you from other suppliers and offer to buy it at fair market, otherwise get it out of here.

Did you get home with the truck in time?

Sandy Dukeshire
10-18-2011, 07:42 PM
you can be sure i will let them know exactly why we wont be doing business with them any more. we're thinking we will just buy our own tank and haul it off to get filled when needed. i dont think i have enough negitive engery to write letters and go out kicking and screaming, but word of mouth will go a long way in our little neighborhood.

we made it home, unloaded, then returned the trailer with a whopping 11 minutes to spare. got back home exhausted to find that darn propane bill....grrrrrrr

Pete VanderLaan
10-19-2011, 05:22 AM
If you can haul it off, that sounds like a 100lb tank. Is that true? You can buy those at Home Depot for about $90.00. It just has to stand up in the truck when you move it.

You must have driven awfully fast.

Sandy and her sweetie Doug were just up here and I gave them a 1971 International Harvester PU with 65,000 miles on it. Doug is going to totally restore it and give it to his daughter. I'm really happy to have it out of the pasture where I parked it three years ago.

Sandy Dukeshire
10-19-2011, 07:16 AM
yes, the 100 lb tanks from Home Depot are what i use in the studio, and is what we will use again to replace the tank that Eastern Propane will have to take back. anything larger we cant lift when full.

and no driving over 60mph!! we supposed to have the trailer back at 5 per the contract, which was not going to happen, so i called from the road and they were super nice. as long as we returned the trailer before they closed at 7, no extra charge. we returned the trailer just before 7.

Laura is really pumped about the truck. its old school cool which is just her style. i'm looking forward to driving it to CO when its done next yearish.

Pete VanderLaan
10-19-2011, 07:31 AM
just remember it doesn't have power steering or power brakes. You could get them at a junk yard and put them in. The radio probably only plays "Abba"

If it was a 100 lb bottle, I can see them charging a lot on a delivery. That's not much fuel for a delivery. But if you only fill it once a year, it's not hard to haul it yourself.

Dave Bross
10-19-2011, 09:26 AM
International trucks!

I love those ol' corn binders. Had many of the larger ones over the years.

Getting back on topic.....

I'll probably have to go to hauling my own tanks. I debated doing a Georgia run at one hour away and way cheaper propane but that's just a break even proposition figuring time and effort and the DOT might have issues with too many propane bottles going down the road.

Even though the propane companies are screwing everyone on tank ownership, there's one thing to keep in mind. If anything goes wrong (think giant fireball) and it's the company tank then the liability is supposedly on them. Fireball with a tank you own and the liability is on you. Of course in todays climate the propane company will probably weasel out somehow and any scent of money anywhere will have the lawyers on you.

Lawrence Duckworth
10-20-2011, 07:29 AM
Buried a tank Wednesday and filled it yesterday.....$2.529 gal. Tax ,tag, title, dealer prep, underbody protection.....:etc

Pete VanderLaan
10-20-2011, 08:00 AM
You should get at least 18 vases to the gallon or have them take it back.

Lawrence Duckworth
12-23-2013, 12:28 PM
yippy skippy....2.39+ tax

Virgil Jones
12-23-2013, 02:32 PM
yippy skippy....2.39+ tax

As a manufacturer your state might not require tax. NC doesn't.

Kenny Pieper
12-23-2013, 03:18 PM
Amerigas is $1.63 here

Cecil McKenzie
12-25-2013, 11:52 AM
Just checked my bill. I contracted for $1.39 per gallon. Off the truck it is over $1.80 last week. Still wish I were using natural gas.

Hugh Jenkins
12-29-2013, 12:45 PM
Count your blessings. We are back up to $4.55. Gotta get my GH on oil.

It really does not make sense that gasoline went down to $3.80 and propane went up. Who is in control here anyway?

George Vidas
12-29-2013, 02:17 PM
I just read a really interesting book about petroleum products and the processes by which they reach us. It's called Oil: A Beginner's Guide. (http://www.amazon.com/Oil-Beginners-Guide-Guides/dp/1851685715)

The short answer is that refining crude oil produces a bunch of different products, the output ratios of which vary depending on the composition of the crude oil and on the refining process employed. In general, propane is a byproduct of refining gasoline. A given refinery could decide to produce more or less of either, depending on the market conditions.

Also, one of the two refineries in Hawaii just changed ownership.

Justin Zotynia
01-02-2014, 01:57 PM
was $1.45 first fill locked in to $1.85 for a year thats up in febuary
trying to see whats it going to be after that. DOnt want a big surprise after the truck leaves

Cecil McKenzie
01-27-2014, 12:51 PM
Propane here has gone to about $5.00 per gallon. Is this nationwide or am I caught in an arctic vortex? I only have 900 gallons left on my contract.

Kenny Pieper
01-27-2014, 02:32 PM
I live in a rural area in western N.C. There are a large number of crafts people here and the gas companies give most of us a pretty good deal. Last month I had my 2 -1000 gallon tanks filled for $1.63gal.

Pete VanderLaan
01-27-2014, 02:37 PM
Propane here has gone to about $5.00 per gallon. Is this nationwide or am I caught in an arctic vortex? I only have 900 gallons left on my contract.
************
It well could be a short lived regionally based shortage based on the cold snaps that haven't quit. I just paid 2.05 and was quite irritated. Isn't capitalism wonderful. They sense you're desperate so they gouge you.

Tom Fuhrman
01-27-2014, 04:07 PM
national news said there is a large shortage because of the severe weather. Governor of Tenn. declared a state of emergency because many households could not get any. People are being rationed for their supply of propane.
more stuff that it's impossible to control, just like the drop in the stock market this last week that was based on what happened in Turkey,Spain and Argentina. Isn't the "modern" world just great! Who's really in control? Glad I'm in the senior portion of my career. It will get tougher, not easier for all those that are still able to hang on.
When do start going back to coal and wood for our energy?
Natural gas , even though it's in abundance took a large hike in the market last week.

Pete VanderLaan
01-27-2014, 04:33 PM
"you are the cow and you will be milked"

Tom Fuhrman
01-27-2014, 05:00 PM
tired of having to bend over all the time. will it ever stop. this cow has gone dry

Victor Chiarizia
01-27-2014, 07:55 PM
mine went up to ~$2.25/ gallon up from 1.75 last year. even wholesale when i bought was over 1.65/ gallon. v

Cecil McKenzie
01-27-2014, 08:48 PM
Went to propane company to see if price was going to stay high. They said

some companies had gone to $5.00 but they had gone only to $4.29. When I

called to order some of my contract gas delivered it had gone down to $3.69.

I think Pete was right in it being a spike. I can't stay in business even at $3.69.

Dave Hilty
01-27-2014, 09:44 PM
My buddy down the road called for a tank fill and was told that due to the shortage they can't give him more than half a tank as they are rationing.

Pete VanderLaan
01-28-2014, 05:52 AM
The part I would be disturbed about goes back to Katrina. When that particular hurricane hit, prices for gasoline went up to $3.75 from about $2.70. After the crisis passed, fuel companies noticed that no one complained. Prices stayed high even though the shortage stopped They remain high to this day plus or minus 40 cents. . Take note that this happened with gold based color rod as well. Gold spiked, the price of color went up. Gold went down, the price has remained the same.

Look out. Electricity may start to look really good again soon.

Pete VanderLaan
01-28-2014, 06:02 AM
Went to propane company to see if price was going to stay high. They said

some companies had gone to $5.00 but they had gone only to $4.29. When I

called to order some of my contract gas delivered it had gone down to $3.69.

I think Pete was right in it being a spike. I can't stay in business even at $3.69.
**************
Do you recuperate?

Cecil McKenzie
01-28-2014, 09:01 AM
I do use a recuperator. Stainless tube inside another tube with a Thermjet burner. I had switched from a Maxon burner that cycled on and off. I did not seem to notice that much savings but I think it is because my furnace is old. The blower on the Eclipse burner is more powerful than the blower on the Maxon burner and was blowing the heat through any cracks in my furnace. I use about 25 gallons of propane per day for both glory hole and furnace. The furnace has about 130 lbs of glass capacity.

I'm sure I could be more economical but I rationalize that there are people paying $50/ hour to work in a rented space and they have to drive 2 hours to go do that so my situation doesn't seem so bad.

Thinking about trying a simple recuperator on a small gloryhole.

Pete VanderLaan
01-28-2014, 11:11 AM
well, it sound like you're going to be paying about fifty dollars more per day to work in your own studio and have everything where you want it. That's not so bad. It's better than fifty dollars per hour.

Dave Bross
01-28-2014, 12:41 PM
Up next...tumbling this in my head as we speak...

The wire glory to go with the wire melter. I'm thinking something with the coils in a small vertical tube with a small pot in the middle. That would fasten to the bottom rear of the actual glory chamber. Gets around trying to hang elements overhead and "shock value." from being near the wires. You would have to be patient, as it won't get screaming hot.

Alright, grab your whack-a-mole sledgehammers and have at it. What's missing concept-wise?

Mitcheal Veenstra
01-28-2014, 01:22 PM
My main thoughts Dave would be that as your glory typically runs hotter than your furnace, it's really pushing the upper limits of the wire, I don't imagine they would survive long, especially in a vertical tube, the top end would have to be hotter than the lower end and that's where your failure would likely be.

neat idea though..

I know that Mark Lauckner was working on a star bar glory once I think, anyone know if he ever got anywhere with it? I don't really have any good links on electric glorys...

Pete VanderLaan
01-28-2014, 02:53 PM
Up next...tumbling this in my head as we speak...

The wire glory to go with the wire melter. I'm thinking something with the coils in a small vertical tube with a small pot in the middle. That would fasten to the bottom rear of the actual glory chamber. Gets around trying to hang elements overhead and "shock value." from being near the wires. You would have to be patient, as it won't get screaming hot.

Alright, grab your whack-a-mole sledgehammers and have at it. What's missing concept-wise?
*******
Wait... the angel of death has his robe at the dry cleaners...

Dave Bross
01-28-2014, 05:17 PM
Mitch,

Mark did get the starbar glory running and last I talked to him (quite a while ago) he was using it exclusively. One of his favorite features was the quiet. I think he had the equivalent of a muffle wall in front of the bars to keep you from contacting the starbars.

Love the angel of death comment.

Also reminds me that Mark always built all his stuff with no contact between the hot glory or furnace refractory and the starbars. He did it as an economy measure because he was able to measure quite a bit of voltage being lost to the refractories if the bars rested on them.
It now occurs to me that that's a good safety measure too.

Eben Horton
01-28-2014, 06:00 PM
Have worked out of an all electric glory hole. It never got turned down. Can't say I liked it... No flame to use as a hot spot. It was hot though.

Richard Huntrods
01-28-2014, 09:01 PM
Mark put a surface mix torch (his own build) inside the GH to provide spot heat and reduction as needed. Last time I asked he said it worked very well.

Ron Schuster
01-31-2014, 07:05 PM
Indiana is $4.39. They say it's because of a large corn crop that needed to be dried, a pipeline from Canada that is down for repair and the fact that someone in Washington OK'd the first time ever export of LP.

Pete VanderLaan
02-01-2014, 06:52 AM
I just filled 20lb bottles in NH which always cost more thaan the big tank and they were $2.60.

Maybe we've become a foreign country. We don't do dried corn.

Dave Hilty
02-01-2014, 09:42 AM
I just filled 20lb bottles in NH which always cost more thaan the big tank and they were $2.60.

Maybe we've become a foreign country. We don't do dried corn.

Per lb. I assume?

Tom Fuhrman
02-01-2014, 10:22 AM
natural gas commodity pricing has increased over 25% in the last month. Gasoline seems to be decreasing in our area. silver has gone down, may be a time to buy.

Dave Bross
02-01-2014, 10:55 AM
I always wanted one of those bags of worn out silver coins the gold and silver dealers sell.

I could cackle madly while running the coins through my fingers...

and then make nitrate out of them.

Pete VanderLaan
02-01-2014, 01:46 PM
Per lb. I assume?
******
Gallon. four of them took 17.4 gallons.

Greg Vriethoff
02-01-2014, 06:16 PM
Makes sense. The record low temperatures has caused a shortage.

Glenn Randle
02-28-2014, 11:51 AM
Wonder when prices will fall again?

Pete VanderLaan
02-28-2014, 12:11 PM
well, remember when the price of gold went through the roof in the 1970's and the price of gold based color rod went with it and then the price of gold collapsed and the rod stayed the same?

You are the cow, you will be milked.

Tom Fuhrman
02-28-2014, 03:50 PM
I talked with a distant relative last week that runs a propane distributorship in Indiana for Suburban Propane and he said at one point this winter they only had what was in their trucks available to fill customer orders. They got some more in the nick of time. He also said that a lot of our propane was being exported because other countries were willing to pay more so they got the product. The farmers also used a lot of it this last fall for drying their harvest and that added to the shortage as well. This is what caused a bit of the shortage and the spike in prices. Don't expect the prices to get much better or come down. and natural gas has gone up about 15% since the end of Dec. Ain't it fun to be "milked".

Dave Bross
02-28-2014, 04:32 PM
The "all electric" shop is looking like a good idea.

Angela Reizian
02-28-2014, 04:50 PM
I have an all electric shop. The landlord just put thousands of solar panels on the roof. It should help lower the cost too.

Pete VanderLaan
02-28-2014, 05:31 PM
The "all electric" shop is looking like a good idea.
*************
I think that will depend entirely on where you are. These guys have a lot of ways to equalize rates and make them competitive ( for them, not you). Demand meters are one of the common methods wheras if you use more than a certain amount of power in any given moment, you get penalized at a maximum rate for the next billing cycle. That's common.

Tom Fuhrman
02-28-2014, 08:34 PM
watch electric take some big jumps, 80% of the electric is controled by 10-15 companies. Con-Edison, PGE, AEP, TVA, Duke, and a few others will ultimately control it all, just as the cell phone business has a handful of major players. be prepared to make changes quickly as markets change and energy costs vary.

Angela Reizian
03-01-2014, 07:05 AM
The "all electric" shop is looking like a good idea.

If you can find or create enough usage the state (MA) will fund the solar panels. It is a tax break for my landlord and a cost savings for the tenants. I'm in the same building as another heavy electric user-planet fitness. Between the two of us we will consume 75% of the electricity produced. The agreement states that they cannot raise the rate for seven years.

Pete VanderLaan
03-01-2014, 07:11 AM
I would think for the truly all electric shop, you would need a football fields worth of panels.
Somehow "creating the usage" seems counter productive. The BTU's are still warming up the joint.

Dave Bross
03-01-2014, 07:15 AM
De-evolution...we'll all be burning wood or coal soon. Back to yellow air...think China or Los Angeles.

There is a lot of work going on around wood/whatever is flammable gassifiers, which is how a lot of the the big glass factories got their BTUs late 19th early 20th century. Seems digital controls are making them quite efficient.

Solar is a bit tricky in that it has high initial investment and the panels wear out at the 8-10 year point, batteries at 4-6 years. Electric rates are still cheap enough to beat that but I'm sure the big players are working on fixing that ...to their benefit.

Greed = Green? nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

Greg Vriethoff
03-01-2014, 03:46 PM
Oh man, LA is not as bad as it used to be. Not even close to some of what we're seeing from China.

Pete VanderLaan
03-01-2014, 04:02 PM
LA is like fresh air. You really can't imagine Beijing or Shanghai.

Angela Reizian
03-01-2014, 07:44 PM
The roof of the building is a block long and half a block wide. I created more electric usage by having all my equipment electric, not just the furnace, everything. The more you use the lower the rate goes. By combining the usage of all the tenants, we used enough to qualify for the solar panel program. Hey, I could always convert to propane 🙈🙉🙊

Pete VanderLaan
03-02-2014, 06:31 AM
That's a great thing Angela. How many KW is your furnace? Mine is 22.5KW so I'm curius.

Angela Reizian
03-02-2014, 09:01 AM
Furnace 15kw at 100% at idle 2kw, glory hole 11kw at 100%. My furnace is small and I make relatively small things. The building I rent in gets a bulk/industrial rate. Residential rates are much higher in my area. I'm curious to see the impact of the solar installation, it was just installed in Dec. I had eom demons installed on each one to capture usage. I keep them both running perpetually. I would be curious to know if anyone else has all electric? I ran propane to my backup system generator. Keeps things hot if the power goes out. I had them run it to the building I case I want to switch in the future. I don't think I will switch to propane right now.

Pete VanderLaan
03-02-2014, 09:26 AM
And what size pot and how much glass does 15KW get you? Is it a cullet melt or SP87? How often do you charge?

Angela Reizian
03-02-2014, 11:57 AM
175 lbs Spectrum Nuggets add them once a week. How about you?

Pete VanderLaan
03-02-2014, 04:46 PM
So, a 22 inch pot?

Mine is capable of taking a 435 lb pot 28 inch dia but it has three 14.5 inch pots holding 75 lbs each, two are colors. It's all my own formulations. The pots come out the front. Steve built it for me as a present and it is the only one like it he ever built. Loading is remarkably irregular as to scheduling. It costs about 1350.00 a month for all electricity including the woodshop and tank heaters for the horses which is deceptive and the gloryhole is propane using about 200.00 propane.

From a safety point alone, I vastly prefer the moly. When I went to China last time, I just turned it down to 1300F and walked out the door. I would not do that with gas. It has not been off in two years and will shut down in May to change the pots. With minimal shutdowns and front pot removal, I've never replaced either the crown or any elements in five years. I do have to cut and trim the cables and I replaced four straps just yesterday. They do need maintenance. I am building a small gas furance for colors since electric is a drag when coloring glass. I sold both of the gas units I built for the classes, one went with the trailer so that's all over. I need a little gas unit for two 11 inch pots holding forty lbs each. It's very cool in the summer and we roll the glory hole out on the slab in winter to heat the joint. We don't have any kind of production at all. We make things and sometimes we just cut wood. No more production or shows. It's quite nice. You're welcome to take a day trip and see the dog and pony show if you like. Eben seemed to like it.

Mark Rosenbaum
07-10-2014, 01:42 PM
How is this solar set-up working now after 4 or 5 months? I am looking in to solar panels, but the ROI doesn't seem so great. It seems like I would need a ton of panels to produce the amount of electrical energy needed for my furnace and lehrs. The state will give me a 30% rebate, but that would still leave a big nut each month to pay off the panels. I am using 12000 kWh or so per month. My rate is about $1.10/kWh. I am running a 400 lb moly and 3 lehrs/ day in the back 1/2 as well as air and power for the front 1/2 of a 6,000 sq ft building.

Jordan Kube
07-10-2014, 04:04 PM
I think you may have misplaced a decimal point.

Pete VanderLaan
07-10-2014, 05:08 PM
probably true. My KWH is about 7.6 cents per KWH. The other garbage is hard to intuit.

Mark Rosenbaum
07-10-2014, 05:31 PM
I think you may have misplaced a decimal point.

oops, yup $0.11 /kWh.....

Hugh Jenkins
07-11-2014, 02:11 AM
The return for any investment, recuperation, solar, gas vs electric or alternate fuel, are all determined by location and specific energy costs. There is not general rule. Where I live all sources are expensive and only by doing everything I can, do I stay ahead.

I now pay more for recycled veg oil than most of you do for propane. If I could get propane at $1.85, I would jump at it, but still, why waste energy costs by not recuperating when it recovers 40% or more?

I love being able to make what I want when and even if I want. My energy costs are now less than when I started in 2001 on the Big Island. It has taken a lot of investment and attention, but I have no regrets. I still need to work out converting my glory holes to veg oil, but seeing Christian Thornton's progress, I am more optimistic.

Where will you be in 13 years? Is it worth making changes now?

Eben Horton
07-11-2014, 07:19 AM
I just paid to have natural gas brought down my street and have been running for 3 weeks on it. No more propane deliveries !!!!

I'm seeing a huge difference between natural gas and propane as far as glass quality. It appears to burn a lot cleaner or something. My glass likes it.

Greg Vriethoff
07-11-2014, 01:41 PM
in my experience, there is not any difference between the atmosphere conditions between natural gas and propane. (http://talk.craftweb.com/showpost.php?p=118373&postcount=7)

I'm seeing a huge difference between natural gas and propane as far as glass quality. It appears to burn a lot cleaner or something. My glass likes it.

'Splain, please. ;)

Pete VanderLaan
07-11-2014, 02:06 PM
The BTU's have been getting taken out of natural gas since the late 1960's, so much so that the suppliers were forced by the government to sell fuel by the therm instead of by the cubic foot as they had done for a long time. I don't know the original number but it seems to me that Nat Gas originally had about 2400BTU's per cu ft and that has fallen to around 1000BTU's, thus the therm price.

When I moved back here, I did notice a lot of snot in the propane compared to what I had seen in New Mexico with nat gas. I still see that snot. I don't know more than that but I think Eben is probably correct. Butane is removed, propane is removed, I believe Hexane is removed. It's mostly methane now with a touch of Captan to charm the ladies.

Eben Horton
07-11-2014, 07:03 PM
'Splain, please. ;)

well.. my furnace has a thermjet that had an orifice that was for natural gas and i was using it with propane for a few years... so i am realizing now that that was a bad idea. i was having cord issues and the moment i switched to nat gas, the problem went away...

Greg Vriethoff
07-11-2014, 07:59 PM
Thanks for the info guys. That's helpful.

Eben Horton
07-12-2014, 01:02 PM
'Splain, please. ;)
I think that when I said there isn't much difference between nat gas and propane, I was talking about glory holes.

And since I have made the switch, I still agree with that. My glory hole is acting just the same as with propane, although I have to push a bit more volume of gas through the burner to match the temps I could achieve with propane.

George Vidas
07-15-2014, 01:57 AM
Propane is ~2400 BTU per cubic foot
Natural gas is ~1000 BTU per cubic foot

Stoichiometric (neutral) combustion of propane requires ~24 parts air : 1 part gas by volume at sea level.

Neutral combustion of natural gas requires ~10 parts air : 1 part gas by volume.

To see 100k BTU, you'll be burning ~42 cubic feet of propane, requiring ~1000 cubic feet of air for neutral combustion.

To see the same heat output in natural gas, you'll burn ~100 cubic feet of gas, requiring ~1000 cubic feet of air.

Eben Horton
07-15-2014, 06:02 AM
I totally agree with that. My glory hole's air setting has barely changed, but obviously I have to push more gas through the burner than before.

Pete VanderLaan
07-15-2014, 06:28 AM
So I had to go back and change the BTU content for Nat gas in my earlier post. I didn't realize it had fallen so far. As they say, it's an extractive industry.