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Lawrence Duckworth
01-06-2012, 09:25 AM
I've got about 8- five gallon buckets of clean Spruce Pine glass scrap from practicing.
My question is can I recycle this stuff...... maybe add a bucket or so when charging?
Also, I have colored drops....could I make fritt out of this?

It looks like I'lll be making a lot more :):)

Scott Novota
01-06-2012, 09:28 AM
We call that clear cullet around these parts. Mix it in with some fresh batch. The number I always heard around the shops I was in that charge with batch was 20% cullet to 80% batch. No idea why that % seems to be the most parroted. I am sure someone else will pipe in.

I would not waste my time with the colored stuff but others might think differently. Quite a few people will recycle bar stock after wraps and cane pulls.

Lawrence Duckworth
01-06-2012, 09:37 AM
Thanx Scott...I'm charging now.

20%......

Charles Friedman
01-06-2012, 01:02 PM
I've got about
Also, I have colored drops....could I make fritt out of this?

It looks like I'll be making a lot more :):)


Ship it to Franklin!!!!!!!!!!

Jordan Kube
01-06-2012, 03:19 PM
Ship it to Franklin!!!!!!!!!!

That would be a very nice thing to do. Franklin probably has the worst glass imaginable to learn/work with.

Pete VanderLaan
01-06-2012, 06:39 PM
OK Franklin, cough up your ship to address.

Franklin Sankar
01-06-2012, 07:33 PM
Thanks so much for the kind thoughts. Charles caught me on camera like a pig in heaven rummaging through his scrap bin.
I have a shipper in Miami who lost some gold that Charles sent to me. Do they all loose stuff or is it this one only?
Any suggestions on how to get them to not loose things?
It is a very interesting learning experience to play with color scrap. I flameworked some of Charles stuff and pulled and stretched it and made some very interesting looking color parts.
I had not idea why he was using 3 layers of color but my experimenting with the scrap revealed some hidden effects. I would like to see the scrap from people on the board who use layers of different color to make their pieces. Can you post some close up pics of your multi layer color scrap. including a shot of the The inside. hope that it is ok to ask.
Thanks
Franklin

Tom Fuhrman
01-06-2012, 08:45 PM
send it in bigger quantities and containers. 50 gal drums don't getlost as easily as small USPS boxes. They haven't lost any of your big shipments yet. Smaller boxes and cartons are a pain for them to keep track of.

Charles Friedman
01-07-2012, 01:25 AM
http://talk.craftweb.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3421&stc=1&d=1325921032

I tip over my cut-off bucket and Franklin eyes where jumping out of his head.

I saw "Glass India" so many, many years ago and I have had such a great
acid flash-back, seeing this in front of me. I thought I should share.

We sent off a bunch of colors from friends, but, it was lost to the mail service
__________________

Pete VanderLaan
01-07-2012, 05:23 AM
It must be a staged Photograph. Franklin's fingers aren't dripping red.

Pete VanderLaan
01-07-2012, 05:53 AM
Thanks so much for the kind thoughts. Charles caught me on camera like a pig in heaven rummaging through his scrap bin.
I have a shipper in Miami who lost some gold that Charles sent to me. Do they all loose stuff or is it this one only?
Any suggestions on how to get them to not loose things?
It is a very interesting learning experience to play with color scrap. I flameworked some of Charles stuff and pulled and stretched it and made some very interesting looking color parts.
I had not idea why he was using 3 layers of color but my experimenting with the scrap revealed some hidden effects. I would like to see the scrap from people on the board who use layers of different color to make their pieces. Can you post some close up pics of your multi layer color scrap. including a shot of the The inside. hope that it is ok to ask.
Thanks
Franklin

***********
If you were getting a box from fed ex, where would it be addressed to Franklin.

Lawrence Duckworth
01-07-2012, 09:46 AM
Okay....i used 5 gallons of scrap (cullett:) ). The glass looks clean sep for some tiny bubbles and that should clear up in a few hrs....right?

I turned the temp up 20f cuz the stuff seems to act stiffer quicker, maybe its just me.

Thanx again,....I had no idea I was making the stuff (cullett) that sp won't sell me. :)

Eben Horton
01-07-2012, 10:16 AM
if you just making clear practice pieces, you can melt 100% clear cullet for a couple charge cycles.. moils, wet bucket.. melt it all... that is if your not using color and concerned about compatability

Pete VanderLaan
01-07-2012, 12:07 PM
Okay....i used 5 gallons of scrap (cullett:) ). The glass looks clean sep for some tiny bubbles and that should clear up in a few hrs....right?

I turned the temp up 20f cuz the stuff seems to act stiffer quicker, maybe its just me.

Thanx again,....I had no idea I was making the stuff (cullett) that sp won't sell me. :)
*************
You aren't making the same stuff. Boutique cullets are only melted once and then sold to you after being in the furnace for a few hours. Your cullet has been in there a lot longer. It has lost some sodium due to ionization. It seems stiffer for a reason. It is. If it gets dirty, it can be a lot harder to fine out.

Dennis Hetland
01-07-2012, 12:40 PM
I'll give you all the sp cullet you want if you pay shipping Franklin.

I've ben melting sp scrap for almost two years. I've had very few problems. I blow every other day. I leave the furnace at 2100F 24/7. If I finish charging by early the day before I don't have problems with bubbles.
I've been throwing pieces of glass that have a small amount of color in them and still get clear glass. I don't put anything that has blue, black or green in.
I get so many solid color scrap pieces that I'm filling coffee cups in the gh. I have an entire 5 gallon bucket of white and pounds of other colors.

Pete VanderLaan
01-07-2012, 02:15 PM
the whole problem for Franklin is the cost of the shipping.

Dennis Hetland
01-07-2012, 02:55 PM
That's what I thought, but I wanted I'd at least offer it.

If someone in Oregon wants some I could hook them up. I get more than I need.

Franklin Sankar
01-07-2012, 06:04 PM
Pete, Just in case some one can perform a miracle I put the shipping address here but edited it out a while ago because I was sharing it with a company and I did not want to expose them on the Internet.
Anyone can pm me or get me at..fsankar@yahoo.com
I don't quite understand what USPS offers but previous posts here suggests that they are the cheapest and seem to be reliable. Is that still true? The flat rate box is unbelievable. If it don't get lost.
I think for .70cts more you can get usps to put tracking on the pkg. Can someone pls call their local PO and ask them for me if this is true.
The lost packages had no tracking so maybe this is still feasible.
Thanks to you all for the kind words and offer to help.

Dennis I will email/pm you. Thanks for your kind offer. After glassybaby did not answer me I thought it was not a polite thing to ask. I thought about asking Chuhilly also but.....nahh

Laurence sorry for hijacking your thread but it was for a good cause.
To bring it back on track I am adding a pic of some cane I made with Charles gold. The color is just great but it faded at times, good for practicing flameworking and playing. Something more for you to do with your scrap???.
Franklin

Lawrence Duckworth
01-07-2012, 07:42 PM
Not a problem Franklin. I hope things get worked out for you.
The colored glass drops in a gh and coffee cups sound too cool......

Sandy Dukeshire
01-08-2012, 04:05 PM
Something more for you to do with your scrap???.
Franklin

cast into bars then cut it up and make cast tiles to use as rollups

Lawrence Duckworth
01-08-2012, 08:07 PM
This process looks like it has a ton of potential.
What makes this even more interesting to me Sandy is the mishap I had with the annealer the other day. The balloon shapes I had in the annealer all slumped, and I suspect its the way I shelved them and the shelf material and arrangement (fiber/over stretched metal)

by the way....I got an email from a guy the other day saying I should pre-heat the cullet before loading...the popping that I heard was the glass and could actually take out an element.

Jordan Kube
01-08-2012, 08:35 PM
the popping that I heard was the glass and could actually take out an element.

But probably not.

David Hopman
01-08-2012, 08:51 PM
I lost a Starbar to a popping pellet. It landed on it, stuck, and ate through.

Jordan Kube
01-08-2012, 09:37 PM
He's got molys.

Pete VanderLaan
01-09-2012, 06:08 AM
I have yet to see one hit and break a moly element and they are totally resistant to glass attack which is not true of starbars ( Silicon carbide). This is actually the first time I have heard of a starbar failing from cullet sticking although it has been theorized about for a long time.

Pete VanderLaan
01-09-2012, 06:13 AM
This process looks like it has a ton of potential.
What makes this even more interesting to me Sandy is the mishap I had with the annealer the other day. The balloon shapes I had in the annealer all slumped, and I suspect its the way I shelved them and the shelf material and arrangement (fiber/over stretched metal)

by the way....I got an email from a guy the other day saying I should pre-heat the cullet before loading...the popping that I heard was the glass and could actually take out an element.
********************
Annealing is a range . The thinner your work, the closer to the lower end of the range you want to work. For SP87, that's about 890F. I work thick and always ran at 935F. You also have to account for heat stratifying in the lehr.

If you are worried about your elements getting hit by cullet, you can preheat the cullet to about 700F and then load it which in my view would be a major pain BUT it would be a lot easier on the pot.

Lawrence Duckworth
01-09-2012, 06:43 AM
Thanx Pete. I did lower the temp to 910 without having anymore problems.
I'm welding up a hanger fixture now sozz to get them up off the fiber and see if I can put an end to the scaring. I'm going to replace the fiber on the floor of the annealer with sand and try bare stretched metal for the upper shelf

Pete VanderLaan
01-09-2012, 06:52 AM
I would just put them on a piece of heavy wire mesh lawrence. It sounds like they are going in a trifle too hot. A cupcake pan that has no coating would work pretty well too I think.

There's a fine line between too hot and too cold. With things like ornaments, a little too cold is probably just fine. Wait a little longer one a few of them and see what you get. You could also try 890F.

Nick Labino used to take this stuff and throw it in the freezer and then in hot water. It it survived, it was good enough. The size of your little bit for the hanger starts to become significant here.

Make one totally in clear and look at it in a polarizing screen, which you should own. If you don't ,google Edmonds Scientific and get a pair of the plastic laminated polarizing filters. They'r cheap and they really work. Don't fall for the bullshit about using your cellphone as a polarity checker. Get the tools you need to do the job right.

Lawrence Ruskin
01-09-2012, 08:30 AM
I had an SiC element get nailed by cullet, bout 15-20 years ago

That's why I always heat it up.

When a hunk of element fall into your melt it makes a real pretty yellow.

well, not really that pretty...

Scott Novota
01-09-2012, 09:29 AM
Kind of a soot laced snot color.

Richard Huntrods
01-09-2012, 10:45 AM
Thanx Pete. I did lower the temp to 910 without having anymore problems.
I'm welding up a hanger fixture now sozz to get them up off the fiber and see if I can put an end to the scaring. I'm going to replace the fiber on the floor of the annealer with sand and try bare stretched metal for the upper shelf

Allan Gott sells kiln shelf liner that is excellent for this. I've been using it in my annealer for years now. It works.

http://www.northernheat.ca/kilnshelf.html

-R

David Patchen
01-09-2012, 12:57 PM
Discussion #72.

I load onto playground sand in large cookie sheets, but you can't load too hot or you'll pick up texture. Frax is another favorite, but I like staying away from that stuff. Talc is another good one but makes a mess and the dust is not healthy. I think some have loaded onto a dead cat trapped in the annealer overnight, but they are hard to source consistently and the bones can stick to work that's loaded too hot.

Charles Friedman
01-09-2012, 01:13 PM
I to, have had cold glass pop out of the crucible onto my star-bars like a magnetic and burn right thru.

If I charge cullet, I charge it hot.

Charles Friedman
01-09-2012, 01:23 PM
I use Zircon sand in the bottom of my annealer. no marks at all.

Richard Huntrods
01-09-2012, 01:26 PM
I think if I had and SiC furnace I'd only ever charge SP batch, unless for some reason there was no way at all to get it.

I read the convolutions people go through to get cullet to melt and fine out, and wonder, "why bother?".

-R

Scott Novota
01-09-2012, 01:38 PM
Some places have no trouble at all with it.

Lawrence Ruskin
01-09-2012, 02:46 PM
Cullet is hardly any trouble at all.I don't batch cause of the dust and I don't have very much dry storage. You can leave cullet out in the rain.

Dennis Hetland
01-09-2012, 03:06 PM
I think if I had and SiC furnace I'd only ever charge SP batch, unless for some reason there was no way at all to get it.

I read the convolutions people go through to get cullet to melt and fine out, and wonder, "why bother?".

-R
You would rather melt at higher temps and have 20% of the solid material vaporize into the air around you? Isn't your studio in your driveway?
Cullet is quick and easy. You leave it alone for a few hours and it's good to go.

Pete VanderLaan
01-09-2012, 03:23 PM
Anyone who has blown glass for any serious length of time can tell instantly if the glass they draw from a furnace is fresh batch glass or a remelt cullet. Fresh glass works better than cullet, period.To tell someone that they are backwards because they favor quality is just wrongheaded. I will continue to applaud the people who strive for quality on a daily basis. It's your primary material for god's sakes.

Dennis Hetland
01-09-2012, 04:44 PM
I apologize for being rude. My point is cullet is easy and enabling. I would not have a business without it. If it's not quite as good as batched glass I don't care. I don't perceive a difference in the glass I blow at Elements (where I get my cullet) and the glass in my wire melter. If I have problems it's because they had problems.
I'm still a student, like so many other people on this board whether they want to admit it or not. I have not separated my self from the "Drop vase floppy bowl crowd" yet. I plan to, but they only way I see myself getting the studio time to do that is by doing what I can with what I have and I have a lot of cullet.
I think I'm doing pretty well. I'm seeing at least some success. I opened my first gallery in October.
People think it's interesting that my glass is recycled.

Rosanna Gusler
01-09-2012, 09:08 PM
so bought cullet made to be made back into glass after being reheated is considered to be recycled ? not being snarky here just asking because i need to know. rosanna

David Patchen
01-09-2012, 09:41 PM
I love when I see American-made blown glass that is promoted as 'recycled'. It makes the fact that you're remelting your moils, experiments and failures into a virtue ;) Unless of course you're actually melting windshields and bottles of course, but then you're probably in Trinidad (and we know who you are), Mexico, India or another developing country, right?

I personally like that SP cullet makes the glass a tiny bit stiffer. At Public Glass (where I work) our tech mixes batch and cullet for our charges and stirs a lot. Seems to work out fine but have the occasional hairline cord. Hey, it's handmade!

Charles Friedman
01-09-2012, 09:48 PM
I have been melting SP since 1996 with sil/carb elements. Pryer to that 3 years with Louie cullet (free from Dale, that's an other story) Always charging it hot.
I used to use stainless boxes built into the annealer. Work/preheat cullet all day, then charge hot that night.


I found that I'm making an awful lot of clear waste glass from making goblets.
I save all that waste for when there is no more SP batch, which is starting to happen here in the NW, with Oly. Color Rod, not carrying it anymore.


SP is fabulous to work with and will be missed when it is gone(from here anyway)


I make things with my scrap. The trunk piece. hangs on the wall and can be shaken to rearranged. The pocket Beach is all made from scrape.

Charles Friedman
01-09-2012, 10:08 PM
so bought cullet made to be made back into glass after being reheated is considered to be recycled ? not being snarky here just asking because i need to know. rosanna

If the cullet that you purchased was made from widget making, then yes.
If the cullet that you purchased was made for remelting into a widget, then no.

I find it strange that someone is melting nuggets that have to be remelted to work, a waste of my energy and time.
I would rather shovel in more batch and have better glass that makes my work more enjoyable to work. I'm lazy, I work too hard with the nuggets or pillows.

Unless you have worked a lot with SP or similar batch, you'll never know.

Dennis Hetland
01-09-2012, 10:52 PM
so bought cullet made to be made back into glass after being reheated is considered to be recycled ? not being snarky here just asking because i need to know. rosanna

I don't consider that recycled glass. I use reclaimed cullet scrap from a studio that melts sp batch. What I don't take goes in the land fill. After it's been remelted and made into something, I consider it recycled.
They have a clear blow off bucket and they mix the cullet from that with batch. The stuff mixed with color they let me have.
I never use glass from my own blow off bucket.

Pete VanderLaan
01-10-2012, 05:56 AM
If the cullet that you purchased was made from widget making, then yes.
If the cullet that you purchased was made for remelting into a widget, then no.

I find it strange that someone is melting nuggets that have to be remelted to work, a waste of my energy and time.
I would rather shovel in more batch and have better glass that makes my work more enjoyable to work. I'm lazy, I work too hard with the nuggets or pillows.

Unless you have worked a lot with SP or similar batch, you'll never know.
**************
Charles High Temp in Portland has SP87 in stock and will ship it up . They will sell any amount, 50 lbs or a ton. I think they tack on a nickel plus the shipping which has never been much when we sell crucibles.
1-800-325-2492

Pete VanderLaan
01-10-2012, 06:16 AM
Boutique cullet is really different from cullet.

The stuff from Spectrum is melted most of the way but is still releasing gas from the melt. That's why it causes so much trouble in electric melters. No Flue and a lot of boron and sodium ionization. It eats everything. I believe it to be coupled with barium to brighten it which is catalytic in its reaction.

When you melt a glass and leave it in the pot, the pot is gradually dissolving, which is why your pot is eventually worn out. That dissolution goes into the molecular makeup of your glass. It has more alumina in it after the dissolution since the pot is 90% alumina. That in turn makes for a glass with a greater molecular weight and it sinks in the pot. Convection stirs it back up, and when you blow this mixed stuff it expands slightly differently and you get varying degrees of cording, or inhomogeneity in the goop . The fresh boutique cullets don't have this problem. They will develop it if you leave it in the furnace for any length of time. Most glass that winds up in your cullet bucket has been in the furnace for a while, so it has this problem to some degree.

Remelting simply lets you see the differences in the two. An experienced glass blower will notice the working time right away and the glass behaves more like soft butter. Some people like David want that extra stiffness. I used to like it when making stemware because the stem would set up. That's a personal preference. For most less experienced glass workers, the more working range you get the better.

Any of the cullets that contain lithium will be more prone to cording the second time through the system.

Clear cullet from buckets has iron from the moil. That does slightly discolor the clear. It's additive.

Remelting your cullet at a 15 % total additive is the ratio I tend to use. I usually remelt my clear cullet in my colors, not my clear. In any work, if you are adding color to the work, you don't need to worry about the clear showing green. You'll just never see it.

Recycled glass is bottles, sheet glass etc. It is made for less than .02 per lb. It shows it. It has a lot of calcium so it's runny and sets up really fast in a bottle mold. It's not the same animal It has a linear expansion around 83-85. It has no luster at all since it contains virtually no potassium, an expensive additive. Don't confuse recycle with Boutique. Boutique glass is just the dumbing down of the process as we continue to know less than we did the week prior. The people dumbing it down will tell you it can't be remelted until you hit 2450F. That's just not true. Eventually color will come out of squeeze tubes. I know of people who draw on their glass with sharpies, adding lip wraps. What's next?

Lawrence Duckworth
01-10-2012, 07:34 AM
I chopped up a bunch of 1/2 inch punties out of cold and hot rolled, I quit using the hot rolled because it left so much crap in the glass drop, the cold roll feels better too.


This is a new kind of HOT for me :)

Pete VanderLaan
01-10-2012, 08:26 AM
Hot rolled is rarely straight enough either. If you are talking punty rods, stainless would be a lot better.

Franklin Sankar
01-10-2012, 12:33 PM
What the Hell you talking about. Hot rolled, cold rolled, choped rods, 1/2 in punties????
Ah I get it, its a test. Ok here goes...
Hot rolled is where you roll a fused plate on a collar.

failed all the other Q.
Franklin

Richard Huntrods
01-10-2012, 01:06 PM
You would rather melt at higher temps and have 20% of the solid material vaporize into the air around you? Isn't your studio in your driveway?
Cullet is quick and easy. You leave it alone for a few hours and it's good to go.

I always thought cullet was a simple as can be. Dump in crucible. Heat to blowing temp (2100 in my case). Blow.

But thread after thread on this board says otherwise. Apparently the material is so "something" (full of fines, dirt, cigarette butts...) that it has to be washed, dried, sieved, heated, ... and even then it's still too often full of teeny-tiny bubbles that take forever to go away. Then there's all the reported damage to refractories and pots from certain formulations.

So I say again... why bother?

Now, if it's working for you, GREAT. Continue. Enjoy. But if it isn't working, why are you fighting something that should not need to be fought?

I melt SP batch at 2100 - my blowing temp. I then cook for as short a time as possible (hint from Pete: watch it to see when it's done) at 2250. Turns out that's 3 hours in my furnace. Then squeeze overnight at 1850 and blow the next day. Lovely glass.

Finally, as to that 20% loss. You are still paying for it, even if it wasn't lost in your furnace.

-R

Lawrence Duckworth
01-10-2012, 01:45 PM
What the Hell you talking about. Hot rolled, cold rolled, choped rods, 1/2 in punties????
Ah I get it, its a test. Ok here goes...
Hot rolled is where you roll a fused plate on a collar.

failed all the other Q.
Franklin.

Ooooo..... Settle down there big fella.

Hot rolled 1/2 inch round rod carbon steel used for puntie sticks and cut to length ("chopped" off in iron worker machine) make for crap sticks cuz the cheap ass steel leaves lots of carbon in the knock off bucket...:)

Franklin Sankar
01-10-2012, 06:42 PM
Thanks Lawrence, you wat to give me a heart attack, talking in riddles like that.
Franklin

Lawrence Duckworth
01-16-2012, 06:19 AM
Half sp batch half scrap this time, purdy clean stuff.

Cookie sheets and cupcake trays filled with fine cutting sand, along with cooler annealer temps seemed to work too to correct the slumping problem.

.....Of course this is stuff you folks already knew......

Pete VanderLaan
01-16-2012, 07:15 AM
The transition from student to teacher is imperceptible when realizing at a certain point that you are answering way more questions than you are asking, and that you are having serious trouble getting your questions answered by anyone, except about why we are so attracted to doing this stuff.

Muffin trays rock!

Cecil McKenzie
01-16-2012, 07:41 AM
A hazard of using sand is accidentally getting it in gloves. I know someone who used sand for his annealer floor and while putting a large piece away he accidentally dragged hot sand into the back of his gloves and couldn't get it out fast enough to avoid getting severely burned.

I originally used 1900 degree Insblock which deteriorated too easily and switched to castable block mix ( I think AP- Green ) which seems to work well. It does abrade some but nothing like the insulating board.

Patrick Casanova
01-16-2012, 08:04 AM
Talc powder... also known at ceramic supply stores as Flint powder or silica flower.

Rosanna Gusler
01-16-2012, 08:09 AM
flint is silica and silica is silica. talc is talc. you really do not want flint or silica because of silicosis issues. rosanna

Art Ciccotti
02-08-2012, 01:11 PM
It was recommended to save several bags of the clear to wet the inside of my new crucibles before dumping in raw batch. I actually just fill the new crucible with cullet on the first run.

Pete VanderLaan
02-08-2012, 01:37 PM
Just don't fill it before you turn it on. I do not know how that terrible piece of advice ever got started. It is the single worst thing you can do to a pot I can think of short of dropping it out a second story window.

Thomas Chapman
02-08-2012, 02:49 PM
That must be a residual method from oldtimer-style furnace builiding. People using the invested-pot construction method are advised to "load it up to bring it up" so the crucible warms in evenly.

Pete VanderLaan
02-08-2012, 03:46 PM
It isn't old timer at all. It got started around 1990 and it is a really bad idea. The last thing that it does is to make the pot come up evenly. Anything but that.