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Franklin Sankar
01-12-2012, 06:34 AM
S8 is good and flows nicely to encase pieces but how about adding a bit of Li to SP cullet . Would that make it flow better. Cant you make a better flowing glass? Yes the COE may vary a bit but you would not believe what they do to S8 and the colors inside it. So what does the jury have to say? I am not interested in the optic quality as yet only something cheap to practice with.
Franklin

Pete VanderLaan
01-12-2012, 06:46 AM
You can't add lithium to cullet without having giant cords. Cullet is really, cullet. Adding stuff to a homogeneous material rarely goes well.

Franklin Sankar
01-12-2012, 11:22 AM
Arggggggggg.
Ok :). I will think of something else. or WWDD.
Franklin

Dave Bross
01-12-2012, 12:15 PM
Tell you mostly the same thing.

Athough I did have some good results adding it + borax to window glass. That's the exception, not the rule.

SP is already almost 1% lithium and that is a LOT.

Pete VanderLaan
01-12-2012, 12:36 PM
more like .5 percent.

Franklin Sankar
01-12-2012, 12:56 PM
Ok now you forcing me to ask what in S8 makes it run so well?
There is also a glass called K glass. Anyone tried it?
I wonder when Paul was experimenting on the techniques, how he came up with S8? You all live in a world where you can get anything , how do you do it?
Franklin

Pete VanderLaan
01-12-2012, 02:56 PM
Paul did not invent any of this stuff. S-8 is a product Schott has made for ever. I picked up my first hockey pucks around 1980. I have never heard of K glass. We all tried everything at one time or another.

In my on going adventures with people wanting consulting for nothing I had a guy call today who uses S-8 and wanted to melt it himself since it has apparently gone over $30.00 lb. Sounds like supply and demand at work to me. Too many paperweight makers and not enough real customers at Schott. I suggested that he had no experience and he said he could buy a kiln. I said that I thought this to not be well thought out. Then he wanted me to do it because I am a guru. I passed and suggested that I didn't know anyone who had the expertise to make the stuff. I told him he could buy a jen-ken and melt cullet but that he was never going to melt a high barium glass in it. I told him I would certainly build him a furnace that could melt barium glasses for $25K and he seemed to lose interest.

Then I got this guy from Switzerland who wanted me to tell him how to recast the inside of an electroglass furnace. I sent him to Durk Valkema who I hope eventually forgives me.

Scott Novota
01-12-2012, 03:27 PM
In all honesty Pete I sent him to you because it was well outside my wheelhouse.

I hope you forgive me. I don't know anything about casting anything outside of the doors for my gloryhole.

He seemed to be in a serious bind and was wondering if it was do able based on the e-mail that he sent me. I just had no experience to base any kind of answer on and figured you might just say "yea give it a try" or "No, bad idea wait it out" which seemed to be what he was asking. It did not seem like he was asking "how do I do it" but more of "what do you think, go for it?".

Pete VanderLaan
01-12-2012, 04:03 PM
Well, I'll have my lawyer contact you....

Scott Novota
01-12-2012, 04:09 PM
blood from a stone...

Ted Trower
01-12-2012, 04:15 PM
Much of the decorative crystal such as the laser "engraved" paperweights or chandelier prisms from China is listed as K9 or K5 crystal.

From what I've seen the K9 is supposed to be 30% lead. I haven't been able to find any description of what the K5 stuff is.

Pete VanderLaan
01-12-2012, 04:42 PM
blood from a stone...
************
Pound of flesh, with juice.

Franklin Sankar
01-12-2012, 06:12 PM
Thanks Pete,and just to get the history correct. Before Paul started experimenting with S8, did the other paperweight makers use S8.
Franklin

Pete VanderLaan
01-12-2012, 06:27 PM
I don't really know Franklin. Schott came in to usage around 1979-1980. Jon Kuhn, Steve Weinberg, Bob Carlson, Mary Beth Bliss were all messing with it. It was really cheap. We would pay about $1.00 lb and pick it up in the scrap yard which was absolutely huge.Julie Von Schnelling would sell us pickup trucks full cheap until they put security camera's out there. Then the prices went up. Kuhn drove the F2 market up all by himself, depleting the surplus stock built up over 40 years in a very short time. Then Horst moved back to Germany, Weinberg started selling the stuff Horst sent over.I have no idea when Stankard started to use it. Tight paperweights were not all that common in the early glass movement. There were weight makers but largely art Nouveau from Jim Lundberg, Steven Correia, Orient and Flume, David Hopper's place. Those were all opaque irridized pieces. None used Schott.

David Patchen
01-12-2012, 08:45 PM
What's the bfd about S8?

Jon Myers
01-12-2012, 08:57 PM
What's the bfd about S8?
Very clear and liquidy

Pete VanderLaan
01-13-2012, 05:25 AM
High Barium glasses do that. Peiser used to make one which would actually splash if you set your pipe down too hard.

Franklin Sankar
01-13-2012, 06:14 AM
Thanks Pete I am so glad you are still around especially as an Elder. Not that you are old but you know what I mean.
I am tempted to say that S8 is the glass for beginners After trying for so long with other glasses I can say that S8 is guranteed to encase.
Using other glasses is the challenge and almost futile.
I tried and tried at Charles place and it just does not work like the magic on the videos. If there is any secret in the process it has to be the type of glass used. I learned that the hard way. Bottles dont cut it. Can you imagine David Patchen using bottles to make his work? That would be real Art.:)
Franklin

Victor Chiarizia
01-13-2012, 07:24 AM
"Thanks Pete I am so glad you are still around especially as an Elder.'

now thats precious

Travis Frink
01-13-2012, 07:35 AM
Is there any reason casting billets cant be used for encasing? The Gaffer site says they are very fluid at casting temps (compared to what? I don't know) and their 92 Coe seems to be closer to gaffer's 96 Coe blowing color than S8 and closer in number theory if you are using German colors. Yes there are other issues and i understand that there is more to glasses fitting than COE/LEC but.... Somebody out there has to have tried this.

Pete VanderLaan
01-13-2012, 08:00 AM
"Thanks Pete I am so glad you are still around especially as an Elder.'

now thats precious
***********
My patience is being sorely tried this week...

Randy Kaltenbach
01-13-2012, 08:22 AM
***********
My patience is being sorely tried this week...You have lots of patience for an elder! Bring out the BANNING STICK :D

Tom Fuhrman
01-13-2012, 09:03 AM
I don't really know Franklin. Schott came in to usage around 1979-1980. Jon Kuhn, Steve Weinberg, Bob Carlson, Mary Beth Bliss were all messing with it. It was really cheap. We would pay about $1.00 lb and pick it up in the scrap yard which was absolutely huge.Julie Von Schnelling would sell us pickup trucks full cheap until they put security camera's out there. Then the prices went up. Kuhn drove the F2 market up all by himself, depleting the surplus stock built up over 40 years in a very short time. Then Horst moved back to Germany, Weinberg started selling the stuff Horst sent over.I have no idea when Stankard started to use it. Tight paperweights were not all that common in the early glass movement. There were weight makers but largely art Nouveau from Jim Lundberg, Steven Correia, Orient and Flume, David Hopper's place. Those were all opaque irridized pieces. None used Schott.

Corrreia used Schott, not sure about the rest of those. I was there one time in the 80's and they were picking up small cylindrical pieces from the annealer, decorating, and then blowing them into perfume bottles. Cylinders were about 3" tall x 2" dia. Annealer had about 75 to 100 in it and 2 guys just worked them in the GH. Not sure what glass Hopper and Lundberg were using but they made quite a few lampworked paperweights. Ken Rosenfeld,worked at Orient & Flume during this time and made some and there were couple of guys that worked with LUndberg and Curtis doing lamp worked encasements in the early 80's. while they had Zephyr Glass.
other guys in the East were using Schott before Paul. and many others got into it about the same time. Rick Ayotte, Bob Banford and his dad,Charles Kaziun, and there were several down around the Vineland, NJ area where there were a lot of scientific workers. In the 30' & 40's there were some other companies making clear and colored rods that some of these early guys were possibly using. One company was out on Long Island and another I think was in NJ. There was also another colored rod company in France way back then. I still have a couple of theirs.

Franklin Sankar
01-13-2012, 09:05 AM
Oh dear what have I done now? An elder in Glass is a person valued for his wisdom who accordingly holds a particular position of responsibility in a Glass group. We can have more than one elders. Tom?
Travis the temperature of the fluid glass is important. If it melts the object you are trying to encase. That is not good.
Franklin

Pete VanderLaan
01-13-2012, 09:21 AM
I totally nominate Tom as the Elder of the month. He has better information than I have and he's older anyways. . It was Rick Ayotte who called me two days ago about the S-8.

Sandy Dukeshire
01-13-2012, 09:47 AM
An elder in Glass is a person valued for his wisdom who accordingly holds a particular position of responsibility in a Glass group.
Franklin

yep. straight outa wiki.

Pete VanderLaan
01-13-2012, 10:26 AM
Well, the aging process has distinctly accelerated in the last two days.

Lawrence Ruskin
01-13-2012, 11:36 AM
Whatzamatter you?

That fluoride thing?

Pete VanderLaan
01-13-2012, 12:18 PM
I have been asked to consult. I have said "Fluorine is really dangerous. Use ventilation and lots of it."

So far that is not happening. That's how consulting goes sometimes.

Tom Fuhrman
01-13-2012, 04:00 PM
I decline everything. I can only post here when the nurses are away from their station and I can sneak on to the system. Please don't mention this to anyone or they'll probably never bring any of my meals again. Henry is definitely the real eldest of us all. I nominate him. and he always has info and an opinion to accompany it.
I'm not an elder, just an old geezer with lots of memories that have little value in today's world.

Pete VanderLaan
01-13-2012, 04:47 PM
I like applesauce!

Pete Ridabock
01-13-2012, 05:34 PM
I melted some of this for Rick. S8 cullet. It was hard to fine out. Thousands of micro seeds. Real gooie at gather though cools fast. Can't wait to get some more spruce juice. No seeds and long working.

Pete VanderLaan
01-13-2012, 06:12 PM
The fining issue is a nightmare if it has ANY dust on it. The glass has utterly no use for it.

Guy Kass
01-14-2012, 02:45 PM
Franklin-

If you want to try some K-9 let me know. It is supposedly what all my awards are made out of. I have rejects that I can send to you if you want.

Send me your mailing address if you want some.

Guy

Franklin Sankar
01-14-2012, 05:02 PM
Wow, thanks, I may get someone to pick it up. I will email you.
Thanks
Franklin

David Schimmel
01-17-2012, 08:00 AM
Paul did not invent any of this stuff. S-8 is a product Schott has made for ever. I picked up my first hockey pucks around 1980. I have never heard of K glass. We all tried everything at one time or another. .

Paul Stankard came to Schott in 1978 or 1979 with a glass formula that he wanted Schott to melt for him. They did and it was called "PS5," a proprietary glass exclusive to Paul. Schott then took this formula and developed a different glass, "S5," which was sold to other paperweight artists, ie, Rick Ayotte, Gordon Smith, Johne Parsley, Victor Trabucco, Del Tarsitano, and others.

Both PS5 and S5 were found to flow too freely, so Schott developed a stiffer glass, "S8" several years later.

The prices of PS5, S5, and S8 have always been comparatively high, given the type of glass that it is. The reason for this is low demand. A melt sufficient for 2 - 3 years' demand may only be a paltry 10,000 pounds. I was the "steward" of S8 sales from 1999 to May 2011, partially as a Schott employee and partially as Schott's exclusive distributor. During this time, the cost of S8 nearly tripled.

David Schimmel
01-17-2012, 08:12 AM
K9 glass is the Chinese equivalent to Schott's borosilicate crown, N-BK7. K5 is the Chinese equivalent to Schott's dense crown, SK5.

Pete VanderLaan
01-17-2012, 08:15 AM
It strikes me David that as a primary product, it would be seriously expensive. Only as a secondary would it make it to the mainstream. I remember those small pucks being outside but never in great volume. The stuff I kept grabbing were the neodymium pucks as well as the bar stock, the F2 , the BK7 and the LF 5 and 7.. I am very surprised to hear that Schott entertained a melt as small as 10,000 lbs. You would know of course. Hows retirement?

David Schimmel
01-17-2012, 08:19 AM
To my knowledge, S5 was never sold as cullet. The buck-a-pound glass was mainly optical (clear) and ophthalmic (colored) cullet.

The price went up as a result of a conversation I had with my boss, whereby he assigned me responsibility for the art glass business around 1986. Prior to that time, Horst Köbernik had been selling truckloads of cullet to artists for $1 - 1.50 per pound. He considered artists to be nuisances and told the few "chosen ones" not to tell anyone where they got their glass, or they would be cut off.

When I took over that responsibility, I told everyone to say where they got their glass and raised the price to $5.00 per pound. As a result, most of the usable cullet was sold within two years, and Schott had to begin manufacturing glass for artistic use.

David Schimmel
01-17-2012, 08:24 AM
I understand Gaffer Glass was developed using Schott's F2 (45% PbO) as a basis. As to why it may not be used for encasing, I don't know but suspect that the viscosity of F2/Gaffer does not match well with the of the 96 CTE glasses, despite the closeness of CTE. Gaffer glass also does not have the cosmetic clarity of F2, or any optical glass for that matter.

David Schimmel
01-17-2012, 08:24 AM
Nearly everyone at least experimented with Schott, even the sage of Seattle.

Pete VanderLaan
01-17-2012, 09:58 AM
I bought so much dollar a pound from Horst! I made special trips across the country for it. Then I did it ( the sales!) with Ms Von Schnelling which I suspect you did not know at the time. I sure liked Julie. I am pretty sure those pucks were S-8. It became distinctly less fun once you got the reins. The back lot sure cleared out quickly. Some of that looked like it would kill you if you got near it. Those were the days!

I don't think gaffers casting glass is a 96 at all. It is nice stuff. While people talk about how much these glass costs have gone up, they don't take a look at the raw materials. Potash and lead have become profoundly expensive. Barium is way up,zinc is way up. But don't worry, inflation is totally under control...

David Schimmel
01-17-2012, 10:49 AM
Herr Köbernik considered the cullet to be junk; I saw a gold mine.

I didn't mean to imply that the F2/Gaffer glass is 96 CTE; that referred to the colored glasses in an earlier post. The CTE of F2 is 92, which should also be the case with Gaffer.

Pete VanderLaan
01-17-2012, 10:54 AM
I can believe that. I have always viewed 96 as being too high and 90 as being a bit too low for studio work when thinking durability. 92 is a nice spot.

Franklin Sankar
01-17-2012, 12:33 PM
David I am so glad you jumped in here. You posts are invaluable food for the starved. Thank you and please stay a bit more.

Would you say that because Paul wanted to find a more fluid glass proves that he could not make the existing furnace glass encase/work? That would make me feel better every time I fail to encase my flowers with FHC. I wonder were he got his formula from back in those times? Pete?

What kind of furnace glass did you have back then? SP???
Thinking about it maybe not so, because Pete was using tons of S8.
Tons Pete?..., you make big men cry just thinking about a truck load of S8. David you also made men cry but for a different reason. :) Pete what did you do with all that glass?
Why would a too fluid glass not work for Paul? That seem to be ideal?
David, can you tell what kind of glass is the cubes with the laser images inside? Is it equivalent to S8.?

last weekend, I picked up and melted in the Glory hole the only ones I had.
It melted like FHC. It was also stiffish like FHC. I asked Tom to try on his end and he got the same results. Maybe he can describe some more.
The heat up in the annealer could be too fast, it shattered. Or was it the image causing the shattering. Pic has a piece of FHC on the side for comparison. Next pic shows how It turned kind of nasty in the torch but was not very shockie when I pulled a piece of cane and tried some flameworking. It is not compatible but yet a red FHC flower was encased and it did not crack as yet. Looked at it through the polarising sheets and did not see much rainbows.
Franklin

Pete VanderLaan
01-17-2012, 12:43 PM
I said tons of Schott, not tons of S8. And it really was tons. When I moved to New Hampshire we put it all out in the woodlot field. I go out there when I need it and dig around and it's always still there. Put it in the tractor bucket and head for the barn.

Franklin Sankar
02-08-2012, 10:54 AM
On the CMOG demo, Paul Stankard said that he could use SP to encase. He said S8 was better but SP is possible. I am not sure if he meant the clarity or the viscousity.
Any idea how much more viscous is S8 Vs SP.
I dont know how to compare the figures to the real world.
Franklin

Dave Bross
02-08-2012, 12:14 PM
You can encase with anything but how hard is it going to be to execute it and what will it look like when it's done.

S8 = pretty easy, very pretty

SP = !@#$%^&*! (bad words!) and not nearly as pretty so why bother

SP is a great glass.....for it's intended use.

Zach Jorgenson
02-08-2012, 07:46 PM
I think this has been mentioned before... Cathy Richardson encases with SP or used to anyway. Her weights are beautifully encased. They looked darker than weights made with S8. SP is just not going to flow over components the same and may be a factor in the type of setups being constructed. Get some S8 while it is still available and try it out. In some ways we're lucky to have any choice at all.

Pete VanderLaan
02-09-2012, 05:45 AM
It wil remain available most likely but the raw material costs are getting really really bad.

Potassium carbonate for me has gone from .59 to over $2.30
Lead monosilicate has gone from .90 to $5.00 in one ton lots.
Univar just quoted me soda Ash at .75 lb. I got it elsewhere but they are a big supplier.

These are basic raw materials.

Of course the claim for the last eight years is that inflation is totally under control. They simply remove items from the index that make it go up.

Franklin Sankar
02-09-2012, 06:20 AM
Thanks for the replies. I was listening to Paul so pls forgive me.
Thanks for telling me how it looks Zach. I have only seen pics of Cathy's work and could not tell if it was S8 or SP.
I have no doubt that S8 works and it must be the best thing since Callaloo. I just happen to like how SP looks because... well if you were using bottles how would SP look to you?
I got some S8 thanks to my secret supplier but that is not to be used now.
I Was just trying to find a cheaper not so good looking but yet doable alternative for practice and experiments.
I hear (from Paul) that Bob is making a big batch of S8 soon.
Yes I am lucky, very lucky to have a choice and to be given the previlidge to know what I know about glass. Thanks to the board.
I cant help myself , I am not satisfied with how it looks and keep trying to make it look better with a Sow's ear. Maybe I should have a serious talk to myself.(when no one is looking).
Franklin

David Schimmel
02-09-2012, 08:27 AM
Franklin,
I don’t know how Paul Stankard came up with the composition for PS5, but he lives in South Jersey where there previously were many scientific and technical glass manufacturers. Presumably, the composition for PS5 came as a result of his with his relationship with them.

The glass used in the laser engraved cubes is K9.

Pete VanderLaan
02-09-2012, 09:07 AM
Also, while SP87 is a very nice blowing glass, it simply does not have the lustre or the refractive index of S8. If you put two pieces side by side and compared them, the difference would be immediately obvious. As the size of the piece grows, the issues become more glaring. Polishing a piece would make it more obvious still.

There is still no free lunch.

Franklin Sankar
02-09-2012, 07:14 PM
Thanks for the replies and David for identifying the k9 . I could not believe it was boro. So clear and niCe. I melted a piece on the torch and it was the first time I worked with boro. It was nice. So now I have a source for boro. Would it be Coe 33
Or is it 71? I got this on the net

http://yxoptical.com/e/cpzs15.html
It says 71. What a disapointment

Franklin

David Schimmel
02-10-2012, 07:53 AM
Franklin,
K9 is the Chinese equivalent to Schott's N-BK7. Both are borosilicate crown glasses with CTE of 71. Pyrex and its eqivalents exhibit much lower thermal expansion and constitute the 'boro' glasses that flameworkers use.

In other words, 'borosilicate' denotes a glass family, rather than a specific glass, in the same manner as soda lime, flint, crown, etc.

Franklin Sankar
02-10-2012, 08:40 AM
Thank you so much David. The study of glass is never ending. I love it.
Franklin

Pete VanderLaan
02-10-2012, 10:25 AM
Thanks for the replies and David for identifying the k9 . I could not believe it was boro. So clear and niCe. I melted a piece on the torch and it was the first time I worked with boro. It was nice. So now I have a source for boro. Would it be Coe 33
Or is it 71? I got this on the net

http://yxoptical.com/e/cpzs15.html
It says 71. What a disapointment

Franklin


**********
Have you or anyone else ever ordered the chinese stuff?

Franklin Sankar
02-10-2012, 02:28 PM
I bought it from the dollar store as a laser cube and I shared my simple trial earlier in this thread. That was the first time I used boro. But now I know ther are different types of boro. I always thought boro was stiff but this one was not so stiff.
Franklin