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View Full Version : fusing cane bundles in a kiln


Ben Solwitz
02-12-2012, 10:40 AM
Anyone tried it? I took a class with Harry Seaman and Mark Ditzler where we fused bundles of sheet glass slices and it worked ok, but I've never tried it with something round. I really don't like blowing bullseye. I don't have any of the blown work from the class with me but here's a plate of cane:

http://i.imgur.com/ddSAu.jpg

Marty Kremer
02-12-2012, 09:23 PM
There's no reason you can't wire bundles of cane like you did the strips of BE,
prop them in the kiln and tack fuse to pick up and blow.
Or pack them in a fiberlined pipe to full fuse and then blow.
Or do what you did and roll it up...

Ben Solwitz
02-12-2012, 10:36 PM
The bullseye strips fit together pretty closely, any idea if the larger air spaces in a cane bundle will cause problems? We did both tack and full fuses and the full fuses were nice because they took less work to do the pull in the hot shop.

Marty Kremer
02-13-2012, 08:10 AM
You'll need a substantial bubble squeeze- hold at 1150ish for an hour on the way up.

I'd think that if they were only tack fused when you picked them up on the pipe that you'd be able to marver any bubbles out as you heated.

Ben Solwitz
02-13-2012, 08:54 AM
Yeah it's just a lot more work than if I figured out a full fuse schedule/setup that would take care of it. What if I put the setup on a relatively thin metal plate and cover the top with kiln shelf? The idea being that the bottom will heat up and fuse first, and then the heat will work its way up.

Peter Bowles
02-13-2012, 09:28 AM
just go slow as Marty suggests

David Patchen
02-13-2012, 10:23 AM
I fuse bundles of cane often for use in murrine. Use nichrome wire to hold it all together tightly and pick up on slightly concave collar on a blowpipe so the air has someplace to go as you heat it. Start heating the end to fuse the tips, remove the wire and continue to melt/marver further and further back so the air gets driven to the back near the collar. Use a press to keep it from getting long on the marver and roll it on top as you marver to force the bubbles to the back. You can get it bubble-free except for the last inch or so where they accumulate. Transfer to another punty and cut off the bubbly part and you've got a nice solid bundle. Takes a few to get the hang of it.

Ben Solwitz
02-13-2012, 10:54 AM
Have you tried full fusing them in a kiln?

David Patchen
02-13-2012, 11:31 AM
Nope. Glory hole is faster :)

Ben Solwitz
02-13-2012, 11:40 AM
Yeah faster for an individual bundle, but more work. You could fuse a bunch at a time in the kiln if you got the schedule worked out.

Kenny Pieper
02-13-2012, 12:03 PM
I have been doing it a bit different than David.
I bundle them together w/ high temp wire then set in a pickup oven. When hot (1050f) make a post, let the post get very cold then take a drop on top of the post and pick up the bundle with this fresh glass. Heat until they stick a bit, cut off the wire and start heating through in a cold gloryhole. Before every heat quench the end to keep it cool and the air passages open. When it starts getting warm inside I place it on the marver and have my assistant push down on the bundle near the post end with something and sort of graw the air towards the open end, flip and repeat. We start with making a square and then hit the points into an octagon.Towards the end of the process we more or less round it out and pull.
Sam Stang told me that he was taught by Lino to do it this way and in my limited experience it works better for me that the pipe method.

David Patchen
02-13-2012, 12:23 PM
I have been doing it a bit different than David.
I bundle them together w/ high temp wire then set in a pickup oven. When hot (1050f) make a post, let the post get very cold then take a drop on top of the post and pick up the bundle with this fresh glass. Heat until they stick a bit, cut off the wire and start heating through in a cold gloryhole. Before every heat quench the end to keep it cool and the air passages open. When it starts getting warm inside I place it on the marver and have my assistant push down on the bundle near the post end with something and sort of graw the air towards the open end, flip and repeat. We start with making a square and then hit the points into an octagon.Towards the end of the process we more or less round it out and pull.
Sam Stang told me that he was taught by Lino to do it this way and in my limited experience it works better for me that the pipe method.

Interesting! In many ways it's the opposite process. I like the cold gloryhole idea. I'm going to give it a try.

Kenny Pieper
02-13-2012, 06:08 PM
Interesting! In many ways it's the opposite process. I like the cold gloryhole idea. I'm going to give it a try.

When I tried to do this in my begining, I came up with the idea of the way you do it David. In my mind it makes sence. I found that the collor on the pipe never stuck to just the outer cannes but would stick to the outer 2 or 3 sets of cannes and so the air was trapped in those sections. Thats when I called Sam Stang. This other way I get much less in the way of bubbles. But to tell the truth it does not seem to be a problem if there are some small bubbles running through. They melt out from the top down on the pastorale.

David Patchen
02-13-2012, 07:13 PM
When I tried to do this in my begining, I came up with the idea of the way you do it David. In my mind it makes sence. I found that the collor on the pipe never stuck to just the outer cannes but would stick to the outer 2 or 3 sets of cannes and so the air was trapped in those sections. Thats when I called Sam Stang. This other way I get much less in the way of bubbles. But to tell the truth it does not seem to be a problem if there are some small bubbles running through. They melt out from the top down on the pastorale.

Exactly. I find that if I heat really carefully, fusing the tip and them marvering/heating a little bit further back each time I really only end up with bubbles in the last 3/4" or so. If I then switch it to a punty and cut the section w/bubbles onto the floor I'm totally bubble free. I always hesitate to use finished murrine with little air channels but as you point out--they aren't a problem unless they're huge or disrupt the pattern. I'm going to try the Lino/Sam/Kenny approach next time.

Lawrence Duckworth
02-13-2012, 08:12 PM
you guys are killin me.

somebody know where the color forum 101 is?...powder, frit, powder, frit, powder, frit, powder, frit, powder, frit................

Pete VanderLaan
02-14-2012, 06:22 AM
When Dick Ritter was doing the Murrini of his family, he added ultra thin cane to fill in the dead air spaces so there was very little air in it. It did however take forever.

Wes Hunting
02-14-2012, 07:40 AM
I have always done it the way Kenny describes but have found that using a exact torch to spot heat the back end of the bundle speeds up the process.
When making round bundles I usually just marver it at a steep angle forcing the air out the front. When making squares, triangles, or other angular shapes I use the back of my jacks to push the air out.

Ben Solwitz
02-14-2012, 08:31 AM
I think there was a video of you making murrini at the Rakow Wes, VHS only though unfortunately. I didn't get a chance to watch it but maybe the next time I'm there.

Wes Hunting
02-14-2012, 09:35 AM
That video was shot at a workshop I did at Glass Axis, in Columbus I think in the early nineties. It really drags on but does cover all the basics of bundling cane for murrini. I think it's still for sale on the web, maybe through Lark Books?

Jeff Wright
02-14-2012, 04:38 PM
I have been doing it a bit different than David.
I bundle them together w/ high temp wire then set in a pickup oven. When hot (1050f) make a post, let the post get very cold then take a drop on top of the post and pick up the bundle with this fresh glass. Heat until they stick a bit, cut off the wire and start heating through in a cold gloryhole. Before every heat quench the end to keep it cool and the air passages open. When it starts getting warm inside I place it on the marver and have my assistant push down on the bundle near the post end with something and sort of graw the air towards the open end, flip and repeat. We start with making a square and then hit the points into an octagon.Towards the end of the process we more or less round it out and pull.
Sam Stang told me that he was taught by Lino to do it this way and in my limited experience it works better for me that the pipe method.

I do it the same way as Kenny describes. Works quite well. I pulled a lot of cane about 1/8" diameter. Bundled a bunch of this into interesting patterns and tied it up with a couple lengths of hi-temp wire. Bring up in small kiln and soak at annealing temps. When ready to use, bump the kiln up by 50-75 degrees F. Pick up on a post - well chilled and then heated up right before the pickup. If you are careful, you can then marver out most of the air pockets and still keep the cane pattern fairly intact.

Ben Solwitz
02-17-2012, 05:54 PM
What gauge nichrome wire do you guys use for bundling stuff? I have a pattern I'd like to keep square and I'm wondering if a thick gauge would help or if I should try to brace the corners with something.