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View Full Version : lead content in Kugler and Reichenbach


Pete Ridabock
02-29-2012, 08:08 AM
I have a customer who has purchased 12 of my tumblers. She is concerned about the lead content in the colors I use, and if there are any health issues. I use Kugler and Reichenbach. All transparents, numbers 5,6,12,13,19,21,24,26,28,40,41,45. I pick the color up on a collar with one gather of clear over it, so the color is exposed on the inside. Should I be laying the colored glass over a clear bubble so it is not exposed?

Tom Fuhrman
02-29-2012, 09:15 AM
There's still lots of drinking vessels produced that are made from high lead glasses, i.e. 24%. There have been some reports and research done on using wine in this type of vessel and what effects if any it may have on an individual. There was a presentation done at GAS on this many yeaRS AGO. Personally I think your customer should be more concerned about that 86 year old lady that lives down the street that is still driving. Chances are she'll get your customer before any lead does.

Matthew LaBarbera
02-29-2012, 09:51 AM
There was an article in the AMA about 15 years ago about this. There is no real problem. That said when I made drinking glasses I never had exposed color to the inside, just clear glass. It was one less thing to have to explain to a customer.

David Patchen
02-29-2012, 11:11 AM
Why not overlay and never worry about it again? I don't like the idea of drinking directly off any color.

Pete VanderLaan
02-29-2012, 12:46 PM
Tom Littleton can really go on about this subject. The Container industry has agreed to have no color of any type containing lead within 1/4 inch of the lip of a drinking vessel. That being said, do what David suggested and forget about it.

For those interested. my silver opal colors contain no lead. My dense black is an 11 percent lead. I only use it if I have to.

Eben Horton
02-29-2012, 01:59 PM
The biggest health issues are decanters where the user pours a bottle of booze in a piece containing leaded glass and the liquid has months or years to absorb any lead into the solution.

a drinking glass has zero health issues.

Just my humble opinion.

Cecil McKenzie
02-29-2012, 02:25 PM
I've had customers who were concerned about chrome or cadmium contamination from blown out color in a perfume bottle. Too much time on their hands. I use frit on the outside of tumblers so interior is just soda lime.

Scott Novota
02-29-2012, 02:27 PM
What until they start getting worried about lime(sic) disease...

Pete VanderLaan
02-29-2012, 04:38 PM
They should be worrying about Liver failure....

Allan Gott
02-29-2012, 09:50 PM
What until they start getting worried about lime(sic) disease...

.......or........the one we are stricken with.......soda-lime disease

Ray Laubs
03-01-2012, 04:24 AM
just dont, I mean DONT tell them about the arsenic.......

Pete VanderLaan
03-01-2012, 04:37 AM
Arsenic doesn't leach, neither does antimony. Barium probably does...

Jeff Thompson
03-01-2012, 12:44 PM
The biggest health issues are decanters where the user pours a bottle of booze in a piece containing leaded glass and the liquid has months or years to absorb any lead into the solution.


For the sake of discussion:
Martha Stewart suggests that if a hostess is too exhausted at the end of a dinner party to clean up there is one task that simply cannot be delayed: the remnants of wine in everyone's glasses (well, not MY glass!). The little bit of leftover red wine will etch the interior of the glass if left overnight, so she suggests diluting the wine with some water before heading off to bed.

If red wine is strong enough to etch the glass, does the etching process leech anything into the wine?

Tom Clifton
03-01-2012, 01:08 PM
Martha Stewart suggests...

I have really tried to stay out of this one... While wikipedia is hardly the end-all authorative source of information it does offer information and references for information cited so you can draw our own conclusions. I would trust those refrences more than Martha Stewart...

Wikipedia Article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_glass#cite_note-fda-14)

Brief blurb from the full article:

Leaded crystal wineglasses and decanters are generally not considered to pose a significant health risk, provided that these items are washed thoroughly before use, that beverages are not stored in these containers for more than a few hours, and provided that they are not used by children.[11][12]

It has been proposed that the historic association of gout with the upper classes in Europe and America was, in part, caused by their extensive use of lead crystal decanters to store fortified wines and whisky.[13] Lin et al. have statistical evidence linking gout to lead poisoning.[14]

Items made of lead glass may leach lead into the food and beverages contained.[15][16] In a study performed at North Carolina State University,[17] the amount of lead migration was measured for Port wine stored in lead crystal decanters. After two days, lead levels were 89 g/L (micrograms per liter). After four months, lead levels were between 2,000 and 5,000 g/L. White wine doubled its lead content within an hour of storage and tripled it within four hours. Some brandy stored in lead crystal for over five years had lead levels around 20,000 g/L.[18][19] To put this into perspective, the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency's lead standard for drinking water is 15 g/L = 0.15 parts per million.[20] Citrus juices and other acidic drinks leach lead from crystal as effectively as alcoholic beverages. When lead-glass beverage containers are used in the ordinary usual way they do not pose a health risk.[21][22] Under conditions of repeated use of the decanter, the lead leaching steeply decreases with increasing use. This finding is "consistent with ceramic chemistry theory, which predicts that leaching of Pb from crystal is self-limiting exponentially as a function of increasing distance from the crystal-liquid interface."[22] Lead leaching still occurs, but the quantity that leaches into a glass of wine or other beverage let stand for a few hours is much smaller than the quantity of lead consumed daily in ordinary diet. An ordinary diet contains about 70 g of lead per day.[21]


[15] Dixie Farley (Jan–February 1998). "Dangers of Lead Still Linger". FDA Consumer Magazine (U.S. Food and Drug Administration).
[16] Lead Crystalware and Your Health". It's Your Health. Health Canada.


My own personal outlook:

I have a cabinet full of very old and very beautiful Waterford crystal that I have used regularly for many years. Neither myself, my parents or family have suffered any obvious symptoms of lead poisoning (though we do tend to be a bit crazy around the diner table). We have stopped storing bandy in the decanters but do enjoy water and wine from the Waterford. I do not serve small children juice from the stemware - as much for the health aspect as they chance of breakage. Yes - I am injesting lead. My house is very old - the water service coming in is a lead pipe (well encrusted with calcium, I'm sure). My door and window frames likely have lead paint on them somewhere in the many coats of paint. I know about it, undersand the risks and choose to continue living in the house. Sort of like my stance on motorcycle helmet laws...

Jeff Thompson
03-01-2012, 01:46 PM
The only thing Martha is commenting on is how to avoid ruining your stemware.

Lawrence Ruskin
03-01-2012, 02:57 PM
If you really want to protect your stemware, and high quality ceramics keep them out of the dishwasher.

I used to work in a public gallery and you would have these old babes come in with old crystal fogged from the dishwasher and ask us if we could make it shiny again.

There was a guy that could do it with a glass lathe and polish the outside but it was expensive.

Michael Ahlefeldt-Laurvig
03-01-2012, 03:02 PM
Quote-
It has been proposed that the historic association of gout with the upper classes in Europe and America was, in part, caused by their extensive use of lead crystal decanters to store fortified wines and whisky.[13] Lin et al. have statistical evidence linking gout to lead poisoning.[14]



Ive heard that lead acetate was used as a sweetener in sour wines.


also from wiki:
Sweetener
Like other lead(II) salts, lead(II) acetate has a sweet taste, which has led to its use as a sugar substitute throughout history. The ancient Romans, who had few sweeteners besides honey, would boil must (grape juice) in lead pots to produce a reduced sugar syrup called defrutum, concentrated again into sapa. This syrup was used to sweeten wine and to sweeten and preserve fruit. It is possible that lead(II) acetate or other lead compounds leaching into the syrup might have caused lead poisoning in anyone consuming it.[2] Therefore, lead acetate is no longer used in the production of sweeteners in most of the world because of its recognized toxicity. Modern chemistry can easily detect it, which has all but stopped the illegal use that continued decades after legal use as a sweetener was terminated.
[edit]Resultant deaths
Pope Clement II died in October 1047. A toxicologic examination of his remains conducted in the mid-20th century confirmed centuries-old rumors that he had been poisoned with lead sugar.[3] It is not clear if he was assassinated.
In 1787 painter Albert Christoph Dies swallowed, by accident, approximately 0.75 ounces (21 g) of lead acetate. His recovery from this poison was slow and incomplete. He lived with illnesses until his death in 1822.[citation needed]
Although the use of lead(II) acetate as a sweetener was already illegal at that time, composer Ludwig van Beethoven may have died of lead poisoning caused by wines adulterated with lead acetate.[4][5]
Mary Seacole applied lead(II) acetate, among other remedies, against an epidemic of cholera in Panama.[6][7]
[edit]

Pete VanderLaan
03-01-2012, 03:04 PM
oxalic acid cleans it right up. Did I mention it too is toxic? Behold the meandering thread.

Patrick Casanova
03-01-2012, 03:24 PM
"Life is toxic... Good Health is just the slowest rate of death one can have." ... Steve Hagen

We do need to take health and safety precautions serious, dead serious. As Peter has pointed out with his editing out a thread of "dangerous advice," this board doesn't let much "fuzzy science or fuzzy safety" slide past. The people on this board are really doing our craft a huge service by bringing forth the best practices of what is known around the world today. It is phenomenal!

Ray Laubs
03-01-2012, 03:48 PM
Arsenic doesn't leach, neither does antimony. Barium probably does...

not so much of a leaching factor as it is the fear element in the unlearned...?

John Riepma
03-01-2012, 03:53 PM
Considering what we know of the diet in medieval times I'd be amazed if the lead content of their drinking glasses had anything at all to do with causing gout. A more likely culprit by far would have been pewter drinking vessels or utinsels, but I have to believe that just as today it's far more likely that what was in the glass/on the fork/on the plate caused gout and the myriad other health problems that existed then. Same holds true today. If you drink enough wine to be put in jeopardy by the container, the cirrhosis will bag you long before the lead will.

Pete VanderLaan
03-01-2012, 04:36 PM
not so much of a leaching factor as it is the fear element in the unlearned...?
********
No, just percentages. The antimony in a glass represents significantly less than 1/10th of one percent as opposed to the lead content being at 24%. Same with arsenic. You are never going to see a significant presence in glass. Barium can be high in percentage in some glasses which is why I mentioned it.

Pete VanderLaan
03-01-2012, 04:37 PM
Considering what we know of the diet in medieval times I'd be amazed if the lead content of their drinking glasses had anything at all to do with causing gout. A more likely culprit by far would have been pewter drinking vessels or utinsels, but I have to believe that just as today it's far more likely that what was in the glass/on the fork/on the plate caused gout and the myriad other health problems that existed then. Same holds true today. If you drink enough wine to be put in jeopardy by the container, the cirrhosis will bag you long before the lead will.
******
Well, I agree with that. I think Uric acid is the principal villain in Gout. This seems kind of PC to me.

Lia Howe
03-01-2012, 08:45 PM
My brother( wife was a naturapath) he said that iodine was added to table salt to combat gout a long time ago,( in Michigan I think ) therefore my husband blames me for him getting gout because switched us to sea salt. I think that there is probably something in everything that makes us sick.Lia

Rosanna Gusler
03-02-2012, 06:03 AM
not gout, goiter. rosanna

Lowell Duell
03-02-2012, 10:28 AM
baking soda works for gout if you don't like cortisone/predisone

Joe Pfeifer
03-05-2012, 03:21 PM
(look at vinegar labels. They have a warning for pregnant women in California).