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-   -   Thanks guys (http://talk.craftweb.com/showthread.php?t=12543)

Joseph Schembri 02-21-2020 05:46 AM

Thanks guys
 
1 Attachment(s)
Hey guys first of all I would like to thank you for all the information and advice that you posted. I just tested my first gloryhole build. I built the square design. It went up to 2250 in half an hour, I reduced the propane and went down to a stable 2100 for the next hour.burner never went up more than 120. I used a kg of propane for one hour (about 130 pence) . It is smoking a bit around the burner, could it be because the door is a bit tight I only have a couple of.mm between the door and face. Although I've got more than 30 years experience in glass it was mostly working cold and a little bit of fusing and slumping. I decided that I want to start blowing, and me doing everything backwards wanted to build my equipment first. Haha studio built, glory hole ready wire melter nearly done and soon to start annealer.
When I get everything ready will get a few lessons and start practicing. Lessons in the uk cost a lot about 250 british pounds a day. That's why I wanted my own equipment.

Pete VanderLaan 02-21-2020 06:59 AM

2150F is really cold for getting a gloryhole to do what it needs to do. You won't be able to shape effectively unless it's hotter.

The furnace can be 2150, not the glory hole.

Joseph Schembri 02-21-2020 07:32 AM

It reached 2250 in about 30 min and I reduced the propane. I'll try it tomorrow and see how high it would go full blast.

Pete VanderLaan 02-21-2020 07:51 AM

Does it have forced air? It really should. The type door you have is just like mine and while it works pretty well when mostly closed, it cools off really quickly when opened more than half. I like it but my work no longer relies on a that late heat. Heat has to be thought of as a lubricant.

The best glassworker over there is in Northern Ireland but he doesn't teach.
Do yourself a favor and cover the castable on the door and anywhere that doesn't get abraded with an inch of fiber. Then rigidize that. It will substantially help performance. Or if you prefer White board. Don't ever cover the steel.

Pete VanderLaan 02-21-2020 08:01 AM

If the door had a bit of a redesign making for a railing at the top for a grooved wheel to track in it, then that steel up there would be recessed from the front plate casting. That's true at the bottom as well. That would allow you to better insulate above and below the door. It adds up. Currently the central posts at the top and bottom won't allow for insulation. It may make a fifty degree difference it temperature. That's a lot.

Joseph Schembri 02-21-2020 08:04 AM

Yes it does, I'm using a pine ridge burner. I'll cover the door and castable with fibre and see what happens. How hot should the hole be, a lot of guys say the hotter the better.....but what would your recommended temp be?

Joseph Schembri 02-21-2020 08:08 AM

Not a problem I'll redesign the door

Pete VanderLaan 02-21-2020 08:51 AM

For the lower set of "Rails" on mine, we put a big flat hinged piece on the right that made the door move away from the actual gloryhole as the door tracked left to right. In that case, the roller was attached to the door. As the door moved to the left, the incline on the flat made the door move away from the gloryhole. So, it didn't get stuck. I don't know if your burner was made by Tom Ash or not. Charlie Correll took over making those things when Tom retired.

Temperature with gloryholes does indeed vary depending on what you're making. Really thin wares frequently use a colder gloryhole while big massive stuff requires serious heat. Your skills will also change your needs as you become more facile with the goop. I work well at around 2300F

I don't know if you've ever plastered but beginning folks use a much stiffer mix, just trying to keep it on the wall. As your skills set improves, you prefer a sloppier and wetter mix which allows for far more rapid control. The glass will do that as well.

Eben Horton 02-21-2020 09:48 AM

Square glory holes are very underrated. They have more surface area to hold more heat when the doors are open.

With a door that slides to one side, make sure you make a yolk with 2 sets of bearings so you can put your pipe on the right set when the door is semi closed

Pete VanderLaan 02-21-2020 10:24 AM

well, the converse of that argument is that they have more surface area that needs to be heated than a round one so it costs more to run. .

I like my square one because it was so easy to build compared to a round one. I just swivel on my existing yoke when the door gets opened. It's not bad.

Jordan Kube 02-21-2020 10:24 AM

Well done! I'm not a fan of glory boxes but you gotta start somewhere. Clean the bottom out every morning before you light up. Should last you quite awhile.

Eben Horton 02-21-2020 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete VanderLaan (Post 146938)
well, the converse of that argument is that they have more surface area that needs to be heated than a round one so it costs more to run. .

I like my square one because it was so easy to build compared to a round one. I just swivel on my existing yoke when the door gets opened. It's not bad.

Id happily pay an extra $5.00 in gas to be able to make an extra piece with the time saved throughout the day. That logic is why I would never use a fiber glory hole.

Pete VanderLaan 02-21-2020 11:06 AM

that's a different argument. I make that argument constantly about melting your own color. It seems to fall on deaf ears.

I agree about fiber GH's. Even fiber annealers are risky. Combining a brick floor with fiber walls works. White board as the walls works better.

Shawn Everette 02-21-2020 01:08 PM

What's your thoughts on Skamol? I'm considering it for a small annealer build.

Joseph Schembri 02-21-2020 01:09 PM

The rails the door is on are adjustable. As the door slides to the left it swings out by about 15 mm. When it closes it only leaves about 2 or 3 mm clearance. I might not have experience in blowing but not bad in fabricating. The glory actually reached 2260 in half an hour. And then reduced the propane as I thought it was enough for a test run. I will try it again tomorrow and see how high it will reach before I put the fibre sheeting.

Pete VanderLaan 02-21-2020 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shawn Everette (Post 146943)
What's your thoughts on Skamol? I'm considering it for a small annealer build.

***
If I've ever used it, I don't know it by that name. Henry was all hot to trot on it and at one point was trying to be a dealer. At this point I go with what I know.
I want the tool to tolerate 1700F for starters. I don't want it to turn punky after that insult. The white board lasted me ten years in a ridiculous box built out of a stainless dishwasher. Some of the color class students probably remember it. It came across the country with us and was only retired when Eric Trulson built me this nice new one. It's still sitting up in the loft. .

As to the glory hole. I think you need a minimal amount around one inch to make bothering with the fiber worth your time. You sound like you've done well on providing enough BTU's for the area involved. The point of the track and wheel is simply that it cantilevers the door to where your support post won't get in the way of any extra insulation. Don't make the perfect the enemy of the good especially when it's just some old gaffer squalking at you.
The furnace is really the one that takes a great deal of consideration given that it's on all the time. Wire systems are not among my favorites but there's a lot of good stuff on it in the archives. Look out for sacred geometry. Avoid it.

Shawn Everette 02-21-2020 01:51 PM

Trade name, it's just vermiculite board. It's supposed to tool nicely and be fine at the temps I'm wanting, that's why I'm interested. Also minimal on the dust end of things.

Pete VanderLaan 02-21-2020 02:46 PM

I did use a vermiculite board I got from Tom at High Temp in Fenton Missouri. It was four inches thick and as I recall the pieces were three feet long. I had a bunch of it. I always love calling Tom to see what he has in salvage. I think I used that stuff on my very first moly as the outer surface. It did vacuum which was nice. I would think it would perform in an annealer but it was so dense that it wouldn't be that great as a hot face insulator. I really like the white board. Expensive though!

I need to build yet another kiln to do these castings in and I want it to be gas, given the terrible rates here for power. So, this is really going back in time to the old downdraft things we used to build out of the Anderson Ranch in the Paul Soldner days.

Shawn Everette 02-21-2020 03:05 PM

We'll the idea is buy once, cry once;so I don't have a problem putting money in upfront, if I retain it on the back end. The plan for is for a flame kiln, and then a larger one for powder coating, so max temp is fairly low and really low.

I liked the idea of being able to route the element path, which was why I was leaning toward the vermiculite. Inch of that backed by 2 inches of mineral board.

Pete VanderLaan 02-21-2020 06:18 PM

I do element paths differently. I cut out 1x1 inch strips on the table saw from white board. Then, those are screwed to the white board I've already put up with stainless screws. Two of the strips make a slot and you can't get hurt with touching the slot. Just follow it around until your bloody sick of it. I'd admit the pigtails come out in strange places but that's the way it goes.

I don't have a lot more of these to build Shawn. Not at all.

Marty Kremer 02-21-2020 08:53 PM

Vermiculite as back up, with a layer of fiberboard inside. Elements suspended in quartz tubing.

Pete VanderLaan 02-22-2020 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marty Kremer (Post 146951)
Vermiculite as back up, with a layer of fiberboard inside. Elements suspended in quartz tubing.

*****
The elegance of brevity.

Philip Yamron 02-22-2020 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shawn Everette (Post 146946)
Trade name, it's just vermiculite board. It's supposed to tool nicely and be fine at the temps I'm wanting, that's why I'm interested. Also minimal on the dust end of things.

I've been using 1" vermiculite board as the roof of my annealer for about a year now. The rest is brick. It's been great so far. Backed by 2" of frax. No sag or breaking down that I can see.

Shawn Everette 02-22-2020 09:52 AM

The quartz is one that I'm less inclined to use. I like having access to the elements. Cost adds up and I'm not really seeing more of a benefit than a grooved path.

Pete VanderLaan 02-22-2020 11:18 AM

well, with somewhat less brevity, that's why I do it the way you describe. I do think the quartz tubes are safer but that doesn't really bother me at all. It just continually amazes me how long a sheetrock screw will hold up in this environment- just years.

Josh Bernbaum 02-22-2020 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marty Kremer (Post 146951)
Vermiculite as back up, with a layer of fiberboard inside. Elements suspended in quartz tubing.

Is that a Haiku Marty?

Shawn Everette 02-22-2020 03:32 PM

I've seen enough element creep that I want to be able to pin it when I see it. Can't exactly do it in a tube. I lean towards the recessed elements more because pieces potentially falling over, less about personal safety. If that's the real goal, then a door switch is a much cheaper alternative.

George Vidas 02-22-2020 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Josh Bernbaum (Post 146959)
Is that a Haiku Marty?

fiberboard inside
vermiculite as back up
elements in quartz

http://www.haikusyllablecounter.com/

Pete VanderLaan 02-22-2020 04:21 PM

I love this group sometimes. So much better than Glassies.

Scott Dunahee 02-23-2020 01:43 PM

I built two annealers with 2" skamol inside backed by fiber. They worked great. I routed the element channels in with a normal router.

I also used a piece of left over skamol for the inner hot face ceiling in my pipe warmer. It held up fine in that context for years and is still in service and doing just fine.

BSD

Shawn Everette 02-23-2020 03:28 PM

Thanks Scott, I was hoping I might come across someone that actually used it in the way I had planned. I liked the idea of having a more ideal machining surface than fiberboard or brick.

Scott Dunahee 02-24-2020 06:47 PM

I did have an IFB floor in both of those oven. I like a brick floor.

BSD

Lawrence Duckworth 02-26-2020 07:55 PM

2 Attachment(s)
If I had it to do over again I don’t know that I would use an expensive controller, I think I paid 15-1600 bucks a piece for these and all I do is turn them on and off....I don’t run a program anymore, they cool so slow I don’t need to.
They hold the heat and are still around 250/350 in the morning after cooling through the night. I’ve done it this way with pumpkins and paperweights since 2014 without any problems

......would the cost of the extra fire brick to do the walls and ceiling be offset by eliminating the cost of an expensive controller and the electricity to run the annealer every night all night?

Pete VanderLaan 02-26-2020 08:20 PM

There's a difference between annealing and kiln action Lawrence. Your approach works in a coarse annealing sort of way but you would have issues if you were making thicker works. Controllers are relatively cheap actually.

Lawrence Duckworth 02-26-2020 08:33 PM

😂 ...on average I would say my pumpkins weighed about 3 lbeez...paperweights are pretty thick too.

My point was mostly directed to the cost of ifb being a non issue.....🤔 does that make any cents

Shawn Everette 02-27-2020 07:58 AM

If the kiln was for blowing I'd consider it, but a flame cycle is so short ifb doesn't add any benefit. The other kiln is for powder coating, so that's even less of a concern. I want it to get hot fast and cool fast.

Pete VanderLaan 02-27-2020 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lawrence Duckworth (Post 147019)
😂 ...on average I would say my pumpkins weighed about 3 lbeez...paperweights are pretty thick too.

My point was mostly directed to the cost of ifb being a non issue.....🤔 does that make any cents

***

make a few witness weights Lawrence. Just straight clear and make them exactly the way you would do your regular production. Then Check them in a polarimeter. If it's mostly grey, you're fine. If it has a presentation of color(s) or big "X" s you're stressed.


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