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Pete VanderLaan 12-28-2004 04:50 PM

Actually, If I didn't have one anyway, I would get an oxy acetylene unit way before getting a stick welder or anything else. Learning gas welding is an important skill. It may be slow but it really is not an item one can substitute for.

...and get a big one at a real welding supply house.

Jay Holden 12-29-2004 03:29 PM

Re: ...along the same vein
[quote]Originally posted by Donovan Brooke
[b]Well, I'm in need of a metal chop saw

Donovan, I just bought a Craftsman 14" chop saw off ebay brand new for $91.00. It's great. There are a lot of chop saws and tile saws on ebay for sale. I also have a Craftsman Mig welder and an airgas torch. Yes, I can gas weld. I used to weld gas lines for Corning when I was a pipefitter there. I don't have the certification any more though.

Donovan Brooke 12-29-2004 03:33 PM

thanks. :)


12-29-2004 07:16 PM

Dave is absolutely right about the 7014 and 7018 rods. Somehow 6013 became the legendary rod of choice but there is no comparison to ease or success in making beautiful strong welds. The one thing I would add to this is that horizontal band saws are quiet, easy to use, make beautiful angled cuts ready to weld. They are not too expensive and with a good bimetal blade, will cut a huge amount of steel. You can do other things while the cut is being made and no ear plugs are necessary. I really dislike the chop saws for sparks and noise. My Delta band saw is now six years old and only changing blades has been needed.

Steve Stadelman 12-29-2004 08:00 PM

Hugh, all my shop teachers (and I took a LOT of shop!) explained that 6013 got a lot better penetration and therefore made better welds.

These days I just turn down the wire feed speed.:D

Charlie Holden 12-29-2004 10:44 PM

From the aluminum hats department, has anybody ever played around with a Brown's Gas torch? There are some very strange claims made for this stuff:

It heats different materials to different temperatures. It will vaporize tungsten but barely heat water.

The flame is a series of implosions instead of explosions.

Cut through scale or rust on iron with no spitting.

The flame will glaze a brick.

It is a mixture, from electrolized water, of hydrogen and oxygen that has never been seperated. The two gasses are collected together. I think it is somehow electrolized differently than the classic high school physics method, but I couldn't tell you how. Some people say it is mon-atomic hydrogen and oxygen but others say that is impossible. One guy says it is electrically expanded water, whatever that is.

Anyway, it seems like it would be fun to play around with.


Steve Stadelman 12-29-2004 10:58 PM

Well, that pegs my bullshittometer.

TC Robertson 12-30-2004 12:04 AM

I just saw a website that gives plans to run your car on that stuff, you know, water. The only catch I saw was, you had have the pistons and valves coated with ceramic. Sounds pricey. I am going to look into building one for cutting, experimenting. I know jewelers who use those micro-torchs, and they seem to work fine.
I like the treated water that acts like coffee, without the side effects, like going to the bathroom often? Later, TC ;)

Dave Bross 12-30-2004 10:54 AM

The hydrogen/Brown's gas stuff is for real.

The problem for useage at scales above jewelry torches is storing and pressurizing the gas.

Pete is quite right about the benefits of learning to oxy acetylene/propane weld first if you can afford the time. It will make everything afterwards a breeze, and you will use it a lot on small stuff. It does take quite a bit of practice to get it right, or my memory is that it did for me.

Steve is right about the greater penetration on 6013 rods, but, you've got to be highly skilled to get even a passable weld. For most folks you get a weaker weld with the 60 series rods if your skills aren't top notch. There was always some comment among welders that the union pipe welders insisted on the 60 series rods (and the skill required to use them)being held as the standard of the industry as sort of a job protection strategy.

My current gas welding setup is the gang of three used medical oxygen concentrators I usually use for my lampworking torch with propane. Enough pressure to weld but not to cut. No bottles to lug or run out at a critical moment late at night.

Pete VanderLaan 12-30-2004 11:19 AM

I believe in the torch because a lot of metal cuts simply aren't straight in furnace building, It's the notched stuff that a chop saw just won't handle. I have both types of welders but it you can only have one, I would go gas. I suppose I would like a wire feed unit too but frankly I don't weld enough to justify the expense.

I used to have a horizontal hacksaw and vastly preferred it to the chopsaw for the same reasons Hugh gave. After 20 years, it gave up the last ghost and I sold it off. I'd love another one.

TC Robertson 12-30-2004 01:19 PM

I too have loved the band saw for many years. But, after getting my 2nd from Harbor Fright I was dissapointed by the thing srewing up way too much,( I know, go American), and we got a chop saw. For speed its the deal, we hack oodles of copper pipe and not so much steel so we grin and bear it. A nice Delta or other US brand is in my future though. I must build a new furnace now, so budget is limited for new tools. Later, TC :p

Pete VanderLaan 12-30-2004 02:24 PM

check out the soft brick prices at Hi temp. $1.80 for 2600F IFB.

Steve Stadelman 12-30-2004 05:15 PM

I went to my welding store this afternoon and a millermatic 175 was $695.00. A real nice price for a 240 volt portable.

I also purchased a miller variable shade autodarkening helmet for $210.00. I just can't do Harbor Freight for that. Lots of other stuff, not my eyes.

Steve Stadelman 12-30-2004 05:17 PM


Originally posted by Pete VanderLaan
check out the soft brick prices at Hi temp. $1.80 for 2600F IFB.
That is a smokin' good price, I bet by the time I get them shipped here it's only $.35 more than buying them local!:D :D :D

Man oh man! motorfreight is wicked now!

Scott Dunahee 12-30-2004 05:25 PM


Originally posted by Steve Stadelman

Man oh man! motorfreight is wicked now!

Ain't that true. We're set to recieve an order from Spruce Pine and the shipping is about $.10 per pound for 2 tons...


Pete VanderLaan 12-30-2004 05:38 PM


Originally posted by Steve Stadelman
That is a smokin' good price, I bet by the time I get them shipped here it's only $.35 more than buying them local!:D :D :D

Man oh man! motorfreight is wicked now!

Maybe on your local. Have you checked your local prices this week? I'm curious.

Tom Whitehead 12-30-2004 10:19 PM

Hi, Thought I'd jump in here and disagree with about everyone. I think you should get an older ac or dc machine, that you know is copper wound. It makes a big differance in arc stability. General rule is : he more it weighs, the better. My favorite is Lincoln. As far as rods go, I use 7018 sometimes and love it, but it leaves a hard glassy slag that can get in the way if your not careful, or can fall down if you're welding vertical down or overhead. Ypou have to keep it very dry or it'll splatter all over hell and gone. And even when you do keep it dry, it only lasts about 6 months once you open the can. 7014 is really a build-up rod good penetration, high slag, but only good welding flat. Lovely weld tho. 6013 is really a shallow penetration rod good for clean sheet metal and box tube as long as it's tightly fitted. I've welded with it to where it looks like I have the most beautiful weld in the world, then chipped the slag away only to find I had 2 beautiful welds, one on each side of the crack!! Still, if you turn up the amps, you can go like hell and get a nice flat bead too. So my fav is ( do I hear a chorus of groans?) 6011. Yup, the original splatter rod. I think of it as the Swiss Army knife of rods, you can weld anything with it in any position, no matter how old or rusty. And unlike 6013, what you see is what you get. If it looks like you're filling then you are. Plus if you have a really big gap to fill, you can chip the flux off one rod and use it, along with the rod you're burning to fill it. Kinda like welding with a gas torch. The only thing I use my gas rig for is brazing and welding mufflers,(only when I have to!) Don't worry about using a 70 rod for strength, regular steel is only 36,000 lbs tensile, so anything you use will be stronger then the steel it'self.
Good Luck, Tom:rolleyes:

Tom Whitehead 12-30-2004 10:22 PM

Oh Yeah, I heard a roumor that if you ask at the welding shop, they can get you a new Lincoln 225 copper wound. Anybody know if that's true?

Andrew Brott 12-31-2004 02:10 PM

As fate has it I was about to ask a similar question, but mine was this. Who has the best deal on 220v (and above) mig welder with gas hoses and regulator? Can I get a lincoln, miller, or hobart and not spend more than $850 out the door ? Should I even look @ a tig?
What about horizontal metal cutting band saws? How much do I need to spend to get a "decent" one? Delta? Has any recently purchased a set of rollers? I was looking @ these any other suggestions?

I am over chop saws and stick welders, but will always need a oxy-acetylene rig and a belt/disk sander...
Warm Regards,
p.s. 6011 is for penetrating, 6013 is for filling, and mig does both...

Steve Stadelman 12-31-2004 02:21 PM

Don't get a TIG until you need it, if you are just doing shop fab get something like the miller 175, like I posted, $695.00.

It will be more once you get a tank, but that's all you will need because they sell them with regulator and hoses.

And I totally agree with Alexander, buy from a welding shop, Then you will have a face to deal with if you have problems, need advice or consumables.

A good TIG will start at $15-$1600.00 I would not even consider a scratch tig.

John Riepma 12-31-2004 04:59 PM

[What about horizontal metal cutting band saws? How much do I need to spend to get a "decent" one? Delta? Has any recently purchased a set of rollers? I was looking @ these any other suggestions?]

I think the most versatile thing out there for bandsaws is the Parma roll-in saw that Dake sells or something like it.
It will do square notch-out cuts, which a horizontal won't, miters, cutoff which a conventional bandsaw won't beyond a short length, etc., and it power feeds with hydraulic damping. Not the cheapest, but it's used by a lot of the fab shops you see on TV building custom bikes & cars, etc. Of course, those guys seem to have access to lots o' cash.

Alexander Adams 12-31-2004 06:51 PM

Enco has a wide variety of bandsaws that are usually priced well.

Todd Nelson 01-02-2005 09:18 AM

After spending several years under a helmet a short explanation of rod numbers... the first 2 digits are the tensile strength of the the weld left behind, ie 6011 is 60,000psi and so forth. The next number is the position. 1 is for all positions and 2 is for horixontal only..and the forth nuber has someting to do with the flux on the rod...if you want to keep your rods fresh keep them in a warm, dry environment, like an old frig(with a light bulb on inside) or maybe in the corner of an annealer. You could take them out the day b/4 you need them and they won't have soaked up all that humidity!

Pete VanderLaan 01-02-2005 12:01 PM

I will be moving this thread to antiques and classics when it plays out. Thanks to everyone for a ton of information on a neglected subject.

Allan Gott 01-02-2005 03:23 PM

Rod storage
I have too many boxes of 70 series rod that have been sitting in dry, sometimes very cold, storage for quite a while now and being an auction buy I have no idea how old they really are. I'm OK with 60 series rods but I find the 70's difficult to use.

Could this be a storage problem and if so, would an experienced welder consider them unuseable? Can they be rescued?

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