CraftWEB Hot Glass Talk

CraftWEB Hot Glass Talk (http://talk.craftweb.com/index.php)
-   General Hot Glass Discussion (http://talk.craftweb.com/forumdisplay.php?f=4)
-   -   Furnace build thread (http://talk.craftweb.com/showthread.php?t=7292)

David Patchen 01-21-2011 01:22 AM

I really like the idea of a design where the pot and front of the furnace are basically a cart that can lower and roll out for changes. The current design where you have to move the most fragile and critical parts of your furnace (elements, crown) to get to the part you're going to trash (old pot) seems like it could use some re-engineering.

Pete VanderLaan 01-21-2011 06:38 AM

Even in a kiln car design. you had better pull the elements. Things get stuck together in a glass furnace and getting them loose takes force. The difficulty in the design in which the crown remains in place is always the same- the span of the crown that is unsupported.

Lawrence Duckworth 01-21-2011 08:10 AM

Lets say you have the castings for a 400# stadelman, and a 200# pot. cutting about 8” or so off the length of the three curved wall castings lowering the overall interior height but allowing the heating elements to hang between the 200# pot and the larger diameter 400# wall castings. this would lower the furnace height allowing more room to pull the heaters and get some heat down lower too….…..and if’n you don’t like the castings maybe just use those tiny tiny ifb to lay up a chamber like they did in the Norway furnace.




I’d be curious to here some crown improvement ideas

Josh Bernbaum 01-21-2011 09:19 AM

Or preferably use some hard bricks instead of the IFB's.
You'd have to know someone with a huge diamond saw to cut the castings down I'd imagine. Sounds interesting as far as getting elements lower and more room for them around outside of pot, but wouldn't you be sacrificing space for your soft insulation between the casting and the steel exterior? Unless you expand the steel shell as well I suppose.

Have folks had problems with breaking the crowns on moly furnaces while doing a pot change? If it sounds like the elements and passage bricks need to be removed even if the furnace design is a front-pot access, is it that much more problematic to remove the crown too and stick with the more straightforward top-pot change design which should allow for maximum structural integrity of the furnace?

Pete VanderLaan 01-21-2011 09:25 AM

In conversation with Charlie this morning, he want to pull the pot from the crown. He says he has an evenly split crown with arch support and that it works great, so I am going along with his design since he has built a boatload of them. The trouble with my rectangle is that there is a lot of unused space you have to pay to heat. This doesn't bother me and I put three pots in the furnace anyways, not one. I do it out the front because I've always done it out the front.

You have to pay attention to the watt loading that each element provides based on both the hot and the cold zones. Each one changes as it's sizing changes. Mine runs about 20,000 watts. The wattage has to be able to drive the size of the furnace or you will have the equivalent of a VW bug on a hill with a ton of lead in the back seat. One of the big troubles with the wire furnaces which are really just converted ceramic kilns is that while they might have the physical capacity for a large pot, they do not have the amps to get it hot enough to not drive a pro shop nuts.

Pete VanderLaan 01-21-2011 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Josh Bernbaum (Post 93861)
Have folks had problems with breaking the crowns on moly furnaces while doing a pot change? If it sounds like the elements and passage bricks need to be removed even if the furnace design is a front-pot access, is it that much more problematic to remove the crown too and stick with the more straightforward top-pot change design which should allow for maximum structural integrity of the furnace?

******************
The problem I see with the existing crowns are that they are flat, not arched. Most of the parts replacements we are doing are related to the kind of glass being melted. Sadly the Spectrum nuggets are a common denominator in most of the parts failures. We just finished a long test comparing Engineered Ceramics pot to High Temp pots using the nuggets. In both cases the pots experienced really substantial pitting in short order to the point where we are just not going to recommend high alumina pots to people insisting on using Nuggets anymore. Our next set of tests will involve melting SP87 in the same containers and seeing how they do comparatively. We will have all the test samples at Seattle GAS. What was interesting in the testing was that there were no signs of free alumina in the melted glass which would indicate to me that the China Clays in the formulation are what is being attacked and dissolved readily. You have to have some clay in the mix. . That would be consistent with the damage we see on fireclay and silicate parts to the furnaces as well. ( the door area).

The other thing that has to be considered in these failures is operator inexperience. It's quite formidable in many cases. The bigger furnaces have the biggest problems. Anything above a 24 inch pot has a very big unsupported area and the crown really wants to sit down.

Getting vents on these furnaces is going to be critical.

Thomas Chapman 01-21-2011 09:54 AM

Italian style furnace
 
When I last visited Glass Eye about 6 years ago they had an Italian furnace (Fiorni--sp?). It seemd to be designed so that (to change pots) the entire bottom was unbolted and the old crucible dropped out along with its insulation and steel jacket. Remove and discard, then bring in the new component, jack it up to position and replace the fasteners. (It was a gas-fueled unit, if I recall.) Seemed like a good approach.

Pete VanderLaan 01-21-2011 11:45 AM

I have real insulation problems with the falorni. I don't like bottom fire furnaces much at all.

David Russell 01-21-2011 04:52 PM

i have had good>great experiences in the past with charlie's two part arch crown on a 200lb pot.

while it takes some muscle, the ability to manual lift the crown of yourself is nice, one piece at a time usually, unless i am feeling really good that day......

over a few years the two halves receded from each other only a little bit and that space was easily stuffed with frax.

a pot change was always a little work but it was simple, direct, effective and done alone.

i think charlie makes great equipment and is a great guy........my 2 cents worth

Jordan Kube 01-21-2011 05:15 PM

You can roll the furnace out with the elements in place. You'll be going about six feet or so and the concrete floor should be a smooth ride. I don't know that I've ever had one break from rolling a furnace around, even on less than perfect floors.

I've thought a lot about those designs Lawrence and I haven't ever got past that one problem. Steel will fail. Try and keep things simple. Don't overbuild it.

Lawrence Duckworth 01-21-2011 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jordan Kube (Post 93879)

I've thought a lot about those designs Lawrence and I haven't ever got past that one problem. Steel will fail. Try and keep things simple. Don't overbuild it.






all I want to do is make a glass pumpkin:)

Pete VanderLaan 01-22-2011 05:16 AM

copy that to the thread on making a good red glass.

Lawrence Duckworth 01-24-2011 06:51 AM

Jordon

say I put a piece of half inch in a forge and let it get white hot, unless the steel is upset or stressed it shouldn’t lose shape until somewhere around 2600f. so…how fast would the steel ring fail, wouldn’t it be the equivalent of an annealing every time it cooled to change out the pot and likely last at least as long as the castings?



Btw,..I ordered the Stadelman 200# castings and a pot the other day :)...keepin-it-simple

Doug Sheridan 01-24-2011 07:17 AM

I've tried venting with a 1" inside diameter vent out the top. Using the nuggets, the vent was destroyed quickly. Buildup around the ceramic tube and then eventually total failure, meaning the tube dissolved.
In the larger furnaces, I can't imagine anything working to vent the nugget fumes. It's like trying to find a container for the world's strongest acid.
Now with SP, and no vent, I've really not seen a need for venting, at least for my 250 lb. and 80 lb. furnaces.

Pete VanderLaan 01-24-2011 08:12 AM

You have to ream it out periodically. I would make a good sized hole and just cover it with a brick when not being used. It doesn't have to be slick.

Jordan Kube 01-24-2011 06:56 PM

It will loose shape and it won't be steel anymore either. Leave that forge on for six months with that chunk of steel in there and see what you get.

Pete VanderLaan 01-24-2011 07:11 PM

Hey, cover a piece of steel with fiber on a furnace and the next morning there won't be any steel at all.

Lawrence Duckworth 02-04-2011 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jordan Kube (Post 93879)
the concrete floor should be a smooth ride.
.


We finished smoothing the floor yesterday :)

http://www.clevelandsteel.us/art2htlm.html

David Patchen 02-04-2011 10:46 AM

Beautiful! It's too nice for a hot shop :)

Pete VanderLaan 02-04-2011 12:29 PM

Good thing it's not a gas furnace. The vibration from the blower could make the furnace start moving around the building late at night by itself.

Brian Gingras 02-04-2011 01:13 PM

I work on a floor like that, I used to clip and slide all the time...a little bit of glass dust and away you go.

Ted Trower 02-04-2011 01:38 PM

That's how the floors are finished at the Toledo Museum of Art studios.

Sky Campbell 02-04-2011 02:41 PM

Wow those floors are beautiful! I guess that would be considered terrazzo? I always thought that style floor would have a come back. I can only imagine what that would look like with glass for aggregate instead of stone. Either way very classy looking and easy to clean I'm sure.

Lawrence Duckworth 02-04-2011 08:51 PM

This is polished concrete and in some way I guess the process and equipment are similar to terrazzo but grinding and polishing the buildings ordinary concrete slab is a bunch cheaper than the real deal.. http://www.bluefieldfloors.com/ give ‘em a call :)

Pete VanderLaan 02-05-2011 05:54 AM

I remember when I was a kid and I was making adobe bricks for the first time. I made stationary forms that held four bricks each and I would lay them down and put the red dirt, sand and straw mix in and smooth them perfectly with a wet towel and then let them dry overnight before I pulled the forms and stood them on edge to dry. They were absolutely perfect. I could make about 60 a day that way working hard..

My friend JJ Gonzales came over and looked at it and went off and made a form out of crappy 1x4's and came back and just wet down the entire dirt pile for about an hour with a big pool of water in the center. He threw in the straw and a couple of guys he always broguht up from Chihuahua stomped around in it with their feet. Then they took the single form and proceeded to fill it, mush it down and smooth the top with an old rag. They then jerked the form then and there and moved on to the next one. They made about 750 adobes in a few hours. In seven days we had enough to build the house

At the end, JJ said, "PV, your adobes are made with too much love."

Lawrence Duckworth 02-07-2011 08:56 AM

Nice story…PV

I remember when I was a kid helping my grandfather shingle the toe house atop the ski hill, the highest point around for miles mind you, and him cussing around about me not keeping the shingles square and straight. I said, “Why Grandpa, no one will see this way up here”…..then summmore cussing ensued.

I suspect the 750 brick were of a lesser quality. but like you say, ya got the house built

Pete VanderLaan 02-07-2011 09:35 AM

Actually, the ones JJ made were better. Since you pull the form when it's so sloppy, the corners rise up slightly and dry that way. The brick is laid with that face down. You lay down a line of mud and then plop the brick on. The upturned corners facing down create a suction. If the face was flat, the brick would slide around.

My point is to keep the eye on the prize, in my case a place to live, in yours a place to make good art. . The adobes were part of that process but were never the house. I see a lot of studios where the shop is gorgeous and nothing really good ever gets made in it . I implore you , Don't do that. IMHO.

But it is really nice.

Lawrence Duckworth 02-08-2011 05:04 PM

I’ve never laid an adobe brick…the modern wood molds might be sorta like the adobe in that they have a recess, we always called that recess a “frog” [I laid a lot of brick in my first life]
Heres a photo of the brick wall separating the shop from the guest instructors living area

Pete VanderLaan 02-08-2011 06:09 PM

Well, it's really beautiful Lawrence. When do I instruct?

Virgil Jones 02-23-2011 12:40 PM

What temp. do you bring the batch up to? I understood that it got goopy after a certain temperature, Thanks, Virgil

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Hopman (Post 82477)
I preheated all the pellet/cullet charges for 8 years- it's not a big deal to do it. Stainless restaurant steam table pans make nice containers to heat in, and are about $25, so reasonable. One 4" deep pan holds about 40 pounds of pellets, a 6" deep one will hold a lot more.


David Hopman 02-24-2011 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Virgil Jones (Post 94537)
What temp. do you bring the batch up to? I understood that it got goopy after a certain temperature, Thanks, Virgil

950, still rock hard at that temp.

Virgil Jones 02-26-2011 11:24 AM

thanks, david.
i'll give it a try

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Hopman (Post 94554)
950, still rock hard at that temp.


Pete VanderLaan 02-26-2011 01:49 PM

[quote=Virgil Jones;9453

I understood that it got goopy after a certain temperature, Thanks, Virgil[/QUOTE]

************************
That's called melting Virgil. That's what it's supposed to do.

Scott Garrelts 03-02-2011 11:46 AM

When doing a pot change... does it matter (for the elements sake) at what rate you cool it down? Can you open the door to speed up the process or could this cause some stress? At what temperature would one say it is safe to open the door and start to disassemble?

Pete VanderLaan 03-02-2011 12:17 PM

I read the super Kanthal handbook and it indicates that the elements are not prone to thermal shock. It is certainly true that you can hot change an element. I don't try to tear things down until I can actually touch the materials without wanting to drop them. I think that would be a good goal when handling the elements or passage bricks. Don't drop them!

So, while there are a myriad of ways to break elements, thermal shocking would not be one of them. Try putting them in a trebuchet and see what that gets you. Shoot for the Nebraska Line.

Lawrence Duckworth 03-10-2011 08:29 PM

This is the start of my 200# furnace build.
Please feel free to jump in with any questions or advice!


Okee-dokeeeee…here's what the 200# stadelman castings look like.

Pete VanderLaan 03-11-2011 06:07 AM

don't forget to flip them over. The pallet goes on top.

Rick Sherbert 03-14-2011 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lawrence Duckworth (Post 93826)
Are the heaters and crown so fragile that moving or rolling the furnace with the heaters installed a bad idea? Will that lill bit of vibration break ‘em?


I fear I’ve screwed up before even getting started. I may not have the overall headroom to pull the heaters out from the top unless I roll the furnace out into the open shop....[i have an 8 foot ceiling behind the 7 foot hood aprin.]


Lawrence,
That's a sweet looking hood. What material is that? Can you talk about the construction?

Lawrence Duckworth 03-14-2011 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick Sherbert (Post 95107)
Lawrence,
That's a sweet looking hood. What material is that? Can you talk about the construction?

Galvanized slab form decking…do you think that will get hot enough to be a health hazard?

Lawrence Duckworth 03-17-2011 09:09 PM

............44" dia. base


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:39 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© CraftWEB.com. Opportunity Network. 2008. All Rights Reserved.