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Art Freas 11-12-2019 07:57 PM

Anyone find the patent?

Pete VanderLaan 11-12-2019 08:31 PM

that won't happen and there's nothing to patent.

Jordan Kube 11-12-2019 08:37 PM

This is Christian Thorntan's mix that he uses for his factory down in Mexico. It raises the expansion of container glass to let it work with the commercial color out there and maybe softens up the glass a bit to help the workability. Last I heard he was selling it to people who want to do a similar thing. It's probably not a tough thing to figure out on your own if one was interested. It's not rocket science people.

He was scheduled to give a talk at the San Jose GAS conference but wasn't able to make it but one of engineers came and gave an excellent presentation on what they are doing on the energy efficiency front. I would have to say from the looks of it he's probably doing more with that kind of thing than anyone else right now.

Shawn Everette 11-12-2019 08:42 PM

Ditto. Did find an interesting one about a 3d print extruder.

To Pete: just cause it's "patent pending" doesn't mean it's above the radar. Not sure the ****s the epa gives in MA. Plus these guys have already claimed we're running out of silica.

Pete VanderLaan 11-13-2019 08:27 AM

The first time I softened plate glass with soda was with John Bingham in Santa Fe in 1972. John wanted to do his BA Thesis there and found that the Kugler rod he had brought did not fit the plate glass in any way. So, we added soda at the time and softened it quite a bit with the benefit that the kugler we had fit the plate finally. John had brought a mess of it in from Orrefors and it was the first time I ever saw it used.

Adding stuff to cullet is not rocket science as Jordan says, it's been done for years but you have to appreciate people trying to make a buck off of it. If the cullet is clean, it can be melted. John did Mayonaisse bottles in Boulder for years. It was just really short and had bad luster which is the same issue today. Once John came and used my formulas later on, he never wanted to go back having seen what kind of polish could be achieved. I think if you added three pounds of soda ash to every 100lbs of cullet, it would bring it right up. Three pounds of Potash would make it look nicer but would not affect the expansion as much. I think adding a bit of barium would help brightness. Suggesting that the mix automatically makes a 96 is just ignorance at work or a bad summation of a reporter's notes.

The thing that sort of concerns me at this point is the cost of the test tooling. My Strainoptics polarimeter was $2,000 dollars back in 2001. Now Strainoptics will just rent you the tool for $1,500 dollars for two weeks. My Chipmunk crusher is now over $7,000 dollars. I don't know how small shops can really afford to do any quality testing at this point.

Shawn Everette 11-13-2019 10:52 AM

I've seen the leisures reporters will take with the information given, but it starts somewhere and there seems to be a fair amount of detail from the source. I have no doubts you can make a better glass with additives, but as you elude, expecting any kind of consistency with continuously shifting variables is a fools errand.

Do you think the rising testing costs might be a result of standardization in the general market, and such needs becoming boutique?

Pete VanderLaan 11-13-2019 11:51 AM

well, I think that people may want to know what their materials are actually doing, but they certainly don't want to pay for the knowledge. That's where if I give away a formula, that's great but if I have the audacity to suggest the information was won the hard way and there should be compensation, the interest absolutely drops dead.

I view free information as having no value when it comes to being actionable. If you pay to get it, one tends to pay attention. When they fly me to Shanghai, they really do listen.

It is the case I'm sure that buying a strainoptics unit is pretty far down the wishlist. I have to wonder how far down a copy of GlassnotesIV will become as it becomes harder to find. It won't take much to really create an ignorant audience. As I said, Croucher is retired, Mark is 81, I'm getting along to retirement, Wooley is totally gone.

That article is really irritating in that it throws around some real numbers making one think it has substance and then says stupid stuff like the world is running out of beaches ( which are largely calcium carb) in the carribbean. Our silica doesn't come from beaches. What it does is to offer up the panacea that isotoner additives will make everything great so buy it. There are charlatans all over trying to get your dollars. I do think that soda ash can be added to bottle cullet and that things can be made with it.

Shawn Everette 11-13-2019 02:54 PM

I don't know that I can truly believe that a monetary requirement makes information actionable, you've met college students. I'm also highly dubious that the quality of higher education has risen proportionally to costs.

One of the things that I think has changed is access to free information, for better or worse. While there has always been a plethora of bad free information, you generically had to know someone to have access to it prior to the internet. Now you just fire up youtube. For people that liked actual research that pitfall can mostly be avoided with due diligence, and the wealth of good information more than makes up for the bad. For the post internet crop, I question if they'll be capable of such distinctions.

Maybe I'm just getting old. I should be closing on a house in a couple weeks, can finally have a lawn to tell those damn kids to get off of.

Art Freas 11-13-2019 05:12 PM


Originally Posted by Pete VanderLaan (Post 145887)
that won't happen and there's nothing to patent.

I get that, just wondering if he did manage to get a patent somewhere since he claims a patent. Being in the IT industry I have seen some really ridiculous patents.

Pete VanderLaan 11-13-2019 06:24 PM

If the patent said what people are claiming , it would say

Add: to ten lbs of cullet
1.5 lbs of soda ash, .25 lbs barium carb
mix well.
melt at 2325F.
Results may vary

Great patent.

Art Freas 11-13-2019 08:30 PM

Remember, MacAfee got a patent for logging in over the internet at one point before it was overturned years later, nothing would surprise me.

Jordan Kube 11-13-2019 11:31 PM

Add $1000 and that's the price of the polarimeter today. After using one for so long I wouldn't want to make color without it.

Pete VanderLaan 11-14-2019 08:36 AM


Originally Posted by Jordan Kube (Post 145906)
Add $1000 and that's the price of the polarimeter today. After using one for so long I wouldn't want to make color without it.

It's just not a complex machine but it is accurate and well made. That being said, why it would go up $1,000 isn't reflected in new features. I would assume that they don't sell many at all and that reflects the pricing. Renting it out says a lot about demand as well.

I think you could just sell video of people whistling by graveyards that would be more popular.

Rick Kellner 11-14-2019 12:41 PM

Are you using a standard PS-100 polarimeter, or do you have a bunch of specialized optional accessories to enhance the utility of the device?

Pete VanderLaan 11-14-2019 01:52 PM

It includes a senermont analyzer but no other attachments. I can't see any obvious need for others but I would not want to be without this attachment.
Testing is such a strange pursuit. I don't really think all that many studios even have decent sized diamond saws and that makes ring testing hard. Clearly, dilatometers are close to non existent. I don't sense much interest in testing anyways. The number of people making color is small. I think the real mismatch problem is really with the cullets available and in my mind that should simply not be happening, but it is. Making your glass a 96 is not hard.

Pete VanderLaan 11-14-2019 03:18 PM

I also think that if you were building your own that the senermont would be the one part to buy.

Michael Ahlefeldt-Laurvig 11-14-2019 07:27 PM

Iif Glasma makes the perfect glass and the Germans make the perfect colors, why bother
getting into more trouble than running a studio already is?

Pete VanderLaan 11-15-2019 07:49 AM

well, I could not support the notion that Germany makes perfect colors as any kind of given. If I looked at commercial color my aesthetic criticism would be that far too frequently, everyone's work looks like everyone else's work.

But... it is my experience in many studios that if nothing is broken, they'll try something else every time. I see it again and again.

Shawn Everette 11-15-2019 08:45 AM


Originally Posted by Michael Ahlefeldt-Laurvig (Post 145914)
Iif Glasma makes the perfect glass and the Germans make the perfect colors,

That's a pretty strong statement to make about something so subjective, especially without metrics to back it up.

Rick Kellner 11-15-2019 12:02 PM


Originally Posted by Pete VanderLaan (Post 145913)
I also think that if you were building your own that the senermont would be the one part to buy.

Thank you for the info. Next question for an inquiring mind:

What's the difference between plane and circular configurations, in terms of polarimetry with these units?

Pete VanderLaan 11-15-2019 12:34 PM

If you mean reading things that are 3-D, I don't know. I can certainly put a paperweight of substantial size in the unit and get good reads. I can do that with large pieces of Schott as well. I don't usually shoot blown ware- it's awkward and most of mine are rather dark. .

Michael Ahlefeldt-Laurvig 11-15-2019 12:59 PM

Hundreds of colors are made, sombody makinfåg something different?

Pete VanderLaan 11-15-2019 03:30 PM

Have you heard of Gaffer?

Michael Ahlefeldt-Laurvig 11-15-2019 08:30 PM

You mean that the work becomes more induvidual when using Gaffer? I meant can you make a color thats not made commercially? That stands out as different?

Michael Ahlefeldt-Laurvig 11-15-2019 10:11 PM

Pete- do you think without the German colors, the studio glass thing could even have happend?

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