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-   -   Well this is exciting news!! (http://talk.craftweb.com/showthread.php?t=12468)

Pete VanderLaan 11-11-2019 08:56 AM

Well this is exciting news!!
 
I love hucksters:

https://yesweekly.com/the-science-behind-glassblowing/

Shawn Everette 11-11-2019 09:52 AM

Yeah I'm curious how they're turning "any" glass into "96".

John Riepma 11-11-2019 10:03 AM

All of the very bestest stuff is coming from Mexico!

Josh Bernbaum 11-11-2019 10:05 AM

I started reading and thought it was an interesting article and I enjoyed hearing more about their educational mission until the second I read that line about the "patented formula for transforming any glass into a 96"..
Yeah, gimme a break (so to speak)

Mark Rosenbaum 11-11-2019 10:20 AM

It's MAGIC!!!!

David Patchen 11-11-2019 10:26 AM

Of course this can't be correct, but I know some folks who use his additives with recycled glass and swear by them. Specifically the guys who run the shop at Soneva Fushi in the Maldives melt bottle glass and add Thornton's mix and they can combine the resulting clear with commercial color. They've hosted lots of top-tier artists at their studio and the finished work seems to be fine. I'm as shocked as anyone, and I'm sure the bottles have to be clear and from the same manufacturer or you'd end up with a cordy mess that's not even compatible with itself. But we should get someone who uses the additives to weigh in since it does seem impossible.

Pete VanderLaan 11-11-2019 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Patchen (Post 145862)
But we should get someone who uses the additives to weigh in since it does seem impossible.

****
Oh, I'm waiting.

I remember when Fritz used to pull people's legs with the recommendation that they add a can of "Seedz be gone", or "Cords Away" to cullet. he had to stop because people kept trying to buy it.

This seems more like Heidi Broderbund's "15 percent rule" for those who have long memories. That was the maximum amount of any glass you could just add to your work with no issues.

The best part of that "magic Mountain on the Austro/Czech border when the lead was harmlessly leached out of the cullet." Great stuff and then she named her cullet company "Czech Glass". Henry thought that was hysterical.

At one early time, we were adding soda ash to plate glass and getting it to where it wouldn't actually break things if you used Kugler with it. .

Credit for this alert goes to Scott Benefield.

Eben Horton 11-11-2019 12:48 PM

Um.... sounds like someone needs to do some mansplaining

Pete VanderLaan 11-11-2019 01:32 PM

It just gets me to whining again. When we added soda ash to the plate, finally it didn't break but that doesn't really mean a lot. I just didn't know much then. My concern now, particularly as I look to the Corning collection is glass that represents over 3000 years of process. Most stuff didn't make it but this did and it was simply because it was made without tons of stress and a lot of care. . If those old guys knew to travel to northern turkey from the Euphrates valley to find antimony, can't we do better?

David Patchen 11-11-2019 02:22 PM

Just talked to a former user of the magic powder. Here's what I learned:

1. The hotshop used only clear bottles for cullet, carefully removed labels, glue and crushed them.
2. They add 10% by weight of the flux/magic powder from Mexico to the cullet and bag it up.
3. Toss in bags and charge and fine out as usual

I would think that even using only clear glass would still result in a cordy mess since the different clears wouldn't homogenize nicely. But perhaps all the chear they used was from the same bottle factory so same formula? Dunno.

However, people who worked there said that the glass was consistently clear and cord-free, had nice working properties with good fit with commercial color. Tobias, Lino, Karen & Jasen, etc all used it with great results. It sounds unbelievable, but this is what I've heard directly from people who used and melted the stuff. Amazing.

Rich Samuel 11-11-2019 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Rosenbaum (Post 145861)
It's MAGIC!!!!

Or the mescal.

https://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowUser...ml#UR647010799

Pete VanderLaan 11-11-2019 03:20 PM

If, as you say, the bottles are all from the same facility ( Likely in Monterrey where there is a very modern factory for lead glasses), with an addition of flux with a good tank liner, yes, it's quite possible to make the clear workable and cord free.

That is a huge distance from the pictures showing all the cut offs with color attached in North Carolina. That part, I do not believe for an instant. That is just BS. .

David Patchen 11-11-2019 03:30 PM

What I was describing all goes down in the Maldives here:

https://www.soneva.com/soneva-fushi/.../soneva-glass/

Even more unlikely the clear comes from one factory.

John Riepma 11-11-2019 03:42 PM

The part that I found to be the most interesting was that the world is running out of silica and that it only comes from special beaches with a high percentage of silica in their sand. (NOT Short Mountain, that must be a diversionary ruse) I had read many years ago that the earth was 28% or so silica, so I looked it up again today and it's *still* listed as 28%.

This has to mean that for the percentage to remain the same over the past years that the world is getting smaller, which I've also heard.

The percentage of unobtanium will undoubtedly start going down though, once this catches on.

The interwebs is such a great place to get the information stuff. We're living in interesting times.

Pete VanderLaan 11-11-2019 05:22 PM

I think one of the obtuse portions of the article is exactly what you refer to.

All the glass is a 96 COE although all bottle glass is 83-85. The range on the bottles is accurate. The other? Pure BS. Sand is about 85% from nice beaches? Where could that come from?

As is frequently the situation with news, there's a shred of truth to the dramatic stuff that plays well. The reality is rather different.

How could one additive make everything mysteriously a 96 regardless of percentages? I had usually run with the number 95% for the silica. If John is right, I'm off. It is true that clean silica is being used in exorbitant quantities in fracking.

Rich Simmons 11-11-2019 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Patchen (Post 145868)
Just talked to a former user of the magic powder. Here's what I learned:

I would think that even using only clear glass would still result in a cordy mess since the different clears wouldn't homogenize nicely. But perhaps all the chear they used was from the same bottle factory so same formula? Dunno.

Hmm.
My old professor Cliff Sowder would disagree with you. Speaking from experience, as opposed to just conjecture. I've busted up plenty of beer, mayo, etc and never saw a cord. And, I must say Cliff made some of the best Carribean Blue I've ever seen. Yes, out of all sorts of bottles. Was this a panacea for perfect 96 with any glass, absolutely not but it is amazing what you can do. This was back in the late 70's too.

I've made a lot with this type of glass, done right, it's nice. The knowledge of how to manipulate the material is the trick, Patented Magic formula, Meh.

Josh Bernbaum 11-11-2019 07:56 PM

I'd pay top dollar for this mysterious pixie dust if I could sprinkle it on all of my color melts and have them magically fit my clear every time. Top dollar..

Eben Horton 11-11-2019 09:50 PM

You would think that if this studio owner has the ďwokeĒ reasoning to conserve silica due to a world silica shortage that they would just shut their furnace off to prevent adding CO2 to the atmosphere and help prevent climate change.

Sean Jones 11-12-2019 02:18 AM

When you apply for a patent you disclose all the details of the process. Thatís how you protect your invention. So, if itís patented we should be able to find the recipe.

Sky Campbell 11-12-2019 10:51 AM

I have visited the Olio and was as surprised to see that the glass quality seemed to be decent. Rebeccah is very nice and Iím sure she would be happy to answer anyoneís questions. The bottles are saved from the local bars and definitely not all the same. The labor to clean and remove labels would be enough for me to find another source of cullet but they have plenty of free labor through the programs they offer. Iím also in the same thinking snake oil and even if it works for them it doesnít mean it would work for someone else. Obviously glass can be modified to fit but one magic potion wonít fix all glasses. I choose not to spend anytime thinking of the claims of the idea that glass needs to be recycled. It isnít a pollutant in clear form and I always thought the only responsible way to recycle glass is reuse.

Iím curious Is this magic potion available through any US distributors now?

Pete VanderLaan 11-12-2019 11:56 AM

I've been talking to the manufacturers but so far, I would say No.

Melting bottles down is not particulary attractive anymore since there are so many different formulations. Here, it gets crushed and become aggregate for a variety of products. Glass manufacturers do recycle their own cullet from the gob feeders.

Shawn Everette 11-12-2019 02:11 PM

Kugler method? Add lead until it's just compatible enough?

Pete VanderLaan 11-12-2019 04:26 PM

No, lead won't pass muster in US manufacturing. Soda will do but it makes dull glass. Potassium would do better. We'll see what we see.

Eben Horton 11-12-2019 05:54 PM

I tried searching for a patent and found nothing.

Michael Ahlefeldt-Laurvig 11-12-2019 06:10 PM

We have strict mandatory recycling rules in Sweden, metal, paper, plastic and glass, Ive tried to find out about the glass, and its not easy. The answers vary from actually being recycled to new bottles etc to being an additive in asphalt, or being used for making house insulation, although I’m
not entirely convinced

Art Freas 11-12-2019 06:57 PM

Anyone find the patent?

Pete VanderLaan 11-12-2019 07:31 PM

that won't happen and there's nothing to patent.

Jordan Kube 11-12-2019 07:37 PM

This is Christian Thorntan's mix that he uses for his factory down in Mexico. It raises the expansion of container glass to let it work with the commercial color out there and maybe softens up the glass a bit to help the workability. Last I heard he was selling it to people who want to do a similar thing. It's probably not a tough thing to figure out on your own if one was interested. It's not rocket science people.

He was scheduled to give a talk at the San Jose GAS conference but wasn't able to make it but one of engineers came and gave an excellent presentation on what they are doing on the energy efficiency front. I would have to say from the looks of it he's probably doing more with that kind of thing than anyone else right now.

Shawn Everette 11-12-2019 07:42 PM

Ditto. Did find an interesting one about a 3d print extruder.

To Pete: just cause it's "patent pending" doesn't mean it's above the radar. Not sure the ****s the epa gives in MA. Plus these guys have already claimed we're running out of silica.

Pete VanderLaan 11-13-2019 07:27 AM

The first time I softened plate glass with soda was with John Bingham in Santa Fe in 1972. John wanted to do his BA Thesis there and found that the Kugler rod he had brought did not fit the plate glass in any way. So, we added soda at the time and softened it quite a bit with the benefit that the kugler we had fit the plate finally. John had brought a mess of it in from Orrefors and it was the first time I ever saw it used.

Adding stuff to cullet is not rocket science as Jordan says, it's been done for years but you have to appreciate people trying to make a buck off of it. If the cullet is clean, it can be melted. John did Mayonaisse bottles in Boulder for years. It was just really short and had bad luster which is the same issue today. Once John came and used my formulas later on, he never wanted to go back having seen what kind of polish could be achieved. I think if you added three pounds of soda ash to every 100lbs of cullet, it would bring it right up. Three pounds of Potash would make it look nicer but would not affect the expansion as much. I think adding a bit of barium would help brightness. Suggesting that the mix automatically makes a 96 is just ignorance at work or a bad summation of a reporter's notes.

The thing that sort of concerns me at this point is the cost of the test tooling. My Strainoptics polarimeter was $2,000 dollars back in 2001. Now Strainoptics will just rent you the tool for $1,500 dollars for two weeks. My Chipmunk crusher is now over $7,000 dollars. I don't know how small shops can really afford to do any quality testing at this point.

Shawn Everette 11-13-2019 09:52 AM

I've seen the leisures reporters will take with the information given, but it starts somewhere and there seems to be a fair amount of detail from the source. I have no doubts you can make a better glass with additives, but as you elude, expecting any kind of consistency with continuously shifting variables is a fools errand.

Do you think the rising testing costs might be a result of standardization in the general market, and such needs becoming boutique?

Pete VanderLaan 11-13-2019 10:51 AM

well, I think that people may want to know what their materials are actually doing, but they certainly don't want to pay for the knowledge. That's where if I give away a formula, that's great but if I have the audacity to suggest the information was won the hard way and there should be compensation, the interest absolutely drops dead.

I view free information as having no value when it comes to being actionable. If you pay to get it, one tends to pay attention. When they fly me to Shanghai, they really do listen.

It is the case I'm sure that buying a strainoptics unit is pretty far down the wishlist. I have to wonder how far down a copy of GlassnotesIV will become as it becomes harder to find. It won't take much to really create an ignorant audience. As I said, Croucher is retired, Mark is 81, I'm getting along to retirement, Wooley is totally gone.

That article is really irritating in that it throws around some real numbers making one think it has substance and then says stupid stuff like the world is running out of beaches ( which are largely calcium carb) in the carribbean. Our silica doesn't come from beaches. What it does is to offer up the panacea that isotoner additives will make everything great so buy it. There are charlatans all over trying to get your dollars. I do think that soda ash can be added to bottle cullet and that things can be made with it.

Shawn Everette 11-13-2019 01:54 PM

I don't know that I can truly believe that a monetary requirement makes information actionable, you've met college students. I'm also highly dubious that the quality of higher education has risen proportionally to costs.

One of the things that I think has changed is access to free information, for better or worse. While there has always been a plethora of bad free information, you generically had to know someone to have access to it prior to the internet. Now you just fire up youtube. For people that liked actual research that pitfall can mostly be avoided with due diligence, and the wealth of good information more than makes up for the bad. For the post internet crop, I question if they'll be capable of such distinctions.

Maybe I'm just getting old. I should be closing on a house in a couple weeks, can finally have a lawn to tell those damn kids to get off of.

Art Freas 11-13-2019 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete VanderLaan (Post 145887)
that won't happen and there's nothing to patent.

I get that, just wondering if he did manage to get a patent somewhere since he claims a patent. Being in the IT industry I have seen some really ridiculous patents.

Pete VanderLaan 11-13-2019 05:24 PM

If the patent said what people are claiming , it would say

Add: to ten lbs of cullet
1.5 lbs of soda ash, .25 lbs barium carb
mix well.
melt at 2325F.
Results may vary


Great patent.

Art Freas 11-13-2019 07:30 PM

Remember, MacAfee got a patent for logging in over the internet at one point before it was overturned years later, nothing would surprise me.

Jordan Kube 11-13-2019 10:31 PM

Add $1000 and that's the price of the polarimeter today. After using one for so long I wouldn't want to make color without it.

Pete VanderLaan 11-14-2019 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jordan Kube (Post 145906)
Add $1000 and that's the price of the polarimeter today. After using one for so long I wouldn't want to make color without it.

****
It's just not a complex machine but it is accurate and well made. That being said, why it would go up $1,000 isn't reflected in new features. I would assume that they don't sell many at all and that reflects the pricing. Renting it out says a lot about demand as well.

I think you could just sell video of people whistling by graveyards that would be more popular.

Rick Kellner 11-14-2019 11:41 AM

Are you using a standard PS-100 polarimeter, or do you have a bunch of specialized optional accessories to enhance the utility of the device?

Pete VanderLaan 11-14-2019 12:52 PM

It includes a senermont analyzer but no other attachments. I can't see any obvious need for others but I would not want to be without this attachment.
Testing is such a strange pursuit. I don't really think all that many studios even have decent sized diamond saws and that makes ring testing hard. Clearly, dilatometers are close to non existent. I don't sense much interest in testing anyways. The number of people making color is small. I think the real mismatch problem is really with the cullets available and in my mind that should simply not be happening, but it is. Making your glass a 96 is not hard.


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