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-   -   cullet shortage (http://talk.craftweb.com/showthread.php?t=11849)

Pete VanderLaan 03-29-2019 07:53 PM

I recall demand as 11 tons a week. that may be low.
And no I don't think Parriot's stuff is the Kugler. Nor Do I think meeting demand is any easy trick at all. As Cristalica found up, increasing the furnace output has results one may not like. That will be the measuring stick in the next year.

Dan Fenton: "Glass remembers everything you ever do to it."
Bingo. RIP Dan.

Greg Vriethoff 04-01-2019 11:33 PM

Unhappy Campers Already
 
2 Attachment(s)
Just ran across this on social media (Glassies). Guess one of the "beta testers" is having issues.
Attachment 5667
Attachment 5668

Shawn Everette 04-02-2019 08:45 AM

So avoid like the plague. Got it!

Pete VanderLaan 04-02-2019 09:38 AM

There are factors to consider. First, It's a dragon 60lb unit and it has no flue. I'm not sure why that was the considered design but it could account for crud backing up in the chamber.
Now that being said, it's ostensibly a cullet, not a batch and it's hard to conceive of a cullet giving up that much junk. I think it possible that if is as dusty as it appears to be, that the dust could be contributing to the issue. I'd like to know what the appearance around the door of the furnace is. Does it have that tell tale yellow stain at the one o'clock position?

Shawn Everette 04-22-2019 01:29 PM

If anybody's looking to buy I just saw supersacks listed on D&L, $1.27 and drop ship. Last I czeched olympic didn't have it on their docket yet.

Pete VanderLaan 04-23-2019 08:35 AM

I saw some snippets on Glassies regarding the new Czech bobbles yesterday as something people were trying out and liked but I didn't run it down.

There's nothing attractive to me about those flakes at all.

Shawn Everette 04-23-2019 09:51 AM

If you're treating the glass so poorly that you basically have to treat it like batch, what's the point of getting cullet? I've used cutoffs before (not my call), and there is no advantage other than off setting yield loss.

Pete VanderLaan 04-23-2019 10:51 AM

Cullet shortens melt sessions and it's far easier to top a pot off with cullet and to not have to consider volition loss. Then you can start in on the downsides of cullet but from my chair, I don't see people actually caring about glass quality at all. That's disheartening.

I want my glass right, seed free, high luster taking color really well. I'm in a minority it seems. This cullet war will not serve people well. Who has the capacity to deal with a 2000lb supersack? Who wants candy bar cullet that will explode in the pot? Who wants dirty Grade B cullet from Cristallica? Parriot will probably have a good product. He's a smart guy but I doubt the ability to meet demand. 11 tons a week is a lot of glass and I think that's about what the US demand is.

And this doesn't address mismatch at all.

Shawn Everette 04-23-2019 11:36 AM

True, it does flatten faster, but all of the cutoffs need to be taken to full charge temp to fine out. The at gather temp charge was what I saw as the main advantage of the A grade nuggets and bird droppings. It was slow, but tanks stayed fresher longer, and I wasn't beating the hell out of my furnace.

I'm in line for the Parriot, and can buy volume, so I hope to stay ahead of the supply curve. As long as it's cleaner with the off gassing than the original cristallica I should be happy.

Pete VanderLaan 04-23-2019 12:08 PM

waht will it cost. I assume about .12lb to ship it. What kind of volume and when?

Shawn Everette 04-23-2019 12:58 PM

We're looking at $1.40, shipping was $.115 last time I got anything. Still looking at at least a month out for the bags, cristallica 3+.

Pete VanderLaan 04-23-2019 01:37 PM

Nobody is making any money at all at that price. I view that as bad.

Franklin Sankar 04-25-2019 05:09 AM

What do you mean by........all of the cutoffs need to be taken to full charge temp to fine out. ???
Franklin

Pete VanderLaan 04-25-2019 06:57 AM

the bubbles don't come out easily unless you go to batch temps.

Shawn Everette 04-25-2019 09:50 AM

The problem with the cutoffs is that the way they are produced and packaged leaves them covered with a lot of fine particulate and dust, hence the need for batch temperature. Most of the old nuggets from Spectrum and bird droppings from Cristalica were clean enough to not have to change temperature, if you were patent enough. It was generally a good rule to save the last little bit from each bag for the last charge, they were fairly dust free but not perfect. What both companies are delivering now is less than desirable from that perspective.

Franklin Sankar 04-27-2019 11:19 AM

Oh so the cut offs are the cullet and they are dirty.
Thanks
Franklin

Pete VanderLaan 04-27-2019 01:43 PM

dirt and dust are major problems on cullet. You can spend days trying to get glass dust to go into solution without gas.

Shawn Everette 04-27-2019 02:28 PM

The cutoffs are "cullet" in the traditional sense, that it is preformed glass that is being essentially recycled; much like the old days of using factory marbles or phillips glass. In those cases you would take it to full charge temp, either by itself or mixed in with batch. It's not the more modern vernacular that would be a partially made virgin glass that was designed to go into its first full melt.

One of the main problems with the original cutoffs and I believe the first version of Studio Nuggets and possible this new stuff, was that it was formulated to be fusing glass first, and then just advertised to glassblowers. This is what was causing much of the off gassing and corrosion troubles that was dealt with in the "new formula" and "premium" nuggets.

Cristalica has some of the same issues despite being designed as a blowing glass, but was shipped much cleaner so you could charge lower. Spruce cullet had major production flaws that led to it's early abandonment. Off the line Bomma looks gorgeous, but we'll see if it can keep pace.

Pete VanderLaan 04-27-2019 03:54 PM

My impression with the Spectrum cullets is a bit different. I feel strongly that it never really completed the melt cycle before being pulled from the tank. It appeared mostly melted but was still in an outgassing mode. The boron in that instance was quite active and went after any fireclays or alumina parts.

Boron by itself is not a monster but if you couple it up with barium it can really cause issues. American refractories of typical composition from 76-90 percent alumina are pretty receptive to degradation. The 76 composition is typical of a mullite mix and the 90% is typical of several crucible manufacturers.

But because it processed out of the furnace prior to true fining, it indeed saved money but the chemical reaction resumed once the stuff was melted a second time. The Flake, which Oceanside is currently offering up is stuff I suspect to have boron present. Cristalica has the issue of containing both Boron and barium. They said they had lowered the boron content but all along their literature indicated the amount to be constant. The real problem there, as I see it is trying to ram 7 tons a day through a system designed to process five. Grade B indeed. Whether any of these companies can meet volume demand will be the big issue.

Shawn Everette 04-27-2019 05:00 PM

I actually agree about the Spectrum melt, I'd say about 90% cooked before it was shipped. You could tell easily by comparing the nuggets to the bird droppings, tonnes of bubbles against something relatively water clear. There was also a handling issue with the nuggets. Not sure what kind of juggernaut packaging system they were using, but they usually came out of the bag in rough shape. Although that looked like it was cared for like a new born against the "flake" or the cutoffs.

Chem wise I'm not as nuanced, but there was a major difference switching from 2.0 to cristalica. I had a girder above my flue that collected but a dusting of Boron over 3 years from the Premium. There was 3x6" cake built up after 6 months of cristalica. I was actually surprised by how uniform that stalactite formed, didn't get a chance to preserve it before it fell.

System's and spruce's original follies seemed to be quality over quantity then flipping the script. Cristalica seems to be following suit. I'd wish one of the window plate companies would get in the game, the quality and quantity a single factory is able to process in a day would meet US demand for a year. Maybe not quite that fast, but those behemoths are a sight to behold.

Pete VanderLaan 04-27-2019 06:28 PM

I'll freely admit to being the one who brought Cristalica into the US. I invested in it. After getting the early test materials here, I was discouraged by the melt results. I told Andreea, who won't comment any more here about the boron issue. I offered to do a re-write and was turned down which did not surprise me. They had their money in Peter Kuchinke who then had this remarkable come to Jesus moment a few months back. He bailed in a humiliating public way. I had pulled my investment out of Cristailica about a year earlier and things turned to shit really fast.

Now, I suspect that the increase in output pushed in Dobern had an effect on the output snips and they weren't pretty. The dirt? I don't know but I do know that furnaces of the type are ingenues. Treat them right or they shit the bed.

Pete VanderLaan 04-27-2019 06:31 PM

I'd wish one of the window plate companies would get in the game
[/quote]

**************

Not at $1.41 per lb.

Shawn Everette 04-27-2019 10:08 PM

For what we expect for quality 1.40 is a fortune

Pete VanderLaan 04-28-2019 07:42 AM

No, for what you "Accept" for quality.

Shawn Everette 04-28-2019 08:41 AM

True, society has lowered my standards of acceptance. Sometimes you take what you can get.

Pete VanderLaan 04-28-2019 09:28 AM

It's a forced acceptance unless one wants to either make their own glass or to use another commercial batch glass which requires concerted effort on the part of the facility. Having been down this shortage crisis road more than a few times and having limited volume needs, I get to use my own stuff. Often, it is admittedly a nuisance bu given the freedom of coloring it, I'll go this way everytime.
But until one cullet shows up that delivers a reasonable quality as well as supply capacity, this will continue to be a crapshoot with work stoppages. Parriot's stuff seems to bear promise right now but then again, few have tried it and supply hasn't really been stress tested. . We thought Cristalica would fill that role and it has failed as has Kugler apparently in terms of acceptance. Even so, if anyone wanted to actually make a decent clear glass in the USA, it would be a no brainer. Fundamentally importing clear cullet from Europe is nuts.

You would think someone would objectively field test this stuff and adapt based on the feedback. Right now? Eat your vegetables.

Shawn Everette 04-29-2019 09:18 AM

Yeah, no options state side anymore seems quite odd. Importing from Mexico is bad enough, but shipping it across an ocean is indeed kind of insane. Spruce mixes great glass, but I didn't have confidence that they would have the infrastructure to maintain a cullet operation. System seemed to be starting to function properly before it went tits up. The formula changes gave the appearance of adaptation, but the roll out could have been managed better. While the dust would vary batch to batch, I never really had any problems with any of it.

Turbulent grad school experiences forced me to be flexible with the glass I'm using. I'm happy as long as it's relatively cord free and fits the standard colors. I pull cane as I need it, so I'm not beholden to what's a few decades old. "Intelligence is the ability to adapt to change".

Art Freas 05-03-2019 11:41 AM

On the Oceanside

My matrix on it would be

If the oceanside is like
Original System 96 Studio - OK but to short and too much borax and all the yellow crap.

New System 96 Studio - Would be fine with this longer that the original system 96 but not too long for production.

Premium nuggets - No way the original premium had lots of problems.

Premium 2.0 - Could live with it, nice and long for one offs a bit long for production.

Shawn Everette 05-03-2019 03:11 PM

That's about my take on it too. Judging only by the off gassing alone the new Oceanside is either just their sheet formula or the original Studio, and I'd prefer not to cook any of it.

I didn't really run into issues with either Premium nor the New Formula Studio, but judging by how long it took to get the Flake, I'm not planning on waiting it out for something better.

D&L is the only US distributor for the flake right now. While I've had great experiences with them, they're primarily a wholesaler with steep demands. That will be problematic for any small scale buyers.

tomak baksik 05-06-2019 04:49 PM

glasma
 
1 Attachment(s)
Hi, I have have older pic of glasma bag, this may help:

tomak baksik 05-06-2019 04:51 PM

1 Attachment(s)
attached .

Pete VanderLaan 05-06-2019 06:32 PM

candidly, those are terrible numbers. Silica less than 65%? Potassium, less than 20%? One would hope so on one and expect bad results with the other. It doesn't even consider the other profoundly vague percent in that screen shot.

It doesn't appear to note which glass it is.

John Riepma 05-07-2019 05:32 PM

But if they're all at or near the max it shows that they are giving the customer 125%

Or less.

This must be for those occasions when just giving less than 110% is no longer enough.

Which is what we've all grown used to.

Tom Fuhrman 05-10-2019 04:34 PM

It appears that Booma is affiliated or owned by Bohemia Machine. If that is the case, Bohemia Machine has had a lot of experience making equipment for the glass industry including automatic cutting machines. They have made equipment for many glass factories. If this is in fact true, I suspect that they can be capable of producing some decent cullet if they actually find it to be a profitable venture.
It appears they may have some financial interests from Otakar Motka who has a large group of companies he owns including the producer of Simax borosilicate glass that according to their website has the capability to melt 200 tons per day. It will b e interesting to see how this all develops.

Pete VanderLaan 05-10-2019 05:22 PM

Thanks Tom, that's very helpful. I think that your observation about "If they can make money at it" to be the key. In my mind, knowing the cost of shipping the Cristallica to N.Carolina and the subsequent costs distributing, $1.41 has me substantially less than impressed. I see money being churned here. I do think that a battle for dominance will happen in this first year. So far, this is the apparent nice goop on the block. It may be the case that Oceanside just sticks to the fusers. Who do I see screwed? Cristallica. If these guys are smart, they'll move on the european market as well.

As to the Boro, I don't find it relevant at this point. While Boro is being made, the daily demand for boro cullet is pretty small. Abe has Gaffer making some boro cullet for them. The other small makers aren't going to benefit from any of that.

That's as I see it today. Now we need the jury to report back on the caustic nature of Charlie's goop. I hope it works. This has certainly been a Keystone Cops kind of approach.

Sky Campbell 05-10-2019 09:26 PM

Not that it's really relevant but when they draw borosilicate tubing for scientific use the tolerances are small. They cull a tremendous amount of out of tolence glass that is either remelted or sold on the secondary market for cheap. I'm going to guess gaffer is the only ones making borosilicate cullet intentionally.

Dennis Walker 07-03-2019 02:50 PM

Olympic taking orders for Oceanside Nuggets
 
Just got a email from Olympic announcing Ocean Side Nuggets 55# bags 40 to a pallet in stock and ready so ship from Seattle. $1.50 a lb before shipping.

Shawn Everette 07-03-2019 02:57 PM

Ouch, that's more than the bomma.

Pete VanderLaan 07-03-2019 05:48 PM

Keep fantasizing. It really has to hit $1.65 before money is made by the producers. Look at raw cost. Look at process costs. Look at shipping. look at distributor costs.
The only way prices stay down at all is if the distributor calculates tha selling under costs makes the distributor sell ancillary stuff at a better profit. That's been a model in the Northwest for years.

Where people have to step back is to look at how many dollars are getting tied up in a single piece. The higher price for the finished piece, the less it matters. On little stuff, it's a major problem.

Shawn Everette 07-07-2019 10:50 AM

I can't understand why spectrum got into the cullet game if they were't making any money. Ancillary wise they were never a major player in the hot color game. If there is any kind of issue with the new no boric oceanside and the general color manufacturers, then it is bound to be dead in the water.


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