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-   -   cullet shortage (http://talk.craftweb.com/showthread.php?t=11849)

Pete VanderLaan 07-07-2019 12:07 PM

Spectrum was owned in part by Dale's cousin. It had made sheet glass for windows in uninspired colors for a long time and that business collapsed in 2008 essentially.

I can't recall when Spectrum started making cullet and it's hard to say what influenced them beyond excess capacity. It could have been Dale encouraging them since prior to that Pilchuck used Northwest Glass as a primary cullet supply and it was dreary as a glass even with boatloads of soda dumped into it. In the final game, the real estate was worth far more than the meager profit it offered and those furnaces are not cheap yet all needed to go.

When I was there, Pilchuck was using about 3,000 lbs a week and that was well before the surge into glass from the '80's. Close shipping was indeed an issue. Being able to drive down to Seattle from Stanwood saved a lot of cash.

It will be interesting to see how the Oceanside does in the market. I don't see what you replace boron with unless it's fluorine or lithium and lithium is a financial rollercoaster. Fluorine, well, it justs eats your tooling.

I expect a lot of shaking out in the next 18 months. If it's fluorine, the kiln crowd will really hate it. Goodbye elements.

Shawn Everette 07-07-2019 04:53 PM

Nepotism creates strange bedfellows.

I'm thinking it was the early '10s that they started doing the cullet. I was getting supersacs of the the cutoffs in late '09, and tried the nuggets for casting projects in '10. By mid '13 they transitioned to the 2.0 and everyone went henny penny. Know the last time I was at chuck in '12 they were using Spruce.

Pete VanderLaan 07-07-2019 06:10 PM

I knew they were using SP87 for some time. I didn't know the timing. It was really slow.

Greg Vriethoff 10-27-2019 06:32 PM

Cristallicka
 
1 Attachment(s)
Anyone else find screws in they're cristallica?

I always count my loose skrews b4 i charge.

Attachment 5803

Shawn Everette 10-28-2019 09:51 AM

Yikes. Metric or standard? Too many loose screws to count on my end.

Pete VanderLaan 10-28-2019 10:23 AM

You use flathead star drive short screws, for what?

The last time I saw anything remotely like this was when the batch mixer at Spruce Pine was coming apart. There were bolts in the batch bags. That was 30 years ago.

Shawn Everette 10-28-2019 10:34 AM

Looks more like an allen drive to me. Fine thread of course. Maybe 1/4-24 or 5-0.8.

Pete VanderLaan 10-28-2019 11:18 AM

maybe metric allen...

Sky Campbell 10-28-2019 11:21 AM

I use 8/32 and 10/32 allen drives just like that to hold short pieces of copper on the end of machined blowpipes. The black oxide really holds up well. A little foreign material in the furnace used to be expected when we used to melt all that left over color cullet from gabbert. Iíve seen much stranger worse things. Itís hardly worth the attention itís getting.

Shawn Everette 10-28-2019 12:14 PM

If I'm giving you $15k+ a year I better not be getting screws in my glass. It's not exactly the prize in the cereal box.

Greg Vriethoff 10-28-2019 12:45 PM

Just did screen grab off of social media. Not me.

Someone in the food chain isn't practicing good shop hygiene. Just thought I'd throw it out here to see if anyone else has run into foreign matter in bags. Operator error has to be ruled out before blaming the manufacturer.

Greg Vriethoff 10-28-2019 12:50 PM

If it was me I would just assume it was my fault and be more careful moving forward. Could easily be the hired help. I cringe when I think back to how I was dropping charges when I was first learning the ropes. I know people have found even worse things in the bottom of their furnaces.

Pete VanderLaan 10-28-2019 01:34 PM

my favorite was the remains of a fero at the bottom of the tank at pilchuck.
We called it Bethlehem Green.

Greg Vriethoff 10-28-2019 01:58 PM

Mmmm... That's Good Inclusion!
 
1 Attachment(s)
Paperweights for gear heads?

Attachment 5804

Shawn Everette 10-28-2019 03:01 PM

If you used copper you might be able to manage something interesting, and not explosive.

If your practice is cullet in a trough straight out of the bag, user error should be at a minimum. A trash can full of batch being shoveled in is going to invite more.

Shortly before my time at another studio a "paperclip" from a binder bore its way though a crucible. They somehow managed to claim insurance from it. Still under speculation if the former director did it on purpose. Wouldn't put it past them. Camera system soon followed.

Greg Vriethoff 10-28-2019 03:16 PM

Several users are commenting they are experiencing loose hardware in bags (boxes?). Second pic is a different user than first pic.

The two that sounded more alarming to me are the ones reporting metal shavings. Little harder to pick out.

Pete VanderLaan 10-28-2019 03:17 PM

I have been asked on more than one occasion to evaluate an insurance claim on a pot.

It's like putting bees in their heads.

Pete VanderLaan 10-28-2019 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Vriethoff (Post 145739)
Several users are commenting they are experiencing loose hardware in bags (boxes?). Second pic is a different user than first pic.

The two that sounded more alarming to me are the ones reporting metal shavings. Little harder to pick out.

****
That's a serious charge. When Dobern pushed their production up by about 35% it made maintenance impossible.

Shawn Everette 10-28-2019 03:26 PM

I've been fortunate to not have had much of any issue with cullet, even when I was forced to buy the system "seconds". A trashcan full of batch seems to be fair game for anyone. Students, or the public, pay little mind to what is actually in a can.

Shawn Everette 10-28-2019 03:29 PM

I can only imagine the amusement. "So let me get this straight, you have a 2000* pot in your garage?"

Pete VanderLaan 10-28-2019 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shawn Everette (Post 145743)
I've been fortunate to not have had much of any issue with cullet, even when I was forced to buy the system "seconds". A trashcan full of batch seems to be fair game for anyone. Students, or the public, pay little mind to what is actually in a can.

*****
I'm coming from an entirely different place. I want to see quality glass made for artists who will produce work that can be admitted to the Corning museum as representative of a point in time wher glass is being used to make impeccably crafted exploratory things that can be placed in an environment which celebrates 4500 years of curiosity and quality. There are about 1500 different individuals in that span. It's damn small.

Be one of them.

Pete VanderLaan 10-28-2019 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shawn Everette (Post 145744)
I can only imagine the amusement. "So let me get this straight, you have a 2000* pot in your garage?"

***
I've been asked by a court of law to explain how a pot might have leaked, and then stopped leaking.

In my world, they don't do that.

Shawn Everette 10-29-2019 08:29 AM

I've learned long ago to make what I want with what I have available. Sometimes quality is more than materials.

Pete VanderLaan 10-29-2019 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shawn Everette (Post 145752)
I've learned long ago to make what I want with what I have available. Sometimes quality is more than materials.

****
I certainly agree with that but from what I normally see, great glass quality often supports great designs. On the other hand, too many people treat their primary material like it was dogshit. Serious collections want to see serious quality. They get really fussy.

Mark Rosenbaum 10-29-2019 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete VanderLaan (Post 145753)
****
Serious collections want to see serious quality. They get really fussy.

Serious collectors/collections are few and far between. To make a living in this field, you need to make work that has more mass appeal. I try to make the best work that I can with the variables that I am given. If it is cullet instead of batch, or bought color instead of home-made, then that is what I will do to keep my business running at a profit. It is my business model and may not be the same for everyone, but it has served me well for the last 35 years...

Shawn Everette 10-29-2019 12:12 PM

I haven't really come across a collector, or glass that's been a contender for collection, where glass quality has been that much of an issue. If we're talking about some of what makes it into new glass review, then I know what you're talking about.

I've learned long ago that the best trait in an artist is adaptability, keeps you from getting stale. I'll never forget the GAS speech from Bertil, where he talked about his assistant totally funking up his tank with too much cobalt, and instead of tossing it out he made an entirely new body of work. Sometimes attempting perfection makes you boring, and insane. It's glass man, you gotta go with the flow.

Pete VanderLaan 10-29-2019 01:06 PM

and I spent the bulk of my career dealing with people who simply were not going to purchase a piece with a bubble in it. At the prices asked, with all those zeros before the decimal, absolutely clean materials were expected. That was true of tank glass as well as optical laminations.

I recall glassblowers having absolute shitfits over imperfections in their colors.
Now? Just use frit and shards.

The market has indeed changed. Glass is quite common now and at one time that was not the case. I am glad to no longer be trying to sell glass.

Larry Cazes 10-29-2019 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shawn Everette (Post 145755)
I haven't really come across a collector, or glass that's been a contender for collection, where glass quality has been that much of an issue. If we're talking about some of what makes it into new glass review, then I know what you're talking about.

I've learned long ago that the best trait in an artist is adaptability, keeps you from getting stale. I'll never forget the GAS speech from Bertil, where he talked about his assistant totally funking up his tank with too much cobalt, and instead of tossing it out he made an entirely new body of work. Sometimes attempting perfection makes you boring, and insane. It's glass man, you gotta go with the flow.

New Glass is far from about the glass

Shawn Everette 10-30-2019 02:16 PM

That was my tongue in cheek jab at the publication.

Shawn Everette 10-30-2019 02:26 PM

Oh I understand that, I also know that I came into my own when collectors were jumping ship to protect their portfolios. Execution and craftsmanship are paramount, but on the sliding scale I'll take interesting over perfect any day. I'll also prefer the Getty over Corning.

I get way more joy out of making objects that people enjoy, rather than trying to appease glassblowers and collectors. The type of feedback you get from outside the echo chamber I also find more useful.

Larry Cazes 10-30-2019 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shawn Everette (Post 145760)
That was my tongue in cheek jab at the publication.

I assumed so. I was serious as well.

Shawn Everette 10-30-2019 06:05 PM

The problem that I've generally had was that while they're accepting of things that challenge the "tradition" glass, they're not really doing it objectively through an artistic lens. Had it not been done before? Sure, still doesn't mean it was done well. I disdain screen grabs from a "performance". Performance art, theater no one is willing to pay a ticket for.

Greg Vriethoff 10-31-2019 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shawn Everette (Post 145763)
...no one is willing to pay a ticket for.

Does payment validate it as a "work of art?"

Greg Vriethoff 10-31-2019 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shawn Everette (Post 145761)
I'll also prefer the Getty over Corning.

^^^^^^
Why?

Pete VanderLaan 11-01-2019 07:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Vriethoff (Post 145765)
Does payment validate it as a "work of art?"


****
Like Banksy?

Larry Cazes 11-01-2019 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Vriethoff (Post 145765)
Does payment validate it as a "work of art?"

Of course not.

Pete VanderLaan 11-02-2019 10:22 AM

See Thomas Kincaide, Lord of Light...

I think a more insightful way to look at it is Why do we use glass as a medium. Some incorporate it in their work as a component and don't necessarily work with glass all that frequently. Many of us use it exclusively and call ourselves "glass Artists" which I have long thought to be odd. I don't know any Bronze Artists or Marble artists so why is that so commonly stated. If it's the case that it is kind of hard to make things out of glass then I guess I would say I worked in glass and let someone else annoint me. I could say I was an artist and I think that's sufficient but to be a "Glass Artist" is somehow supposed to do, what? Time there was when it was really rare but not now.

As to art, I haven't a clue. It's been an argument forever I think but for the most part it's an exclusionary stance. "I am one, you're a craftsman, you scum." Ferd had it down. You were never going to be shown at Habitat if you did ACE shows. Never. Marvin said that if you had shelves in your "Gallery" you were really just a shop. All exclusionary. Dale understood that the pond of qualified customers for Art was actually pretty small and that if other mediums managed to keep glass qualified as a craft that it was going to restrict his splashas well as his sales. They understood that the annointed wanted to keep those sales to themselves. They did fight it but to his great credit, he was the toe in the door. He'll never have a show at the MOMA. They on the other hand are smarter than that.

Greg Vriethoff 11-02-2019 01:53 PM

Something I have found annoying over the years is people that spend a ton of energy promoting themselves as a "glass artist" only to be frustrated when people don't view them as just an "artist." You pigeonholed yourself. When my mother-in-law insisted on designing business cards for me (she does it professionally, and is a really good graphic designer for being self-taught) she asked me "don't you want it to say 'Glass Artist' under your name?" I said to just leave it blank. She was very puzzled by my response.

On the other hand I'm reminded of a story John Leighton once told. He was working on a series that were made using sand cast bronze and black glass. A gallery owner saw them and wanted him to get in touch. During the phone call it came out that he mainly worked in glass. The response was something to the effect of "sorry, we don't deal in glass art."

So, there's "blame" to go around on both sides.

Dale is no Peter Voulkos.

I'm only one voice, and I can only speak of my own experience. I've never looked down my nose at anyone's craft practice. I have, however, been on the receiving end of vitriol from people that staunchly identify as "craftsman/woman/person/whatever." I don't know. Maybe they've had to put up with a lot of shit about it.

Yes, I believe there's a difference between art and craft. I don't want to argue about it. It's tired. The only time I address it is in my Art Appreciation classes. It's not a hill I'm willing to die on.

One of my favorite quotes of late on the subject comes from Chris Burden (RIP). During an interview about a recent work he was asked "but is it art?" His response was "Well, it's art if someone says it is. The real question is whether or not it's any good."

Barb Sanderson 11-02-2019 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete VanderLaan (Post 145746)
***
I've been asked by a court of law to explain how a pot might have leaked, and then stopped leaking.

In my world, they don't do that.

Yeah just one of the impossible claims from thieves....
Barb

Eben Horton 11-02-2019 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barb Sanderson (Post 145772)
Yeah just one of the impossible claims from thieves....
Barb

Do you have closure on that fiasco yet?


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