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Michael Ahlefeldt-Laurvig 11-15-2019 09:18 PM

Shawn-subjective no, a few expermenting americans cant outdo the Swedish Glass Research Institute or the German glass tradition

Pete VanderLaan 11-16-2019 07:21 AM

It was happening for a full ten years in this country prior to the importing of German color rods. Rod came in to Bendheim around 1973 and was pushed by RISD professor Chihuly. Prior to that, if you saw the school catalog the prior year, it had barrels of Soda ash, Potash and Lime on the cover. Dudley Giberson was making fluorine opaques in New Hampshire in 1970. Color was being made from raw glasses at Penland but the early work was limited for cad sel type colors. Silver was being actively worked. Frank Kulaschewitz published formulas using lead in 1974.

It expanded rapidly. I first saw Kugler in 1972 or 3 brought in by John Bingham but I was already running a two pot color furnace. Kugler certainly caught on, yet I have always viewed it as a mortal blow to innovation work in this country. "Glass from a toothpaste Tube" as Karl Platt put it. The stupid part about it was failing to go directly to Blenko and Fenton, along with the smaller shops in West Virginia where making colored glass was no secret at all.

So, Yeah, it would have been fine. Necessity is the mother of invention and color rods killed that . What's not fine? Bright yellow opaque bowls with chartreuse lip wraps. The Kugler Canary yellow never fit anything.

Pete VanderLaan 11-16-2019 07:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Ahlefeldt-Laurvig (Post 145925)
Shawn-subjective no, a few expermenting americans cant outdo the Swedish Glass Research Institute or the German glass tradition

****
Sure they can. Look at the work Mark Peiser has done with Phosphates. Look at Corning for God's sake.

Pete VanderLaan 11-16-2019 08:09 AM

secret ingredient!
 
Mark spilled the beans! He says the secret ingredient is NaC03!!

I have here a proposed application method.


Take ten lbs of mason jars, mined from the mason mt reserve outside the Anchor Hocking elysian fields of New Jersey . Clean carefully.

TO MAKE A 90 coe, ADD 90 TEASPOONS OF MAGIC POWDER. FOR A 96 coe ADD 96 TEASPOONS OF MAGIC POWDER. FOR A 104, ADD 104 TEASPOONS. On and on. The harder part comes for making a 33 coe. We'll get back to you but, it involves (wink) boron.

Stir and mix well and add to your furnace container, Wait forever.

Michael Ahlefeldt-Laurvig 11-16-2019 11:49 AM

Ok single induviduals, Im talking about the bigger picture, making it possible for small studios to have a palate of hundreds of colors, no one person can do that. Of course the knowkedge is at Corning or the institute , but not one person can accuire that for the glass.yes you can melt a color or two,but its not possible for the small studio to melt hundreds of colors.
My experience is that everyone was very secretive 30 years ago

Larry Cazes 11-16-2019 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Ahlefeldt-Laurvig (Post 145932)
Ok single induviduals, Im talking about the bigger picture, making it possible for small studios to have a palate of hundreds of colors, no one person can do that. Of course the knowkedge is at Corning or the institute , but not one person can accuire that for the glass.yes you can melt a color or two,but its not possible for the small studio to melt hundreds of colors.
My experience is that everyone was very secretive 30 years ago

Not sure I understand why individuals can't melt many colors over an extended period and produce their own bar and frit for use later. Im not suggesting that Im a knowledgeable glass chemist but if theres a will. Im seeing extremely nice color experimentation going on at the university level through friends on social media.

Michael Ahlefeldt-Laurvig 11-16-2019 12:22 PM

Why would you do it? Are they different so you stand out…Id love to see a color Ive never seen

Shawn Everette 11-16-2019 01:01 PM

Um, yes subjective. They're prefect apparently for you, but I've had my fair share of problems with the factory german colors. Kugler and zimm were sometimes a shitshow when it came to compatibility, consistency, and stones. While reichenbach has been generically better, they've still had their faults. Between reichenbach and kugler there is little difference in their respective pallets, you can go number by number down the catalog and get basically the same thing 80% of the time. Then there is the fact that out of those "hundreds", I don't need 12 variations on the same light blue.

Gaffer, aside from being out of stock more regularly; has given me very few compatibility, color consistency, or reduction problems. They also have several colors on their pallet that none of the german ones come close to. Not to mention duro. Or the photo ruby. Or the uranium...

I've had little in the way of issue with the majority of base glasses I've used, and I'm not sure how you are quantifying glasma being better than sp87. The generic us glass problem is cullet companies keeping pace with demand, not the availability of quality batch. Cristalica wasn't anything to brag about once system premium was up and running; and now bomma is delivering something cleaner, longer, and less caustic than both of those ever did.

Going outside of blowing, the casting colors from reichenbach are kind of hot garbage compared to what bullseye and gaffer are offering.

It's all relative to what you are trying to make, and there is no such thing as a "perfect" glass.

Pete VanderLaan 11-16-2019 01:59 PM

I'll make an entirely different case for making your own color, actually several. Color rods are really expensive for what they are 25% is just lead. When gold went shooting up in the late '70's gold rod shot up as well but look at what happened to the gold rod as gold prices came back to earth. It stayed right up there.
But that's not what draws me to my own color. It used to be at every show I did people would come and ask what color rod that piece was and the answer was inevitably that I made it my self. This remains true for marybeth in her work, using my color. People just get pissed that it's not off the shelf so they can't run home and make that stuff.

More importantly is that when you make your own, you can get really excessive with it since it costs less than a buck a pound. Even with gold rod, which cost more, I used to regularly take three gathers from the pot in a single piece before considering the casing. I would try risky stuff that I would not have tried if I was using commercial gold rod. People used to come around the La Cienega shop trying to go through the cullet barrels where we ran fourteen pots. That freedom allowed for stuff to be made I never would have tried and that's my biggest selling point.

But the notion that no studio can make so many colors wasn't the experience I had growing up in glass. We all pretty much had an attitude that we could do most anything. People weren't any more secretive than they are today. We just didn't know as much as we know now.

Lastly, Speed. If you don't have to heat up color, you don't need that assistant and you can make glass in real time. Consistently, shops that make thier own can make about 30% more work in any given time.

Perhaps those great inventive days are gone, I doubt it. There's always some young buck starting off. I just want to see those kids build from a basic foundation in the chemistry before getting totally out over their skies. I still help those that help themselves. Some of us love glass for glasse's sake. Some love the money. I'm lucky to have lived as I did.

Shawn Everette 11-16-2019 06:04 PM

That's totally legit too. More trying to get that the point that the euro glass isn't "perfect" and the end all be all.

Given my predilection towards constant learning and doing things the hard way the only thing that has stopped me from going the homegrow route was having an optimal studio space. There was a bit of time when I had a color pot in grad school and poked around making stuff out of cobalt, magnesium, and copper; but when compatible color cuttoffs were $1 a lb it didn't make a whole lot of sense to put a ton of time into it. The bottle of arsenic that was mixed in with the samples of artificial flavorings also had me on high alert of the precariousness of my predecessor. If osha ever saw that cabinet... Luckily the facility manager and I were on the same page and got anything questionable expunged.

Currently I'm going a different route, acquiring and fabing my machine shop, powder/ceracoat rig, and anodizing station. Love glass for what it does, love my tool toys about as much.

Pete VanderLaan 11-16-2019 06:11 PM

OSHA was well in the mix back in the late '70's with Hugh Jenkins being poisoned in the R.I.T. shop by arsenic. Big game changer. I still don't like to make enamels due to the 6% arsenic content. I well may this year but the furnace will be outside on the tractor forks. Bullseye made it at night.

Michael does not point out what will happen to them as the EU has told Murano that it is no longer acceptable to make them. That should apply to Kugler and Riechenbach as well. What Mark is doing with the non toxic titanium/ phosphates will become far more important and that field testing has moved to Gaffer, not to the Germans.

Saying Euro glass is perfect is profoundly arrogant. There's a million glasses and they all do different stuff.

Michael Ahlefeldt-Laurvig 11-16-2019 06:26 PM

What is Euro glass? Yes Glasma i probably the best glass around, a million glasses?

Shawn Everette 11-16-2019 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Ahlefeldt-Laurvig (Post 145949)
What is Euro glass?

Commercial glass from europe, all encompassing.

[/quote]Yes Glasma i probably the best glass around[/quote]

Based on what parameters that don't also apply to sp87(and variants) and bomma?

On an aside, we need to watch what's going on globally, china's been making strides in the past decade.

Shawn Everette 11-16-2019 07:24 PM

I know they're in the mix, but mostly intervene when something bad happens. Been to plenty of academic studio that had cabinet X. Hear no evil, see no evil, be no evil. Feel lucky to finally be working for a place that values an msds archive and incident reports.

Actually impressed the euro manufacturers haven't come under the clutches of the eu sooner. Surprised they can fart without a license.

Lawrence Duckworth 11-16-2019 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete VanderLaan (Post 145941)
I'll make an entirely different case for making your own color, actually several. Color rods are really expensive for what they are 25% is just lead. When gold went shooting up in the late '70's gold rod shot up as well but look at what happened to the gold rod as gold prices came back to earth. It stayed right up there.
But that's not what draws me to my own color. It used to be at every show I did people would come and ask what color rod that piece was and the answer was inevitably that I made it my self. This remains true for marybeth in her work, using my color. People just get pissed that it's not off the shelf so they can't run home and make that stuff.

More importantly is that when you make your own, you can get really excessive with it since it costs less than a buck a pound. Even with gold rod, which cost more, I used to regularly take three gathers from the pot in a single piece before considering the casing. I would try risky stuff that I would not have tried if I was using commercial gold rod. People used to come around the La Cienega shop trying to go through the cullet barrels where we ran fourteen pots. That freedom allowed for stuff to be made I never would have tried and that's my biggest selling point.

But the notion that no studio can make so many colors wasn't the experience I had growing up in glass. We all pretty much had an attitude that we could do most anything. People weren't any more secretive than they are today. We just didn't know as much as we know now.

Lastly, Speed. If you don't have to heat up color, you don't need that assistant and you can make glass in real time. Consistently, shops that make thier own can make about 30% more work in any given time.

Perhaps those great inventive days are gone, I doubt it. There's always some young buck starting off. I just want to see those kids build from a basic foundation in the chemistry before getting totally out over their skies. I still help those that help themselves. Some of us love glass for glasse's sake. Some love the money. I'm lucky to have lived as I did.


“it costs less than a buck a pound”

Are you saying if I want to learn how I can make any color I want for a buck a pound?

Pete VanderLaan 11-17-2019 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lawrence Duckworth (Post 145954)
“it costs less than a buck a pound”

Are you saying if I want to learn how I can make any color I want for a buck a pound?

****
I think that's reasonable to say. Golds may run higher- two bucks a pound. The learning part is certainly more expensive.

Pete VanderLaan 11-17-2019 10:11 AM

To expand on the cost:

SP87 is about .80lb. The cost of cobalt oxide is about $16.00 per pound.
In 10 pounds of SP87 you'sll get about 8.5 lbs of glass and if you add 3 grams of cobalt oxide to that, you'll get an intense blue that can be cased in clear.
One lb is 454 grams. 3 grams is about 1/ 150th of a pound or around .10 per gram. Those are rough numbers. The point there is that the material costs on the colored glass are under a buck a pound and it includes the cost of the clear which you would have paid for anyways. Similar stuff can be done with copper oxide, making a very nice turquoise blue, manganese makes an OK purple. These are all simple colors but if you looked at copper rubies and silver opals , they can be made using SP color base a, bit of black tin, some zinc and some copper or silver , all quite reasonably.
Some coloring is indeed touchy. Cadmium selenium colors need good vents, gold does need some lead. Fluorines are caustic but also very manageable. You have to melt them in gas units.

The kiln can be a ceramic kiln which I dislike because of the oxidation but that can be worked around. You don't have to get crucibles from me, you could go to coorstek for cheap assay pots. You don't have to run the kiln all the time although I do since it speeds up so much stuff to have the color molten.
I wrote this entire thing up in GlassnotesIV. It's right there. Some have suggested I won't give up the formulas. I don't need to in many instances. They're already in print. I put many of them there.

Josh Bernbaum 11-17-2019 10:13 AM

For me, with the many colors I've made so far, it's been less about trying to make a color that no other manufacturer makes and sells in bar form, and more about just what is possible to do with colored glass that's still in the molten state and doesn't have to be reheated from room temp. We can all, these days, do so much with incorporating bar, frit, and powders into our clear to make a piece, but that is still limiting. I like being able to do things like colored avolios and other hot bits when I'm occasionally making goblets, and more often pulling lots of cane that consists of duro cores (from Gaffer) but that I can case multiple times in my color before pulling. That is a look to the cane and subsequent murrine I do, that is different than what one could do with store bought colors. Getting the fits right has been frustrating over the years, but satisfying when I do end up getting it dialed in eventually. But as stated earlier, even factory made colors (esp. Kugler) are not devoid of some compatibility issues.

Pete VanderLaan 11-17-2019 10:15 AM

I use Richenbach enamel white since it's so cheap and they are indeed nasty. When the EU finally bans lead arsenates, I'll melt them in the yard.

Larry Cazes 11-17-2019 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Ahlefeldt-Laurvig (Post 145936)
Why would you do it? Are they different so you stand out…Id love to see a color Ive never seen

Precisely yes. That is why I use mostly gold and silver fuming in my weights. I can get colors and effects that are somewhat unique. Isn't that personal expression what Art is about for a lot of us?

Pete VanderLaan 11-17-2019 01:22 PM

Character:

I used to love Zimmermann rod mainly because it was so irregular in tonality. He made a glass Paul Marioni lusted after called "mother of Pearl" in three tones, all phosphates all gorgeous. As was often the case incompatible with most of the clear we were using at pilchuck. This was a man who loved color.

I was looking at some pieces in the shop today that have hung around for some time and I had the exact same reaction. Glasses that were wispy turquoise beginning to opalize as you went down the piece, then changing gradually to an amber opal tone. Put them in the sun and they explode in florescent blues. I have a piece in my living room I made years ago which drifts from a ruby to a pale blue. All one color, all thermal history which is what I'm currently pursuing in my colloidal glasses. It isn't going to happen in rod.

There are really colors that don't want to be made into rod at all and i think it's more thermal history stuff. Chalcedonia simply cannot be made as well as a rod comparing it to pot glass.

Pete VanderLaan 11-17-2019 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larry Cazes (Post 145959)
Precisely yes. That is why I use mostly gold and silver fuming in my weights. I can get colors and effects that are somewhat unique. Isn't that personal expression what Art is about for a lot of us?

****
One would hope!

Pete VanderLaan 11-17-2019 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shawn Everette (Post 145950)
On an aside, we need to watch what's going on globally, china's been making strides in the past decade.

*****
The quality clear coming out of the Shanghai shop is really remarkable. Absolutely iron free, bubble free material Xi Wu has done an excellent job making up the materials they work every day. He's the most attentive student I've ever had. They aren't constrained by pesky EU rules. Lead monosilicate makes for some really nice goop. Really crisp cad sel colors as well.

Shawn Everette 11-17-2019 02:11 PM

The quality of the boro coming from there has really improved over the past 10 years. Doesn't hold a candle to the us color or german clear, but a marked difference from what it once was.

I'd be curious if they'd ever enter the color market, if they can manage to get a handle on a 96. COE consistency is one of the nagging flaws of the boro. May just be more profitable to stick with the tchotchkes. And not have to deal with whiny glassholes.

Pete VanderLaan 11-17-2019 04:17 PM

I've discouraged Eveline from going there as well as the cullet market. She wants to bring a type of glass to the Chinese middle class ( a mere 350 million people) without considering a western market. That's why I ever agreed to assist there.

Until there is a mental shift in the north, where other glass is made that concentrates on the low end West at any price, we don't co operate with them at all. Engineering a quality glass costs money and committment. So far, the north aren't even close.

What we do, is really very different and you won't hear much about it. Scott spent two months there and I 'll return next spring if my health permits. It's a powerful market.


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