CraftWEB Hot Glass Talk

CraftWEB Hot Glass Talk (http://talk.craftweb.com/index.php)
-   General Hot Glass Discussion (http://talk.craftweb.com/forumdisplay.php?f=4)
-   -   Controller install and repair - Help (http://talk.craftweb.com/showthread.php?t=12335)

Art Freas 06-04-2019 02:13 PM

Controller install and repair - Help
 
Looking for someone to install a Bartlett controller in an annealer and fix a broken element (coil) in an annealer. Tried Spiral but they only do watlow and won't fix an element. Any thoughts on someone to do it? Seattle Pottery was going to do it but Dave their guy who worked there and was going to do it no longer works there. Seems like Seattle Pottery doesn't want to do it anymore without Dave. Kind of at a loss here.

Eric Trulson 06-04-2019 03:14 PM

At the risk of sounding like a broken record (we already yell at you enough about learning to weld :p), these two jobs are eminently do-able by yourself, would probably take about 2-3 hours total.

Replacing the controller is just a matter of marking and disconnecting the wires connected to the existing controller, swapping in the new controller, and re-connecting the wires. Replacing the element wire will either mean pulling out the existing element and laying in a replacement, or doing Pete's "find the break, torch it till both ends are red-hot, twist together with pliers" trick.

If you really want to have someone else do it, Jordan Kube and Chuck Lopez are the two good techs I know of offhand in your area, and I'm pretty sure they both accept freelance work occasionally. Expect to pay some kind of reasonable premium to get them to come out to your shop for such a small job.

Pete VanderLaan 06-04-2019 03:19 PM

If the element is actually broken into two pieces in an identifiable location that you can see, and if you at least have a bernzomatic torch common to glass benches these days, then you can at least just fix the element yourself. Gently pull the element out of it's groove and heat both broken ends of it with the handtorch which indeed will get hot enough to do this. When the metal is glowing, grab it with a pair of pliers and straighten a bit of the coil. Do that to both ends.

Once you have those bits of wire, maybe three inches long each, heat them again with the torch and simply twist them together with the needlenose while its glowing ( It has to be glowing) . Then, while glowing, push it back into place.

I have elements with multiple breaks- up to four an element that have been fixed this way by me. It's not hard. They have lasted decades at this point but are funny looking.

As to the controller, good luck. I've never even heard of a bartlett. Repairs of controllers are slow going if not impossible given our throw away society . At a certain point, your shop is simply going to have to come to grips with doing repairs in house. Spiral Arts and Seattle Pottery are telling you No for a reason .

Pete VanderLaan 06-04-2019 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric Trulson (Post 144186)
Expect to pay some kind of reasonable premium to get them to come out to your shop for such a small job.

*****
Or not so reasonable premium... Both Chuck and Jordan have gainful employment as it is...
Programming the controller. That will bring you to your knees.

Larry Cazes 06-04-2019 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Art Freas (Post 144185)
Looking for someone to install a Bartlett controller in an annealer and fix a broken element (coil) in an annealer. Tried Spiral but they only do watlow and won't fix an element. Any thoughts on someone to do it? Seattle Pottery was going to do it but Dave their guy who worked there and was going to do it no longer works there. Seems like Seattle Pottery doesn't want to do it anymore without Dave. Kind of at a loss here.

Bartlett as in the built in controller on JenKen kilns?

Art Freas 06-04-2019 04:20 PM

Bartlett Genesis series.


Second point is that from a liability and insurance perspective I don't do my own electric in the shop. I could but don't.

Pete VanderLaan 06-04-2019 05:00 PM

Load it in your car and take it home. then do it. Take it out on the sidewalk and fix it. It it broke in your possession then you could always just sell it and buy a new one and have that installed for you by a licensed electrician for a fee. If it is the case that someone without UL accreditation or as a licensed electrician can come into your shop and fix it, then the insurance policy is shot full of holes. Are you going to ask proof of license with anyone who walks through the door? Based on this I assume they have to sign off on a liability responsibility document. Are you telling anyone who comes in about this interesting feature of your insurance?

Steven O'Day 06-04-2019 05:12 PM

I've had the liability problem with our administration as well. Robert Battey at Northwest Pottery Supply in Bend OR might be able to help.

Art Freas 06-04-2019 05:16 PM

Actually my electrician does give folks his license number on his card. On fixed electric in my shop I HAVE to use a licensed electrician.

For other things if I show a basic element of due diligence insurance companies will generally not give you a hard time. Do it your self be ready for a hard ride. To me this is just basic risk mitigation for the business.

Jordan Kube 06-04-2019 08:29 PM

I'm not a licensed electrician but I can stand behind your guy and tell him how to hook it up. I try not to do element replacements anymore.

Pete VanderLaan 06-04-2019 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jordan Kube (Post 144194)
I'm not a licensed electrician but I can stand behind your guy and tell him how to hook it up. I try not to do element replacements anymore.

****
Perfect. I'm off to watch Chernobyl finish up.

Shawn Everette 06-05-2019 11:28 AM

From what it says on the Bartlett site you're dealing with 24v in and 12v out, if your controller is what burns the place down I'd be surprised. If you are trying to install it on something that required a different output then that is where things are going to get complicated. Otherwise should be fairly plug and play.

Larry Cazes 06-06-2019 07:20 PM

Liability? Its just not that complicated

Art Freas 06-07-2019 12:49 AM

I get that it seems over the top but I really want to keep clear of permit and insurance issues in my town. They are really fussy and these days I can't take the risk.

Jordan, thanks much I really appreciate it. At this point the controller vendor is willing to walk my vendor through it. Many thanks.

Thank you all for you help and counsel, it is appreciated.
Art

Pete VanderLaan 06-07-2019 09:30 AM

The liability game goes on forever. If something goes wrong in Jordan's scenario, Jordan can blame the installer for doing it wrong and the installer can blame Jordan for poor instruction. Then you need a video camera and a deposition from God Who knows verifying the material was not tampered with at another time. If the manufacturer in the second scenario can't actually see what the vendor is doing, it becomes "He said She said" if there is any real money in the pot.

UL is simply a methodology of giving lawyers someone to sue when things go south. Students have been processed into impotent idiots by fear of UL. Students actually learned under the renaisannce approach to operating a studio. No more.

When I ran the fire Dept in Santa Fe, at one point our insurance agent came in with an urgent matter. It seems we were well covered for the things we did at a scene but we were not covered for things we did not do. This could be covered by "errors and ommission insurance". I listened to the guy and told him to get out of my office. I cancelled all our insurance and called the State Risk Management division and asked how I could self insure. They set me up with a painful downpayment into an escrow account. We went on from there. On two occasions, we had litigation commence from an emergency scene. As soon as the attorneys for the litgant discovered we had no conventional insurance, they dropped the cases.
Given how poorly and inaccurately the manuals for this sort of stuff is written, It's the blind leading the blind.

Rick Wilton 06-07-2019 11:02 AM

I had to get my self built kilns inspected for CSA approval (in Canada) what a complete waste of $400.00 I called "intertek" and they sent a guy over with a laptop and nothing else. He didn't inspect a damn thing, didn't even open the panel, the wiring could have been undersized, ungrounded literally anything could have been going on. All he wanted was the $400.00 for the three certification stickers. I told him the specs ie watts, amps, voltages etc and away he went. Absolute cash grab and nothing more.

Shawn Everette 06-07-2019 11:10 AM

Judging by the wiring diagram in the manual it looks fairly straight forward. The only thing that seems a little different is the zone outputs, but those would be ignored in most of our applications. Programming this thing on the other hand...

Again, what would make this installation difficult is installing it on a relay that needs a different input, but there is always a work around.

Pete VanderLaan 06-07-2019 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick Wilton (Post 144219)
I had to get my self built kilns inspected for CSA approval (in Canada) what a complete waste of $400.00 I called "intertek" and they sent a guy over with a laptop and nothing else. He didn't inspect a damn thing, didn't even open the panel, the wiring could have been undersized, ungrounded literally anything could have been going on. All he wanted was the $400.00 for the three certification stickers. I told him the specs ie watts, amps, voltages etc and away he went. Absolute cash grab and nothing more.

****
That's pretty much what UL does as well. You do a basic demo, then they take 10K and you get a book of stickers. They'll be back in a year.

In the fire service there is this organization called "insurance Service Organization" They grade the effectiveness of a dept in an individual set of tests. I don't think they leave their offices much at all. In New Mexico, your rating determined your funding from the State.

But UL is worse. You are the cow, you will be milked.

Lawrence Duckworth 06-07-2019 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Art Freas (Post 144190)


Second point is that from a liability and insurance perspective I don't do my own electric in the shop. I could but don't.


How did you get to this place Art? You sound like youíre afraid to make small repairs to equipment necessary to keep your business going.

Art Freas 06-07-2019 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lawrence Duckworth (Post 144224)
How did you get to this place Art? You sound like you’re afraid to make small repairs to equipment necessary to keep your business going.

Not afraid, just live in a highly regulated county and city with lots of inspection. I am cautious where liability is concerned. Also as an ex firefighter I have seen a lot of times where a little error in electric had a big effect.

I actually make a lot of repairs, I just don't have the electrical background that I would like.

Rollin Karg 06-11-2019 09:50 PM

Pete this is painful reading, but thanks for the tutorial on element repair.

Pete VanderLaan 06-12-2019 09:15 AM

Inner Macgiver

Lawrence Duckworth 06-12-2019 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Art Freas (Post 144227)
Not afraid, just live in a highly regulated county and city with lots of inspection.

I get it. Itís like that here. Can be suffocating at times.
What would they do to you if you got caught fixing your annealer?

Franklin Sankar 06-16-2019 09:32 AM

Pete is your element repair for annealers only or you used it for small furnaces.
I canít believe if you damaged say a plug and wire on your wall that you have to called a lic person to fix it. Who will il know?
I am sure Jordan is better than any of the lic people, what prevents him from doing a repair according to code.
Franklin

Pete VanderLaan 06-16-2019 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Franklin Sankar (Post 144314)
I am sure Jordan is better than any of the lic people, what prevents him from doing a repair according to code.
Franklin

****
I have no doubt you are correct. Jordan does not have an electricians license nor does he have liability insurance when the client is not a happy camper.

I have not tried my fix on staying above 1200F to any extent. So, I don't know. You could always try it. Make the twist good and tight. Clean the joint if you touch it. An SCR would really help.


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:59 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© CraftWEB.com. Opportunity Network. 2008. All Rights Reserved.