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  #101  
Old 05-28-2015, 03:59 PM
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[quote=Pete VanderLaan;124172

I talked to someone yesterday who despite being aware of the current issues with unrequested inclusions in System96 cullet , was still ready to buy it. It didn't matter to the individual if it had stones or not. It was really easy.

.[/QUOTE]


Maybe crappy cullet is fine to use when the finished product isn't going to be very good anyway. Is it a rental studio or a teaching facility?

I'm just glad that I don't need to use cullet. That seems like a very weak link, considering the supply. I'm still trying to understand why anybody, besides folks with wire melters, would want to melt cullet.
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  #102  
Old 05-28-2015, 09:59 PM
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This isn't life threatening if you get a stone in your gather. Just pick it out.

Obviously I would be pissed that I paid for good glass and found a stone, but it's not like you have 2000 pounds of unusable product.
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  #103  
Old 05-28-2015, 11:46 PM
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I thought I could just bite my tongue.

I started mixing batch moved over to spruce pine for convienence. Started melting spectrum cullet because it fit the system 96 colors we pot melted. I never liked the late nights staying up to the wee hours feeding the furnace. I've melted tons and tons of spectrum everything from the system 96 scrap to the new 2.0.

It is very unfortuanate spectrum has turned out some cullet from an obviously failing furnace. It does sound like they understand what happened and I'm sure they will rectify the problem.

The dog pile that's happening here is obviously an amusement for many. I find it childish and honestly surprising. If your not melting spectrum maybe you should just step aside and let this problem resolve itself. If I was a representative from spectrum it would be very difficult to post here with any info with all the haters on this board.

We are still a small group mistakes happen. I know many of the color companies have sent out color that is not perfect. (Yes I have some) Spruce pine had bad cullet problems and had to retool. A crucible company that tried to hide voids and flaws. No one here is perfect everyone and every business has it's set backs. They still fill a need with what is normally a good product. I would be happy to place pieces I've made with spruce pine batch and the new spectrum 2.0 in anyone's hands and No One would be able to tell me which is what.

I think if spectrum was not willing to fix the problem or deny the problem we would have something to bash them on. This has not proven to be true.
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  #104  
Old 05-29-2015, 06:55 AM
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The flawed cullet is showing up in bags that are dated over a six month period. That in my mind is a long time if that's your business.

When Spruce Pine was having quality control issues melting at Fenton, They voluntarily withdrew the product from the market almost immediately.

If you have 200 seconds made from a glass where you only make one gather pieces, that's a lot of seconds.

I see no signs of change here at all. I do hear that OCR has replaced or will replace glass for two clients. I see no information coming forth regarding correcting the problem. That would be nice.

I don't have a dog of any kind in this fight. I use neither cullet or commercial batches. While I do agree that all manufacturers have production issues from time to time, I would say that it's not so much that the errors occurred, it's a question of what the company does after the errors have occurred. I happen to think six months is a long time when that's all you do.

In my experience, I have found stones to be hard to see frequently when you're in the middle of a piece, particularly a large one. I have found it really difficult to remove stones from large pieces without doing substantive damage to the design of the piece as well. What I do know is that a potential buyer will find them every time and if they are of sufficient size, the piece will likely check.

So, Sky, we simply disagree. I haven't seen any statement from Spectrum at all.
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  #105  
Old 05-29-2015, 10:06 AM
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Spectrum called yesterday with a lot of apologies and will be sending out a new pallet of clean glass from the new pot......
Now, what to do with 1100 lbs of cullet with "ceramic aventurine"? Ideas? rent a cement mixer and polish them all for landscape rocks?

Thank you craft web - you are a beautiful thing!
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  #106  
Old 05-29-2015, 10:18 AM
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I'm glad Spectrum called you. Take it to your local recycle. Most of that glass gets crushed up and does not go back to being bottles since there's already a boatload of crap in the recycle bin. Or, give it to a school for beginning students.
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  #107  
Old 05-29-2015, 11:15 AM
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I talked to Spectrum yesterday also. My contention was that 1000 lbs of my new shipment had dates of 3/15/15 crossed out and 6/28/13 put on it instead. My worry was that this was about the time that they switched their formulas and I was not confident that this was not the "old" glass.
I spoke to Kate, who was very pleasant and accommodating.She explained that this glass was definitely from the new formula. They had stockpiled 100,000 pounds of the new glass as a "super-set" before they released it in 2014. They wanted to be sure that once the glass hit the market that they would not have trouble keeping up for the demand. The date change was because they mark the bags in batches and these bags were already marked, so instead of taking new bags, they crossed off the dates and put the correct dates to correspond to the dates of the glass that I was getting. I explained my concerns and she readily agreed to take back the bags that I did not feel confident in using. They would pick them up once I palletized them and send me replacement bags. It was a pleasant and seamless exchange. This is the first time that I have dealt directly with Spectrum and by my experience, I give them an A+ in customer service.

Last edited by Mark Rosenbaum; 05-29-2015 at 11:19 AM.
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  #108  
Old 05-29-2015, 01:01 PM
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There is no reason to bash Spectrum. They have been nothing but nice once they found out about our problem through Phil from OCR who has also been very instrumental in getting this problem resolved.

What is the "new formulation"? I didm' know this part. Hopefully it will solve the stuff we find inside ornaments after time?
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  #109  
Old 05-29-2015, 03:36 PM
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I have to wonder whether the response would have been the same if a light had not been shined on the subject. You are slow to anger and quick to forgive. A virtue.
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  #110  
Old 06-05-2015, 08:52 AM
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This thread is the reason for the phone calls and solidifies the value of craftweb.

That said, while j would be upset about finding stones, I would not throw away 1,000 lbs. I'd just sort through it and use the good nuggets and toss the bad.
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  #111  
Old 06-05-2015, 09:03 AM
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One of the individuals who has the stony stuff also says that it has semi melted lumps as well and forms crystals after some time. The glassy lumps would be really hard to see in nugget form. It's really a type of cord and it would imply to me that there was a real lack of homogeneity in the melt. These are not new batches.

It's really difficult t say how much of it is out there. It's not isolated certainly.
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  #112  
Old 06-05-2015, 09:48 AM
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Not just stones but black scum and metallic bits

The last 2 50lb bags I cleaned and inspected took me 4 hours to go through and I tossed almost half. But it's not just about the stones. I posted months earlier about hour our glass has been crappy all season. Ornaments from the fall are cloudy and have weird crystals or scum sealed inside but were beautiful when made. The outside surfaces of vessels feel bumpy but nothing is visable. There are random bubbles galore inside of bowls that I made months ago, enough that I quit making them. I make all my work for fall shows I during the winter and store it for summer cold working. We tried changing our charging schedule several times but finally in April decided to go through every nugget.
We shut down In 3 weeks for the summer and until then I'm pretty much a one person operation. We should be getting our replacement for our last order next week. It was finally shipped last week.
We always assumed something was wrong with our process. Never did it occur to use that the glass we were melting was bad before we started. Talk about a losing battle....
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  #113  
Old 06-05-2015, 09:50 AM
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Oh and by the way Pete. I'm angry as hell!
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  #114  
Old 06-05-2015, 10:15 AM
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well, quick to anger and quick to forgive and then get angry again. How do you really feel? Mad, Glad, Sad, afraid? Tell us more about your feelings. Even worse, maybe there is something wrong with your process.

I could not explain bubbles forming in bowls and I kind of doubt that one. If you think of glass formulated as molecular structure, Silicon has four spaces to hook up with other stuff so they call it the silicon tetrahedron. If you count the molecules of silicon going into a glass- and you really can do that, you can calculate how many molecules you want to get into a matrix without junk kind of left over and hooking up in rather random ways you didn't expect, or not hooking up at all. That method of calculating a glass is really the method used by Appen and is casually referred to as mole formulation. It's not the way I do it but I know I really should. It's way more accurate than doing base percentages derived from pounds of the chemicals making up the glass.


What I think you've got ( think mind you, not know) is a bunch of stuff that never really melted completely in the first place and that the ratios were perhaps not right. So, you had some excess sodium carb in the mix and over a period of time it disassociated from the original melt as little crystals forming on the surface and then sweating as temperatures and humidity altered them. The little bumps would be really tiny unmelted glassy stuff. I would be at a total loss to explain bubbles forming well after the glass had cooled. John Croucher might well know better but I'm pretty sure he's avoiding this hot potato.

It has always been the case that the spectrum stuff was off loaded with the reaction incomplete which is why there were a lot of complaints about stuff gassing off and dissolving the refractories and crucible in the furnace. This was really a big difference between the SP cullet and the Spectrum stuff. Tom has told me he finished the melts which would make it more expensive to produce. I don't know that as fact although the stuff I tested for him initially was fined out. I do know the Spectrum stuff is not completely done when it is off loaded so, in a furnace that is already dumping refractory stones it wouldn't surprise me to see the operators wanting to get the glass out really fast so it didn't get more stones and in the process really under cooked the product. That is pure speculation on my part. You however have a product in your hands that would get produced that way and I'd be hard pressed to think of another way of doing that. People I'm hearing from privately are saying they thought it was them, not the glass. Melting glass really requires that you not take shortcuts. It's why I don't like clocks in a melt sequence. It bites you in the ass every time you try. It happens at every level of manufacturing imaginable right up to 100 ton melts blowing out in Seattle and Anchor Hocking having the side of the furnace give way. You gotta love what you do to keep doing it.

I suspect the story has yet to play out.
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  #115  
Old 06-05-2015, 10:17 AM
Eben Horton Eben Horton is offline
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Unmelted glass is a whole different story..
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  #116  
Old 06-05-2015, 10:38 AM
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It speaks volumes as to what can occur when you sub out part of your process.
Think "airbags".
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  #117  
Old 06-05-2015, 11:05 AM
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Or it could be sunspots.

"...machines and digital equipment are breaking down or going on the fritz for no reason, the #1 most common side effect of Mercury Retrograde."
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  #118  
Old 06-05-2015, 11:08 AM
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The moon is in Feces.
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  #119  
Old 06-05-2015, 11:14 AM
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This is how I feel....
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  #120  
Old 06-05-2015, 11:16 AM
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you need lightning bolts! ( Miss you Brian)
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  #121  
Old 06-05-2015, 11:25 AM
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Will work on that...
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  #122  
Old 06-06-2015, 10:35 PM
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I have been using Spectrum Premium for the last couple of years without issue. The last two pallets I received were far different from everything else. The initial issue was the bags were splitting and the nuggets had been trashed alot - there were alot of tiny pieces of glass in the bags. I spoke to Phil at OCR who saw the bags and agreed that it was not acceptable. He was going to talk to Spectrum about it. Then I heard about the issues with everyone else and took more time while charging to look at the individual nuggets. I don't have the issues with cords or metal but I did find this lovely piece of flat opaque white glass in the middle of one bag recently! oh my!
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  #123  
Old 06-07-2015, 07:30 AM
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Phil texted me from the GAS conference and asked if we had received our new glass yet (No, maybe monday). This week I found new things in the glass, like milky patches in a bunch of nuggets. Yesterday's cleaning was mostly black scum and stones. Our glass is much cleaner now that I'm spending precious blow time to sort and wash all of the glass, tossing our about 1/4 -1/2 of each bag.
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  #124  
Old 06-07-2015, 07:31 AM
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maybe they have a disgruntled employee?
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  #125  
Old 06-07-2015, 10:24 AM
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That's always an interesting possibility.

I have a book on "Refractory and Chemical defects in Glass" ( profusely and luridly illustrated) and one of the case texts is about stones in one BK melter at Corning. After talking about Corrundum stones a good deal, The case history ended saying " After discovering a worker was throwing an asbestos glove into the furnace at the end of every work shift, the problem ceased." I'd imagine that was true of the employee too.

I have this great Library.

I do not think that simply getting rid of the visible stones is going to make it all go away. The stuff which you describe as bumps are in my opinion probably semi melted glass. That will continue to show up later and would be really hard to see. They might show up in a polariscope better.

The stuff that Barb sent the photo of looks more like floor sweepings. Does it all look like that? I would have to think for a while about the opalescent stuff but the floor does come to mind. It certainly looked pretty dirty or is that how it always looks?.
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