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Old 01-10-2019, 02:19 PM
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Franklin Sankar Franklin Sankar is offline
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Can AI kills the artist

Quote.....AI could make it impossible for artists and novelists to make a living
Copyright protections were originally designed to incentivise creators and allow them to profit from their work, but what happens when the artist is a machine?

Happy new year
Franklin
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Old 01-10-2019, 11:41 PM
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https://www.bloomberg.com/news/video...-a-robot-video
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Old 01-12-2019, 04:40 AM
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Some day we will see a glass printing 3D printer
Franklin
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Old 01-12-2019, 07:53 AM
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It already exists. ( German)
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Old 01-12-2019, 09:48 AM
Tom Fuhrman Tom Fuhrman is offline
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I think if we look at history, this is already the case. If you look in the 1st New Glass Survey published by Corning about 1980, they included pieces made by machine from the U.S., Japan, Germany and possibly others. The machine was making all of the designs that the artist/ designer had initially drawn up for production. If the Corning Museum designated these as "art" glass back then, I think we have to give their view great credibility.

In Europe, it was the tradition for many years that the "artist" never produced the glass, but only designed and it was made by the factory in the most expeditious way possible at the time. I can remember being at the IGS in Novy Bor many years ago and there were glass artists there from all over the world that simply had to be an assistant or on looker as their designs were produced by the Czech factory craftsmen from several different factories. Marvin only got to punch his wooden forms into the blown vessels as they were nearing completion and it about drove Rich Royal nuts not be further involved in the production of his pieces.
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Old 01-12-2019, 11:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Fuhrman View Post
If the Corning Museum designated these as "art" glass back then, I think we have to give their view great credibility.
*******
I don't know if I'd give Corning that power at all. Curators come and go and sometimes bad choices have been made. There's some difference between selecting the best examples of an era and the most important examples. That goes on now.
Even in the ancient glass section, what we really see in those cases are often the production of their day and the reason the examples exist is because so many of the things were made.

Probably the most boring publication Corning did on the subject was the 1960 evaluation of modern glass. That work was absolutely devoid of any merit. Just godawful.

I do think that the change that occurred with the new studio impetus in 1962 was to attempt to force the museum and collectors into acknowledging that prior work had indeed become awful and that recognition of new approaches were justified. It didn't hurt those instructors careers either. I remember all these people running around with their slide sets to show at gigs where the instructor at school "X" got lunch. beer , some small payment and then they were off to the next deal. Marvin turned it into an artform in itself.

John Nickerson was a designer at Blenko at one point and is an interesting man He did the full body mockups for automobiles in clay that would become the desired car in detroit . He was really good at it. When Shorty Findlay was pushing for me to become a designer there, Nick told me it would make me crazy and that as soon as I left, the floor would change the work. They wanted me to come in and not even live there. I could go home. I passed. By the time the third wave attempt to place glass school graduates was in gear, all these degreed artists were making arty stuff that the factory couldn't produce and clients at Stucky's didn't want to buy. That was the last move before the private studio became a goal but those private shops were spit on by the schools since there was no obvious need for the instructors that were canonized. Some remarkably good work came out of the independent shops and it was categorically ignored since, in my opinion, it was a threat.

But the factories are what they are. Small shops emulate them today in that the goal is to make money making the same thing again and again. Marketing is more and more difficult to do. Those same small shops would never bring in a designer. Designers have no clue about the economics of running the shop. There's a good reason there are so many pumpkins out there. They sell. Don't get confused and use the word art in the discussion. It ain't.
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Old 01-12-2019, 12:53 PM
Larry Cazes Larry Cazes is offline
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AI and 3D printing are only just extensions and enablers of the human mind, condition, and personal expression. It won't kill these things but just may enable us to push the art form further than before.
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Old 01-13-2019, 10:06 AM
Tom Fuhrman Tom Fuhrman is offline
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Pete, different views of opinion and semantics, you and I . Museum of Modern Art has embraced many factory manufactured items as art and included in that is some glass in their permanent collection. I've been to several other museums of international acclaim that have done the same.
Go back and read the preface to that publication by Thomas Buechner. BTW, He is still active in the contemporary glass discussions and the present day creation of glass "art".
Like it or not, art historians, museum directors, and art critics do have and have had a big influence on what we describe as "art". I personally don't adhere to a lot of their values and beliefs, but they still have a huge influence on all of us. Much like our governing bodies here and other parts of the world, we may not like most of it or adhere to their beliefs, but we are effected by it and still have to find our own individual way to relate to it.

Question, were the following artists or just designers for their production houses. : Fredrick Carder, Galle, Renee Lalique, Rudolf Jurnikl, Jon Kuhn, Louis Tiffany, Dale Chihuly.
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Old 01-13-2019, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Fuhrman View Post
Question, were the following artists or just designers for their production houses. : Fredrick Carder, Galle, Renee Lalique, Rudolf Jurnikl, Jon Kuhn, Louis Tiffany, Dale Chihuly.
********
Oh I think you're right. It leaves out Thomas Kincaide though... and I would reiterate that the ancient glass section at Corning is largely production of the day. Rodin certainly employed 400 people at his height.

And I do remember the Buechner prefix in that edition without being directed to recall it. But then... I go to Harvey's paradox about the notion that if you make a piece that's really hot, lots of galleries will want to handle it. If you can't supply them, they'll rush to someone else and if you tool up and hire people to make stuff, you'll be criticised for not doing your own work.

At our height, Mary Beth and I had seven employees doing some part of the process. I get it but I don't think of it as art particularly. It's just made slow stuff. I wonder sometimes how Banksy pays his bills. These days, I just make what occurs to me to do. We pay our bills with the crucible business and lose money on the glass shop. It's a lot more fun. I remember what Narcissus Quagliata said to me ( and others).

"Never let your art be your work. "

I still have the desire to make my coffee table book, "Pumpkins of the World", in lurid detail.
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Old 01-13-2019, 12:40 PM
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Speaking of "what is art?", this aired just a few hours ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_w3nUiJL0Y
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Old 01-13-2019, 04:20 PM
Tom Fuhrman Tom Fuhrman is offline
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Pete, I seriously considered including Thomas Kincaid in that group. Like you, not sure I ever made any "art" but sure had a lot of fun. Glad I quit when it wasn't fun anymore. Just wish I had a pension at my present age, but that is about the only regret.
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Old 01-13-2019, 04:59 PM
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Harvey nailed it in my opinion. All of the others I have any intimate knowledge of were marketers more than artists and they were good at it.

Look at Orient and Flume as a marketing entity. 1971 and David makes sure that you know this is something special. How? It comes in a box firstly. With tissue paper! Second it's not only signed, it has a serial number and a card with the same number on it! !! Lundberg did the same thing essentially but Hopper did it first. The real message is "not everyone can have this" and that continues to be the message today.

I will tell you though that the MOMA won't be bullshitted by the technique. I think Corning will be indeed and even the Renwick periodically falls victim to bad thinking. I stick to "Make what you Love" these days. My work changes regularly now without any consideration of whether it sells but the only reason I can do that is that I pay my bills a different way. If my world collapses, look out out for my line of pumpkins. I like to eat as much as the next person.
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Old 01-14-2019, 08:28 AM
Tom Fuhrman Tom Fuhrman is offline
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when I was in school they stressed. "Presentation is everything" We had the director of the school that had designed everything from the Campbells soup can to the Pepsi bottle, Mobil logo, to the Avanti automobile. He knew what would sell and why people bought. We learned design not just as form follows function but what markets wanted aqnd how to capitalize on that. BTW, he never took a salary for teaching as he owned a large design company with locations in several parts of the world. Massimo Vignelli who had a piece in the 1st Glass Review used to work for him.

I think some of the earlier shops just followed the trail of Steuben and a few others as far as their packaging and certificates, etc. were concerned. As the baby boomers came of age, they wanted something to segregate their individualism and self acclaimed wealth to others so they leaped on anything that tasted of exclusivity be it cars, furniture, glass, jewelry, or whatever it was that day. where would most financially successful artists be if it weren't for the credence that was given to them by the galleries that represented them.
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Old 01-14-2019, 10:18 AM
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Tom, you studied under Raymond Loewy? I'm impressed! :O
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Old 01-14-2019, 01:28 PM
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and furthermore.. MB and I used to believe that if your work was really good, it would be noticed and would rise to the top based on that alone.. which simply is not true.
If you look to the modern glass people, you will find they all have publicists and the better financed among them put out books on themselves, lots of books They try to create desire. Dale's strategic move back around 1990 was to offer to decorate a museum in Seattle with the boat house work for 25K. Museums also suffer from inferiority complexes as much as the next institution and the competition basically said "I want to be decorated too. It costs 25,000 bucks" Dale needed the income to pay the staff in a recession but by the time the third museum bit, he was off and running and soon, staff was all over the place setting up the decorations. That was very smart marketing but doesn't say much about art.

Frank Stella and Andy Warhol were hot for this litho press. Oil and acrylic paintings were slow to dry and way too time consuming. That press was sweet. Warhol could crank out a show with minimal effort, in differing colors and turn on a dime.

Vermeer on the other hand never did more than 31 paintings in his life and Van Gogh never sold one while alive. Not good press. I rather like their work and would call it art in the sense that I thought they would pursue it regardless of the remuneration. I would not call the paintings of the Dutch Masters in most instances "Art". They were paid for family portraits. They all did stuff with light that probably inspired Kincaide but Kincaide knew how to make different editions of the same piece.

I don't doubt the focus at the school you attended at all. If you are teaching design, it is certainly something to differentiate your design from something else in the interest of making money. In a lot of instances, there are far easier ways to make money but I suspect the people doing the art stuff are just about virtually unemployable.

But if its all about exclusivity, the high end Rolex watch is definitely art.
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Old 01-14-2019, 02:55 PM
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Quote:
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Tom, you studied under Raymond Loewy? I'm impressed! :O
It was actually Jay Doblin who worked for Raymond Loewy for several years before he started his own firm called Unimark Int'l. Loewy naturally was the name that took all the credit. The school I went to was the direct descendant of the Bauhaus in the U.S., I.e. Institute of Design in Chicago. We had a couple of people on staff that had actually been at the old Bauhaus in Weimar.
Mark Peiser went to the same school but was a few years ahead of me.
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Old 01-14-2019, 02:58 PM
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Rolexs have been knocked off so much that they are not nearly an "art form " as Piaget or Patek Phillipe if based on exclusivity.
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Old 01-14-2019, 03:04 PM
Tom Fuhrman Tom Fuhrman is offline
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many of the woodworker's guilds have been wrestling with the AI machine question as so much of the woodworking is done by CNC routers, 3D printers and such. carving is no longer done by hand but many times by machine just as glass cutting and engraving has been computer controlled and operated by machines.
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Old 01-14-2019, 05:05 PM
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"But if its all about exclusivity, the high end Rolex watch is definitely art."
*****
Well that dripping sarcasm was lost I see. I'm just not much interested in art as commodity. You seem to see it as a badge of success. I've seen a phenomenal amount of woodwork recently that is truly beautiful and is not made by machine. My house is filled with genuine efforts by people I've admired all of my adult life. I'm privileged to have a Mark Peiser large sculpture in the bedroom windows. I'm comfortable with the paths I've chosen and how that has worked out. Not famous by any measurement but secure in what I do have.
My blacksmith friend Tom Joyce uses a trip hammer in a major way. He calls it "profit margin" Tom is quite a visionary in iron and a MacArthur fellow, the second one I know personally. Both of them are admirable and neither was the self promoter that is standard today. Mark doesn't do it either. At 81, he's dug in to making a non toxic opaque white glass as a project. Melt 160? I admire that drive.
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Old 01-14-2019, 05:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Fuhrman View Post
many of the woodworker's guilds have been wrestling with the AI machine question as so much of the woodworking is done by CNC routers, 3D printers and such. carving is no longer done by hand but many times by machine just as glass cutting and engraving has been computer controlled and operated by machines.
Arent we talking about two different things really? Technique versus design and artistic expression? CNC will never replace artistic expression or the ability to design things that please us.
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Old 01-14-2019, 07:36 PM
Tom Fuhrman Tom Fuhrman is offline
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Arent we talking about two different things really? Technique versus design and artistic expression? CNC will never replace artistic expression or the ability to design things that please us.
yes, it still is upon the individual to have the vision and express it as they see it.
I was just stating what some other medias are coping with and discussing.
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Old 01-14-2019, 08:01 PM
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There's a rather fascinating show on "reality" tv called Forged in Fire. What's enjoyable about the show is they often vary the first round - sometimes they get to use the big powered hammer, and sometimes they get a hand-cranked coal forge. I find it fascinating to see the knives they make with some of the older tools.

However, what you often see is the young buck with HUGE muscles and a couple of big hammers pounding away while the 70-year old uses the power hammer. Sometimes the young buck finishes, but often they end up so bagged they barely turn in a knife.

The idea that we "aren't allowed" to use modern machinery to realize what we want to make is hilarious. Who voted in these "art police" anyway?
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Old 01-15-2019, 08:31 AM
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I really like "Forged in Fire " as well. My early days in glass were spent surrounded by blacksmiths in Santa Fe. So many artists!

I sense that there's a distinction drawn at this point, as I read it here between one off pieces not bound by forced repetition and a commodity type art. I would more call Kinciade a scam artist than an artist but from a commodity point of view, he had it nailed. Tom indicated that he considered adding Kincaide to his list of the successful folk. I would never put Kincaide on the same dais as Galle. Desiree Christian was indeed Galle's hands and Christian clearly showed an inclination to do some work on his own. I do think Galle had a vision to push glass as a medium beyond what was generally offered up at the time. I have always thought that Dale had a vision and he really did do some remarkable work on his own before the accident. The accident just accelerated what was coming anyways and his vision was to get glass to be recognized as an artform, not a craft. I think he succeeded wildly at that and raised the tide around many of our boats.

At the same time, I continue to find it really curious that people refer to themselves as "Glass Artists", not just artists. They don't do that in the bronze world or in painting. I do note that people doing watercolors often describe themselves that way and don't say artist at all. For me, these days the question really becomes "Why did you choose glass as your medium?"

I always loved my dad's answer: "Glass is a chalice for light."
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Old 01-15-2019, 10:40 AM
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Tom, Doblin was no slouch; am still impressed.

Rolex watches are overweight and boring. (Just my opinion.)

It's spelled K-i-n-k-a-d-e, as if anyone should care.

Why do these so-called "reality" shows have to be built around competitions? I'd rather watch a show that simply takes you through a process to a successful conclusion. I'm not interested in exploiting failure for financial gain or entertainment.

Some years ago, I saw the following label on a dining room set in a department store: "Craftsman-assembled from machined parts." That seems to be where we're headed.
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Old 01-15-2019, 03:17 PM
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"Van Gogh never sold one while alive. Not good press." Interesting observation in this context given that the Van Gogh paintings were sold by his brother later.

Also the whole concept of a signature work sometimes feels odd to me. When does a signature work become a production item? Is it production on the 10th, 100th, 1000th? How different do they have to be to not be production and stay as "art". I started in this world a lot later than most so some things are odd to me coming from a software engineering world.
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