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  #26  
Old 12-11-2018, 02:07 AM
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I really appreciated the curious, no holds barred early days of hot glass forums... I know there is IP that people are worried about but progress is stifled when protection of something that probably doesn't need protection is paramount. I have no idea how that glass is made but I'll bet the fulcrum is in the reduction state of the base glass. If you want to make glass that uses extra reactive metals you need to pay close attention to the position the base holds on the overall oxidation / reduction spectrum. And base glass ph is probably important.
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  #27  
Old 12-11-2018, 02:09 AM
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And you are probably playing in the lower limits of the colorants...
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  #28  
Old 12-11-2018, 03:34 PM
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Pete sells some when you catch him on a good day and he does not have to chomp it up. I am still living off Black from years ago. That stuff goes a long way.

I make some for myself and give chucks away if someone is in the shop but I don't sell it. Most of what I make is what Pete taught me years ago and pretty close to his personal formulas from the class so I tend to protect those as if they are his property and I get to use them for paying to take the class. One day I might have my own perfect custom color that I want to share but right now I am not quite in that spot. I already have two jobs making color glass for sale that I could not support would drive me crazy.

Pete taught me the basics and cut me loose I am currently working out a good transparent orange but just can't quite nail it. Then again I am only on try three at this point and all 3 have been usable if not exactly what I wanted. Ok one was brutal ugly....I admit it. Pete did not include a orange in the class...bummer. Maybe one day I will break down a beg for mercy help but I honestly think I know what to do it is just taking me some time to zero in.

Last edited by Scott Novota; 12-11-2018 at 03:46 PM.
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  #29  
Old 12-11-2018, 03:45 PM
Eben Horton Eben Horton is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Novota View Post
Pete sells some when you catch him on a good day and he does not have to chomp it up. I am still living off Black from years ago. That stuff goes a long way.

I make some for myself and give chucks away if someone is in the shop but I don't sell it. Most of what I make is what Pete taught me years ago and pretty close to his personal formulas from the class so I tend to protect those as if they are his property and I get to use them for paying to take the class. One day I might have my own perfect custom color that I want to share but right now I am not quite in that spot. I already have two jobs making a glass that I could not support would drive me crazy.

Pete taught me the basics and cut me loose I am currently working out a good transparent orange but just can't quite nail it. Then again I am only on try three at this point and all 3 have been usable if not exactly what I wanted. He did not include a orange in the class...bummer. Maybe one day I will break down a beg for mercy help but I honestly think I know what to do it is just taking me some time to zero in.
No orange because orange is the color of pumpkins.
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  #30  
Old 12-11-2018, 03:48 PM
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Don't tease me Eben…..I have other reasons for orange you can't possibly comprehend(Spoken as Alec Guinness). Well I loved the blood orange Gaffer had that they never made again....for pumpkins. By the way, there is a reason I am talking about blood orange in a luster red thread. cough. cough.

Last edited by Scott Novota; 12-11-2018 at 03:54 PM.
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  #31  
Old 12-15-2018, 07:13 PM
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Red? Why do you want it red when it can do this?
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  #32  
Old 12-16-2018, 12:06 AM
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Red? Why do you want it red when it can do this?
Oooooooh, looks like I'm ordering that next!
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  #33  
Old 12-16-2018, 08:01 AM
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well, Gaffer just passed their final inspections and will begin melting again next week.
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  #34  
Old 12-16-2018, 10:35 AM
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well, Gaffer just passed their final inspections and will begin melting again next week.
What a monumental achievement. Moving my studio this boring, just 3 blocks down the street was hard enough. Did they start new from scratch or did they stuff a bunch of furnaces in a shipping container?
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  #35  
Old 12-16-2018, 01:54 PM
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I believe it was six containers, perhaps seven.
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  #36  
Old 12-16-2018, 03:40 PM
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The last update on the Gaffer Glass web site about the move is from Sept. Is there another news feed with more information?
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  #37  
Old 12-17-2018, 06:49 AM
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Not that I'm aware of. John and I have had a long relationship since we both make, or made color rods. So we talk, usually not about specifics, but i've helped Gaffer, Gaffer has helped me. Fifty years in a trade is a long time.
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  #38  
Old 12-17-2018, 12:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Myers View Post
I really appreciated the curious, no holds barred early days of hot glass forums... I know there is IP that people are worried about but progress is stifled when protection of something that probably doesn't need protection is paramount.
*********
I've mulled this over for a few days and am inclined to disagree. Gaffer , in actuality has done some remarkable work challenging a variety of fixed assumptions, the first I'm recalling was that you could not melt lead glasses in an open hearth.

These days, I see people working hard to make new materials available and such challenges as "Progress is stifled" and so I stop and consider the Chinese knock offs that glass people get so pissed about. It is the case as well, when the Chinese insist on technology transfers to them if manufacturers want cheap chinese labor.

Color rods aren't really any different. Reichenbach as well as Cristalica are subsidized by the german govt. It's far easier for them to subsidize an industry than to send welfare checks to everyone there each month even if it is an EU violation. So, From where I sit, I see things like enamel white being sold below costs coming out of Germany in that factory, so why would one not try to protect their products from knock offs, or prices propped up by the govt?

When I stopped doing my classes, I had become disillusioned and it was really the fault of my own naivete . The last thing I expected was for a student to go home and start using the formulas to make commercial rod and to then undersell what I charged and then to have even further balls not even having an original name.

So, no, I don't think progress is stifled but it does require some determination. I do think that since a fraction of glassworkers are willing to get off their asses, stop whining and to learn something about their primary material, that they will keep getting vague answers, or none at all from the ones who blazed the trail.

It's all out there. Read, experiment, spend some money, lots of money and you'll be rewarded with your own pallet. You took the first class Jon. Obviously you learned something worthwhile.
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  #39  
Old 12-17-2018, 01:23 PM
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a lot of colors get red by simply getting them hot
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  #40  
Old 12-17-2018, 04:15 PM
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OK, cut it out. This is actually a subject worthy of serious examination.
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  #41  
Old 12-17-2018, 04:59 PM
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Red lustre is a tricky color. I posted notes about it on gaffers website. The trick for getting gold ornaments is to not get it so hot that it strikes and too ch it with a fluffy torch or in the glory. Itís not really a red but rusty color.
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  #42  
Old 12-17-2018, 07:41 PM
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To get gold we ramp up the gas in the hole, to get a blue silver we use the fluffy set normal or the mapp gas.
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  #43  
Old 12-17-2018, 07:46 PM
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*********


When I stopped doing my classes, I had become disillusioned and it was really the fault of my own naivete . The last thing I expected was for a student to go home and start using the formulas to make commercial rod and to then undersell what I charged and then to have even further balls not even having an original name.
Don't let it get you down, Pete. For every bad experience there are 1000 other good ones and some very thankful students.
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  #44  
Old 12-18-2018, 01:01 AM
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I think that just because you can crack a part of a formula that it somehow will lead you to making that glass, which is what this sounds like, hasn't done much melting of colored glasses.
As Dr. Jane Cook tells me, and as I have grown to appreciate, just because you have the formula, doesnít mean you have the process. I used to ask her if I got an XRF or EDS compositional analysis of a glass (very technical engineering things I donít understand), what keeps me from making every color sold?
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  #45  
Old 12-18-2018, 07:45 AM
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Well, it doesn't take into account the temperature of the furnace, rate of melt, atmosphere of the furnace, rate of draw from the furnace, how it's handled on the punty making the rod, annealing temperatures and that fluorine won't show up in spectral analysis.

As I've said on occasion, changing certain elements by as little as one half gram in a 20 lb melt makes a notable difference. So there's your challenge. Herbert Hillary used to put things into Hxtal that actually didn't do anything at all but flagged someone copying it. He called it moondust.
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  #46  
Old 12-18-2018, 08:49 PM
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Elemental analysis just tells you what atoms are present and in what ratio. All analalitical tools (XRF, EDS, ICP-MS, etc.) have blind spots. You only get a portion of the periodic table. They tell you nothing about structure. Things such as if some atoms bonded as crystals, or in colloidal suspension, or is it acidic or alkalie, and a huge number of other things are still unknown. By itself it is not useful. When combined with other information it can help shorten developement time, or help understand why certain glasses behave certain ways. If you are doing a matrix of colors, it can be helpful to augment the matrix with a few samples where the color is known and the composition is not. In some cases it can tell you simply changing the ingrediants is not the solution.
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  #47  
Old 12-19-2018, 07:08 AM
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It's probably worth looking at some color rods and how they changed over the years. Ferrari red comes to mind. As Eben pointed out, the current color in question has changed quite a bit. That could be formulation, but it could be furnace/timing related. I have long believed that Kugler has so many colors in the neighborhood of a tight red that it's a canonizing of failures that happen all too frequently.

I've done enough melting that I would be hesitant to ascribe results with anything one might think was a concrete condition. When you can't get the same results in two different spots in a furnace, it's worth some humility.
If you send samples to Corning for expansion testing, They will advise you to always request the same technician each time. One might want to ponder why that is.
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  #48  
Old 12-19-2018, 07:41 PM
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"Herbert Hillary used to put things into Hxtal that actually didn't do anything at all but flagged someone copying it. He called it moondust."

That's pretty funny, reminds me of the masons that would build in a pane of glass a chimney and tell you to call them before you use it so they could do the final step. They would only show up if you paid and would just drop a rock down the chimney to break the glass when they showed up. If you tried to use it without paying the house would fill with smoke.
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