CraftWEB Hot Glass Talk  

Go Back   CraftWEB Hot Glass Talk > Hot Glass > General Hot Glass Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 01-04-2019, 03:09 PM
Scott Novota's Avatar
Scott Novota Scott Novota is offline
AbbyNormal User
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Pensacola Florida
Posts: 2,126
Scott Novota is on a distinguished road
First true rebuild of Moly Furnace

I have one of Steve's Moly's and this is my first true ripdown and rebuild. I have done full rebuilds on ElectroGass and Hubs as well as put together more than one glory hole just wondering what the actual material of a couple of things are.

#1. What is the door actually made out of it seems much harder than Castolite30.

#2. On tear down we are noticing the corrosive damage done from melting the Cryllut. Would it be out of the questions to cast some added hard refractory around the passage bricks or use some more bricking around the passage bricks as that is where the largest voluntary flues where produced.

#3. Have read up on some people putting a flue in the door. At this time it I would venture that some experience with that experiment as yielded a result that is positive? Worth the effort?

#4. Any advice on pulling the Moly elements without breaking these things they seem to have the tensile strength of a Frito when cold. We have broken two over the last 5 years due to other issues. I fear we will lose some on this venture as well.

#5. I was thinking about bracing the inside of the crown with 2x4s and using a pully systems to lift it. Is there a better way?

#6. Is high temp still the goto for castable/brick/fiber?


Thanks guys.

Last edited by Scott Novota; 01-04-2019 at 03:11 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 01-04-2019, 03:38 PM
Pete VanderLaan's Avatar
Pete VanderLaan Pete VanderLaan is offline
The Old Gaffer
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Chocorua New Hampshire
Posts: 20,590
Pete VanderLaan is on a distinguished road
Steve's original door was a house mix High Temp uses. I'd recommend kast-o-lite 30. Cast a mullite thermocouple tube ( or whatever) into the door such that the input from the hot face is at the top of the doghouse port on the furnace. It should rise close to the top of the cast door. Mine were 3/4 inch. Plug the outer end when not in use with fiber. That will keep the pressure off the passage bricks. Clean this out frequently.

As to the passage brick issues. If you put the vent in the door, you don't need to worry about the passage bricks at all. If you don't put the vent in, that pressure will find the easiest way out, either those passage brick or the door.

I have no idea what "Cryllut " is. Is this an Eben word?

With batch, volition is real. SP87 loses 16 lbs or so out of every 100 lbs as carbon dioxide and as people have observed, a bunch of tramp boron which promotes everything melting. Not using borax in the batch is the place to start. I'd recommend my formula mixed by Spruce Pine. It simply doesn't harm your furnace. It's a bit more expensive than SP87 but that potassium makes for fabulous color. If you do it, I'll supply you with a compatible unoxidized clear formula for colorants.

Pulling elements: If your furnace is old enough, it used 6/12 450/450 elements which are remarkably fragile and do seem to have a useful life after which, they're not trustworthy. If you have 9/18 312/500, the passage brick will be 3 inch brick. They usually wear out, getting bloated. I'd get Charlie Correll to make you new bricks. They really need to be perfect or you'll have a lot of grief. Pulling the brick, first disconnect the cables, not the clamp. Gently, gently rock the brick in it's socket and it will come loose. Make sure you have sufficient overhead clearance and have a place to hang the element out of harm's way. It really can be done, but patience...

I don't sell elements anymore but I still have a lot of clamps and straps. Replace the straps.

I hate that crown. It's just stupid as a design. When I did help people remove the crown, first I put a mirror and a light in the furnace to see how bad it was. If there are sufficient cracks to where it's unlikely to hold together, just screw it and break the crown. If you don't like that pessimism, cut some 1x10s, drill 3/4 inch holes in them and run a rope loop down through the top, through the boards and cinch the boards up tight to the crown. As many as you can fit in there. Lift it up. Good luck here, you need some.

If in doubt about survival, call us and we'll have a new crown cast for you. It usually takes about three weeks in winter. Sometimes you get lucky and we have one. When Steve went bankrupt, we kept all the molds at High temp, well hidden from the bankruptcy court. We have most of them, just not for the door.

I buy most of my refractories at the other Hi Temp in Fenton Missouri. I like Tom and he carries MORCO refractories which are my hands down favorites. MORCO 95 is a personal favorite. I mix it with plaster to make casting molds.

Just don't let him start talking about horse shoes.
__________________
Where are we going and why am I in this basket?
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 01-04-2019, 04:40 PM
Mark Rosenbaum's Avatar
Mark Rosenbaum Mark Rosenbaum is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: New Orleans, LA
Posts: 978
Mark Rosenbaum is on a distinguished road
Pete, you aren't selling elements anymore????????????????
Is there another supplier to recommend????
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 01-04-2019, 05:04 PM
Pete VanderLaan's Avatar
Pete VanderLaan Pete VanderLaan is offline
The Old Gaffer
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Chocorua New Hampshire
Posts: 20,590
Pete VanderLaan is on a distinguished road
Cheyenne Malcomb will get some element types Mark. The tariffs and customs protection now going on in China are making it hard to want to try. Cheyenne listed everything except the 6/12/ 450/450 when I looked earlier. He had the bulk of the 9/18's and is really nice to deal with. He has the same problem I did. The 6/12 long elements are terrible to ship. The factories wanted to stop honoring their own insurance. The prices there are going up fast and it's not worth the headache I've been having. I still have clamps and straps until they run out.

I still have some shorter elements in the barn but I won't ship anymore. It all gets broken and I'm not stupid when it comes to packing.

I prefer being the neighborhood pot dealer.
__________________
Where are we going and why am I in this basket?
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 01-04-2019, 07:35 PM
Eben Horton Eben Horton is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Wakefield, RI
Posts: 4,402
Eben Horton is on a distinguished road
Use Cast-o-lite 30 Plus. Itís better than the old formula
__________________
<eben epoiese>
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 01-04-2019, 09:27 PM
James Burts James Burts is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 34
James Burts is on a distinguished road
When we cast up our door, we included a vent to allow gasses to escape after we charge. It's really quite simple, and is certainly worth the effort to protect the rest of your furnace.

All that was required was once the old castable was removed, we drilled a hole in the door's outer skin of the door to allow the mullite tube through. We positioned the tube so that it had a good slant, and braced it in place while putting in the castable. (Like Eben, we also used Cast-o-lite 30 plus.)


As for removing elements-- if you're careful with it, removing the elements isn't difficult. To me, it's like a giant version of the kids' game "Operation". Treat them gently, avoid lateral pressures if at all possible, and pull perfectly vertically. You may have some that don't survive removal and re-installation, but it's really not too bad with the 9/18 elements that we use.

--James--
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 01-04-2019, 09:58 PM
Michael Ahlefeldt-Laurvig Michael Ahlefeldt-Laurvig is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Sweden
Posts: 697
Michael Ahlefeldt-Laurvig is on a distinguished road
Ive melted Casto-lite 30 into a complete black filthy mess, cost me a furtune, on the other hand I cast a crown with Greencast 95 that I ran hotter than you will ever dream of for 17 years and it was in perfect condition when I tore it down, I just cant understand why anybody would want Casto-Lite
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 01-04-2019, 10:29 PM
Scott Novota's Avatar
Scott Novota Scott Novota is offline
AbbyNormal User
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Pensacola Florida
Posts: 2,126
Scott Novota is on a distinguished road
Yeah they are the 6/12 450 and I now have 3 spares. I am seriously thinking about scooping up the other two I know someone has just to have a ready supply for a while.

I have gone about finding three different suppliers for the elements now and they all have different prices. Had 4 until Pete got out but he has not had my elements to ship for quite some time.

Mark I know two of thee have yours because both of them tried to sell me the size you have before I cleared up which ones I actually run.


Thanks guys I have my pots on order and will give hi temp a call Monday once we get this guy pulled apart and get a good guess on all that we need. Will post some pictures of the carnage.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 01-04-2019, 10:37 PM
Eben Horton Eben Horton is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Wakefield, RI
Posts: 4,402
Eben Horton is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Ahlefeldt-Laurvig View Post
Ive melted Casto-lite 30 into a complete black filthy mess, cost me a furtune, on the other hand I cast a crown with Greencast 95 that I ran hotter than you will ever dream of for 17 years and it was in perfect condition when I tore it down, I just cant understand why anybody would want Casto-Lite
Greencast 94 is not an insulating castable and in my world, I want to have my crown insulated as much as possible. Heat rises after all.
__________________
<eben epoiese>
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 01-05-2019, 02:13 AM
Jordan Kube Jordan Kube is offline
?
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 1,647
Jordan Kube is on a distinguished road
Greencast 94 is essentially castable crucible. Bulletproof. It's also twice as conductive as mizzou, let alone Kastolite 30. I don't believe you used the Kastolite product that was rated to 3000 degrees. I've run them in glory holes for 16 hours a day at 2500 F without the black filthy mess.
__________________
WWUD? Think for yourself.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 01-05-2019, 04:18 AM
Michael Ahlefeldt-Laurvig Michael Ahlefeldt-Laurvig is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Sweden
Posts: 697
Michael Ahlefeldt-Laurvig is on a distinguished road
Id rather have it last forever, and insulate with fiber on top
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 01-05-2019, 08:23 AM
Pete VanderLaan's Avatar
Pete VanderLaan Pete VanderLaan is offline
The Old Gaffer
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Chocorua New Hampshire
Posts: 20,590
Pete VanderLaan is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Ahlefeldt-Laurvig View Post
Ive melted Casto-lite 30 into a complete black filthy mess, cost me a furtune, on the other hand I cast a crown with Greencast 95 that I ran hotter than you will ever dream of for 17 years and it was in perfect condition when I tore it down, I just cant understand why anybody would want Casto-Lite
Big difference between Kast-o-lite and Kast-o-lite 30. One is a 3000F insulator, the other a 2500F insulator. I've melted the lower one too.

I would not make a crown out of the 30 , these days I use morco 95 which I prefer over any AP Green castable. The Morco 95 looks brand new after five years.

I don't know what the kast-o-lite 30 plus even is. Calcium Aluminate is a two edged sword. It is the stuff that makes the castable set up and I do add some to aging castables, BUT it also makes the performance temperature drop significantly and needs to be considered with real moderation.
__________________
Where are we going and why am I in this basket?
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 01-05-2019, 08:30 AM
Pete VanderLaan's Avatar
Pete VanderLaan Pete VanderLaan is offline
The Old Gaffer
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Chocorua New Hampshire
Posts: 20,590
Pete VanderLaan is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Novota View Post
Yeah they are the 6/12 450 and I now have 3 spares. I am seriously thinking about scooping up the other two I know someone has just to have a ready supply for a while.

I have gone about finding three different suppliers for the elements now and they all have different prices. Had 4 until Pete got out but he has not had my elements to ship for quite some time.

Mark I know two of thee have yours because both of them tried to sell me the size you have before I cleared up which ones I actually run.


Thanks guys I have my pots on order and will give hi temp a call Monday once we get this guy pulled apart and get a good guess on all that we need. Will post some pictures of the carnage.
*********
I did not see the 450 450 element in Cheyenne's list but it may just be oversight. Converting your furnace to the 312/500 can be done. It needs the shorter front plate and walls plus a different transformer. Pretty major conversion. I'll sell you my furnace if you want. It has all the parts but lacks the electric package. New crown new front plate, holds a 28 inch pot, pot comes out the front. I have a spare transformer for yours.
__________________
Where are we going and why am I in this basket?
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 01-05-2019, 10:08 AM
Brian Wong Shui Brian Wong Shui is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 159
Brian Wong Shui is on a distinguished road
Use the 450/500 to replace the 450/450. The 500 is a longer cold end which works well with a standard 9” 2800 ifb for the element brick. Otherwise you have to cut the brick. The longer brick also allows you to put 1” more of insulation on the crown. Cheyenne can order them. He just ordered me a set. And was a pleasure to work with.

For the door I cast a composite door. Pryor Giggey Supermax MZ for the hot face backed with kast-o-lite 30. I use a slip sheet between the castings so that they don’t bond together.

I’ve found that glass eats the Kastolite and it turns into a goopy mess.

Use a thermocouple protection tube for the vent in the door.

You’ll also want to improve the floor insulation.

I built a 3D cad model of the 300lb furnace if anyone is interested.

Last edited by Brian Wong Shui; 01-05-2019 at 10:09 AM. Reason: Added comment.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 01-05-2019, 04:33 PM
Charles Friedman Charles Friedman is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Seattle Wa
Posts: 556
Charles Friedman is on a distinguished road
Vent those puppies. Yes indeed.
I have said so, from the get-go.
Steve just laughed.
__________________
"Glass will save the world from ourselfs" CharlesF
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 01-05-2019, 05:28 PM
Pete VanderLaan's Avatar
Pete VanderLaan Pete VanderLaan is offline
The Old Gaffer
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Chocorua New Hampshire
Posts: 20,590
Pete VanderLaan is on a distinguished road
That's not fair. Steve got it as time went on. At that time the notion of outgas from boron was not thought of as an issue since low melt boron glasses were not available. Anytime that the tech from doing this junk gets put out there, there is a learning curve. ''The Stadelman Furnace was a real revolution at the time. It grew, not unlike the Labino daytank in '68.
__________________
Where are we going and why am I in this basket?
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 01-05-2019, 08:38 PM
Charles Friedman Charles Friedman is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Seattle Wa
Posts: 556
Charles Friedman is on a distinguished road
He was told to vent at the time he was making the first molds. He said Moly D did not need to vent, period. This he is telling someone that has already 10 years of time on Moly Ds and Silicon Carbides. So go right a head and time will tell. So how many lost furnaces are out there, do to not venting and get eating up by "Condensation of Glassius Gaseous" (SP) and other bad things, just because Steve didn't believe what he was hearing.
Yes, Steve started a very big thing and it helped a lot of people get going.
It was also good that the Chinese got into the element making business and brought price down to make using Moly Ds worth while for the small guy.
Plus, better/cheaper transformers and electric controls where being made.
And getting better information from other people in the know, like Pete.
Good timing helped a lot. Good for you Steve thank you.
Close, but no cigar, in my book. It was painful to watch such, a needless and costly, slow learning curve.
__________________
"Glass will save the world from ourselfs" CharlesF

Last edited by Charles Friedman; 01-05-2019 at 10:13 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 01-06-2019, 09:38 AM
Pete VanderLaan's Avatar
Pete VanderLaan Pete VanderLaan is offline
The Old Gaffer
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Chocorua New Hampshire
Posts: 20,590
Pete VanderLaan is on a distinguished road
Well, Happy Birthday Steve!

Well it was a learning curve that departed from the notion that SiC was the only way to really melt electrically. I had one of the very first Moly's for the gallery studio in Santa Fe. For that, the go-to was salvage transformers from Brazil electric that utilized a 480V subdivision transformer to step down to 60V on the third tap, a good trick. The supply of those surplus units didn't last that long nor do the 6/12 450 450 elements that make the heat. So, rather than to just sit there, Steve went to Marcus Electric and had transformers custom built. I had several done there as well. Those transformers were engineered to have the proper KVA for the job as well as custom secondary output voltages which allowed for beefier elements such as the 9/18 group to be used and that is where that technology remains today. In the Shanghai shop, far heavier elements are used. They're really hard to break. SiC happens to be reactive with glass, a great downside, but SP does not contain Borax so it's best not to fault it either.

As to the venting, early on, an attempt was made to vent Jim Mongrain's unit and then it wouldn't make temperature. I changed the methodology for where and how to vent and it worked far better. It's still not common to see them vented. How many wire furnaces built commercially do you see being built with vents. I'm not recalling any.
One thing about Steve was that he wasn't really a glassblower. He was more of a theoretical electrical engineer tackling the notion of how many BTU's per cubic foot it would take to melt glass. But you could tell from the basic designs of the vessel that he didn't do much glass at all. He pushed me into making larger and larger pots which I have always disapproved of, the 28 and the 34 specifically. There are good reasons for making tanks. Even today, I can count the number of glassworkers who understand what volition loss even is. Had the door been placed over Christ's tomb, Christianity never would have gotten a start. My views on the crown are well known but that's a failure on the part of many furnace builders. So, not being a glassblower, or a chemist really, Steve made errors. Overall, he moved the ball forward and adaptations have been made. The current furnaces offered are far better from both Wetdog and Cheyenne and I would be disappointed if that was not the case. I am disappointed to see you feel the need to beat up on him. I lost money in his bankruptcy but I don't hold a grudge.

If I wanted to beat up on anyone, it would be Sinotte who has a pot made that is oval and costs him about $350.00. He sells it for over $2,000.00. That's offensive. In general, I continue to be amazed that people will pay what they pay for this equipment. My furnaces rarely cost more than $3,000 dollars and the last one was about $2,000 for everything. Runs really nicely.
__________________
Where are we going and why am I in this basket?
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 01-07-2019, 02:44 PM
Scott Novota's Avatar
Scott Novota Scott Novota is offline
AbbyNormal User
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Pensacola Florida
Posts: 2,126
Scott Novota is on a distinguished road
Steve has been nothing but awesome to me. I did not buy my furnace from him but he lined up the seller for me to get one. Made calls, hand held me though that purchase and convinced me it was a good idea. To say it would not have happened without his support and efforts would be and understatement. I have not regretted a single thing about doing it. It was the right move. Thank you Steve if you read this.

Then he supported me as if I had purchased it from him. Helping me diagnose any issues, telling me where to get replacement parts, helping with any question I had. While in your experience with him he might not have listened to a contradicting assertion to his builds in my experience he has been nothing but about the most friendly and customer service oriented professional I have had the pleasure of dealing with. The kicker was he did not have any reason to do any of it. It was just who he is.

There is a short list of people that have helped me in the business that did not look for anything in return other than to help someone out. Pete and Steve are booth high up in the rarefied air of that list.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 01-07-2019, 05:12 PM
Matt Bezark's Avatar
Matt Bezark Matt Bezark is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: boulder, co
Posts: 164
Matt Bezark is on a distinguished road
U.S. elements

duralite makes and sells elements. i've never had any of theirs break in shipment.

matt.

http://www.duralite.com/molybdenum-disilicide.htm
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 01-07-2019, 06:46 PM
Eben Horton Eben Horton is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Wakefield, RI
Posts: 4,402
Eben Horton is on a distinguished road
If I was shipping those elements I would build a quiver of wood shipping crates and ship every set of elements with a return shipping label and take a deposit on th crate Incase they keep it.
__________________
<eben epoiese>
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 01-07-2019, 07:54 PM
Sky Campbell's Avatar
Sky Campbell Sky Campbell is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Gainesville FL
Posts: 893
Sky Campbell is on a distinguished road
Scott I have plenty of the 6/12 elements of you ever need any.

Pete I would be interested in your spare transformer if you care to sell it.

Cheers!
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 01-08-2019, 09:15 AM
Pete VanderLaan's Avatar
Pete VanderLaan Pete VanderLaan is offline
The Old Gaffer
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Chocorua New Hampshire
Posts: 20,590
Pete VanderLaan is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sky Campbell View Post
Scott I have plenty of the 6/12 elements of you ever need any.

Pete I would be interested in your spare transformer if you care to sell it.

Cheers!
*******
I would sell it in the Spring Sky. Right now it's out in the weather which doesn't hurt them. It certainly looks like a POS but it has been out and about running a variety of furnaces. It was down at Dick Moile's place in Houston while they waited for their Marcus unit to be available, which took some time. I can't remember the specs offhand but it was running a 300lb pot for Dick and Kathy. I lent it to them and honestly can't remember if I used it. It is a 480/240V with three taps and I think it's a 25KVA but I'm not sure.
__________________
Where are we going and why am I in this basket?
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 01-08-2019, 05:06 PM
Sky Campbell's Avatar
Sky Campbell Sky Campbell is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Gainesville FL
Posts: 893
Sky Campbell is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete VanderLaan View Post
*******
I would sell it in the Spring Sky. Right now it's out in the weather which doesn't hurt them. It certainly looks like a POS but it has been out and about running a variety of furnaces. It was down at Dick Moile's place in Houston while they waited for their Marcus unit to be available, which took some time. I can't remember the specs offhand but it was running a 300lb pot for Dick and Kathy. I lent it to them and honestly can't remember if I used it. It is a 480/240V with three taps and I think it's a 25KVA but I'm not sure.
Yes that would be perfect for my needs. I can wait until the spring no problem. Shipping will be a bear but not much of these 3phase transformers around here anyway. Thanks
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 01-08-2019, 06:08 PM
Pete VanderLaan's Avatar
Pete VanderLaan Pete VanderLaan is offline
The Old Gaffer
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Chocorua New Hampshire
Posts: 20,590
Pete VanderLaan is on a distinguished road
It's not three phase , near as I can recall. They are built to be outside after all. It will have a happy price. Maybe I could drive it to penland.
__________________
Where are we going and why am I in this basket?
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:36 PM.


All published comments within these message boards are the opinions of its contributor and does not represent
the opinion(s) of the owner(s) of this website. Please see the Terms of Use file for more details.

Books to Help Artists Avoid Online Scams: Top 10 Email Scams | Social Media Scams

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© CraftWEB.com. Opportunity Network. 2008. All Rights Reserved.