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  #26  
Old 11-21-2020, 11:09 PM
Shawn Everette Shawn Everette is offline
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I'm sorry that the general concerns of the proletariat are beneath you. We do try to appease. This doesn't exactly seem like the venue for material scientists or conservationists, more targeting us dregs of the art/craft world.

Currently I'm looking into practical mid to long term storage solutions, as some of my older glass appears to be experiencing network dissolution from the paper or cardboard it was in contact with. Guessing from vintage it's System 2.0 or the cuttoffs. Washed what I could, added a desiccant, and have moved to plastic only.
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  #27  
Old 11-22-2020, 07:19 AM
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you always have facebook as a fine alternative. .

The original question was "why are there so many soft glass manufacturers." That led to quality differences in essentially the same product at different times. If you don't make your own glasses, as Louis demonstrated so well, you will periodically have major issues with it. That's actually true in batch glasses as well when mine runs change but it's quite rare.

Cullet companies will continue to go out of business from time to time.

Otherwise, you can attribute the soda bloom you are seeing in your older work as caused by demons. I'm a big fan of science.
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  #28  
Old 11-22-2020, 10:27 AM
Tom Fuhrman Tom Fuhrman is offline
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From my perspectives: In the old days prior to 1970 most glass companies in the US had a batchmaster who was responsible for batching and making the glass. Little attention was given to the it's COE. The batchmaster just had to satisfy the guys on the floor in production and the sales and marketing people who wanted something unique or of a quality that they could sell easily. If you look care3fully, most companies made items of one color and at a time and id little mixing of colorants in individual pieces. Use of colored frits from some of their batches were used as surface decoration. By not mixing lots of colors t5ogether or being concerned about encasing a piece in a clear glass compatability problems were few. Once the use of European colorants became a tool for the studio artists things changed for those individuals. Most commercial glass companies never concerned themselves with their use. They were just glad to have a small boutique market to haul away their unwanted cullet and get a few cents per lb. for it. It's unbelievable the amount of glass that has been buried over the years that was cast off from all the factories.
Prior to when a lot of the people on this board were born, studio glass essentially didn't exist and artists were just intrigued by experimenting with this new found material. In the 60s and early 70s people just took whatever glass they could find or make and as Pete said , then money changed evrything.
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  #29  
Old 11-22-2020, 10:42 AM
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I think you're on the money. These guys didn't case pieces much at all and you will have a hard time finding a mug or a pitcher with a handle of a differing color since that essentially was a torr seal.

There were exceptions to using cullet. Pilchuck early on really made some great glasses. Jim Lundberg, Michael Neurot, Peiser, Fritz, were part of the cadre making basic clears and colors that fit. They were a minority for sure as are batch makers today.
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  #30  
Old 11-22-2020, 04:31 PM
Larry Cazes Larry Cazes is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete VanderLaan View Post
My opinion is that until you've had the opportunity to actually use better glasses, that it's far easier to dismiss them.

Damascus is beautiful.
I had a similar experience when i made my move from public studio cullet clear to commercially available Borosilicate clear for my solid work. Complete change of optical and physical qualities which has enabled me to expand the work in directions I never dreamed of prior. It really was an education for me in the importance of the material quality and how it could effect my work.
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  #31  
Old 11-22-2020, 05:13 PM
Lawrence Duckworth Lawrence Duckworth is offline
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what Borosilicate clear are you using Larry?
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  #32  
Old 11-22-2020, 07:37 PM
Larry Cazes Larry Cazes is offline
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Quote:
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what Borosilicate clear are you using Larry?
Simax only. Best out of box quality in my experience.
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  #33  
Old 11-23-2020, 06:03 AM
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One of my students in the last color class said simply

"I did not know what I did not know."
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  #34  
Old 11-23-2020, 10:07 AM
Tom Fuhrman Tom Fuhrman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete VanderLaan View Post
One of my students in the last color class said simply

"I did not know what I did not know."
Pete: 50+ years of experience was an expensive journey but is irreplaceable for being knowledgeable and humbling. I think that most of us can share that quote.
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  #35  
Old 11-23-2020, 12:31 PM
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I'm also fond of Richard Marquis response to Harvey's "Technique is cheap".

Marquis said "Technique is really expensive."
***

It remains the case that any of us advancing the knowledge base were standing on the shoulders of giants when we began our own careers. Without Tom McGlauchlin at Iowa and without him in Toledo with Nick and Harvey, we'd still be stuck. Dudley Giberson was instrumental for me as well. The big difference between the Toledo workshops and simply going to Huntington W Va is that one group had settled in their comfort zone and the other was looking for something else. Fifty plus years has allowed a lot of great work to come out.

The excitement of the early years resulted in GAS conferences which were essentially show and tell and it was electric. Then as we all keep saying Money changed everything.
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  #36  
Old 11-23-2020, 01:08 PM
Shawn Everette Shawn Everette is offline
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I try to avoid facebook as much as possible, way too much noise there, especially on the glass "forums".

The original question wasn't centered around "manufacturers", but rather variety in coe. As you've pointed out, most factories had little reason to care about such trivial things, until sales shifted from finished product to supplies for artists. Then the fight was on for superiority of market share. We haven't really discussed actual differences in coe, and to me there is far to much variance to make any true concrete statements outside of specific commercially available glasses, but some generalizations can occur.

I've rode the cullet waves, and have yet to run out of glass. I don't see it happening soon, and ultimately I don't care who it comes from, as long as it's a fair stretch better than bullseye. At that point I'd probably look at spruce again. I'm far more concerned about oceanside's qc losses, as there's little alternative there. Wissmach and Youghiogheny are b grade at best.

Judging by a lot of the cords, checks, and cracks I can find in a lot of glass collections; I'm not sure that the general public, nor most museum curators, have as much of a discerning eye as you think. Even among conservators it can be hit or miss.

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  #37  
Old 11-23-2020, 01:49 PM
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Actually, in the works which MB and I sold over the decades, people who collected were incredibly anal about quality. The people who dismissed quality control were largely instructors who simply couldn't achieve high standards in a teaching environment, so it was easier to dismiss the people who strived to maintain quality as bubble chasers or what have you. Many collections sought donations of work and did not buy them. They got what they paid for.

The linear expansion coefficients of glasses that Gabbert marketed had to be adapted to one's own work. They were what they were and as Tom pointed out, they were happy to have a secondary market for the scrap. In color rods, the lead content was so high that they fit most of those cullets, not all but most as long as the surface tension was not disturbed.

I found in the market that the people who concentrated on the quality of their products usually prospered. We could do one show a year and go home and make the work.
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  #38  
Old 11-23-2020, 02:12 PM
Shawn Everette Shawn Everette is offline
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I believe that there are collectors that are concerned about quality, but that is a niche that doesn't represent the whole. Being close to someone in conservation has shown me that a lot of institutions are way more interested in provenance than quality of materials. There's really some fascinating stuff they deal with, and lots of toys many of us don't get to play with. I really wish that programs spent significantly more time with material science rather than memorizing slides. Though they might have a hard time finding talent to teach.

Personally I balance between my retail work and what I Want to make. The former affords the latter, and has way more discretion for error. I wouldn't say it's making me rich, but I'm more comfortable than many.
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  #39  
Old 11-23-2020, 05:29 PM
Tom Fuhrman Tom Fuhrman is offline
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Pete: you are so right. I had Tom McGlauchlin as my first instructor at Toledo in the early 70s. Things were a lot different then, as the glory holes were in a cross shape looking from the top down and 4 were nested together. We learned to polish the bottoms by hand, no grinding or lap wheels. Dudley was also one of my instructors about 30 years ago and gave me a lot of help getting started.
The GAS conferences in the early days were a good exchange for a lot of good information and some demos by Italians and many others that were invaluable at the time. A lot of those "pioneers" have passed on and not much is left of legacies. Some of the tours of studios were eye opening for me. John Lewis's suspended furnaces and his casting operation and Blanchard grinders fitted for glass polishing are still things most have little knowledge of. Brian Lonsway's parade float with a furnace and bench were un-forgettable. I still wish I had a photo of him working at the bench with a toilet connected to his blow pipe. It was such a statement of the group that has now been replaced by the pumpkin crowd. There were a lot of fun times over the last 50 years and it just doesn't seem to have those same vibes anymore. "The good old days".
Habitat and Heller were a couple that set the standards for collectors and artists. I hope Habitat is able to keep it going, although it seems their newer stuff is a lot of European artists.
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  #40  
Old 11-23-2020, 05:59 PM
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Lonsway in the stove pipe hat is unforgettable. I think Al Lewis had that shot in the first "Glass" magazine.

Truck drivers of the art world..... so true until money changed it all.

That first GAS conference in Penland... Drunk in a bus. Now I'm in awe that Mark was actually able to go to Weyl's door to talk about opacity with him. I had Norbert but that was a weak tea comparatively. The younger group does not see that the older guys are vanishing and you know all that knowledge just disappears.
It really was a different and not comparable time. I actually feel badly that the current group does not see that magic.

They inherit shit cullet.
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  #41  
Old 11-23-2020, 09:51 PM
Nick Delmatto Nick Delmatto is online now
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A previous mention by Pete to our Mentors reminded me of a workshop that I attended in Columbus with Mark Peiser, early 80s. I was no longer a student & had met Mark previously when Henry brought him to Kent State...first & only time I watched someone jack with Vise Grips & welded blades. So we were having lunch with Mark & he said very humbly that it was getting harder & harder to Top himself! That simple statement has stuck with me over the years while watching him re-invent himself about 10 times since then. He's a true hero to me.
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Old 11-24-2020, 09:05 AM
Tom Fuhrman Tom Fuhrman is offline
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Nick, so true about Mark, Just when you think he's run out of paths to explore, he finds another and with conviction blows it out of the water. Some of the stuff he designed prior to getting into glass was amazing as well.
Just another memory, When I stopped to see Nick Labino one day in Grand Rapids, OH he was working on a a new design for a furnace that was similar to cupola furnaces. As I recall, it had 6 sides and piping that went entirely around the furnace and 6 burner ports all run off one blower unit. I'm not sure how that ever evolved but I don't know of anyone that has ever tried to do anything remotely like that.
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  #43  
Old 11-24-2020, 09:40 AM
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That is a type furnace used in Korea and Japan Tom. I don't think he followed through on it.

When we did the very last color class, Scott Benefield interviewed Mark while the videographer recorded the interview. It's about four hours long and Mark and Scott and I talked about those days in Chicago, going to Penland and meeting Bill Brown and learning about glass for the first time while the crew was out in the shop melting color and playing loud music. It meanders as a conversation up until about 1980. Trouble is, I can't find it but I know the room that it's in. It took four disks. The Rakow really wants a copy and I really want to get it to them.

One of Croucher's and my favorite papers was the one Mark wrote explaining his process for deciding on what glass to make for his studio. It's in the Rakow. We included it in the technical papers that were part of the class handouts. That was a really fun time.
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  #44  
Old 11-24-2020, 11:04 AM
Tom Fuhrman Tom Fuhrman is offline
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Mark and I had several mutual friends in Chicago including one of his and my former professors. A friend of mine rented his place in Chicago when he and his wife moved to NC. My friend used to work with Mark when he was in the business of making industrial models. I tired to track Mark down in 69 to get involved with glass on a full time basis but was not successful as communications back then were spotty. Things at Penland were still in a developmental stage for glass at that time.
His presentation of his personal development at the Louisville GAS conference was a highlight of that conference for me. The man has done it all in one way or another. I wonder if someone has a video of that presentation. There should be a copy at the Rakow if it exists.
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Old 11-24-2020, 03:16 PM
Eben Horton Eben Horton is offline
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I covet Markís belt buckle
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  #46  
Old 11-24-2020, 06:50 PM
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His friendship is enough for me. I dreamed of it as a kid.
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Old 11-25-2020, 12:11 PM
Josh Bernbaum Josh Bernbaum is online now
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Mark is amazing. I can't think of another artist who has a deeper knowledge of their primary material. I think it's interesting this thread has gone to a discussion about him though. I imagine he doesn't have to actively think about linear expansion numbers or any 'fit' issues since he's using one type of glass at a time in his work these days. I know he used to have to think about that in the old days when he was doing blown work with different colors in the same piece. But I wonder if that LEC number means much to him now on the glasses he formulates, or if he's more just interested in the characteristics of each melt based on what ingredients he puts into the mix. The LEC number must have to be in a certain range if one wants certain types of characteristics or workability, but again I wonder how much someone like Mark is concerned or not with whatever that number that ends up being.
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Old 11-25-2020, 12:31 PM
Eben Horton Eben Horton is offline
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Letís get back to his belt buckle. Has anyone else seen this totally awesome belt buckle?? Itís so cool and belongs in a museum
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Old 11-25-2020, 12:38 PM
Shawn Everette Shawn Everette is offline
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I find it funny that ya'll lament about us youngins not apricatin the knowledge of the elders, when there aren't really the same venues to share the information. It's few and far between that the I see a color, batching, or equipment class offered; and yes GAS is kind of useless as a learning tool anymore. Not sure what good a panel on "performance art" does anyone. I also seem to recollect people saying "that's the last time I'll teach" on here. If there's no one that wants to teach, and no place that's hosting, it's kind of hard to disseminate the information effectively. I understand the positivity of what craftweb does, but it's no replacement for in person education.

Last edited by Shawn Everette; 11-25-2020 at 12:44 PM.
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  #50  
Old 11-25-2020, 01:33 PM
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I just think that the question about why there are so many soft glasses has been answered reasonably.

There simply are very few people alive at this point who can teach it in a meaningful way, it's just a fact. Chuck Savoie can but doesn't really, I can but I have no facility or stamina for it at this point. John Croucher certainly can. Kenny probably could if he chose to. When Mark taught at Sonora, he called me to get me to write basic formulas and wanted to do some stuff that might drive you nuts about durability. My classes had 14 pots running. Most have four.
I have to admit that Corning and Penland ruined it for me financially. I charged $1500 per person and had two classes with 12 each. When Penland asked me to teach it there, they offered $500 dollars a week. What would you do? Since I sold my furnaces built specially for the class, and I'm 70 years old now and I'm not willing to do that and compete with schools offering far less flexibility. We melted fifty colors in five days total. We did Hagy seals, ring tests dilatometry. It had a catered lunch. Standard fare that's offered is max four pots in five days. To me, that's not much. Those sorts of things come around a few times.

Mark indeed looks at expansion. His testing of Marco Blanko, which I did a lot of involved about 175 melts. It is simply the case that if you do monolithic work, it's not critical to know what it is, but durability is critical and that's one thing he focuses on. That, and color. Shawn referred to his own work decomposing and yes it will do that. Lots of modern glass is going to dissolve.

As to craftweb, of course it's not the equivalent of hands on glassmaking. Ask Franklin. What I wanted to have here was a technical exchange board to assist in solving problems. I definitely did not want it to be a place to show your work off. I do not want it to ever look like glassies. I have always exhorted people to do their best work though.

But we came from nowhere. we knew nothing. That great curious bunch figured it out over decades. Many were ridiculed for chasing bubbles. To suggest that since no one actively teaches it and therefore the trade is helpless when considering it is not cutting it with me. You make time for what you want to make time for. Much of the time we were toiling away, it was still hand to mouth financially, just like today.
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