CraftWEB Hot Glass Talk  

Go Back   CraftWEB Hot Glass Talk > Hot Glass > Antiques & Classics

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 03-28-2005, 01:50 PM
Lani McGregor
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Origin of COE as compatibility measure in studio glass

Henry (you up yet?),

Dan tells me that you guys never talked about COE in the '60s in Madison.

He also sez that he thinks Harvey was (maybe) the first to import the German color bars, but he also never remembers hearing about COE in relation to those.

Where did this COE thing first come into studio glass? Specifically as it relates to compatibility? Any recollection?

-Lani
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 03-28-2005, 04:52 PM
Henry Halem Henry Halem is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Kent, OH
Posts: 1,418
Henry Halem is on a distinguished road
Where, When and Who?

Harvey? not a chance. Dan should remember Barber was doing work with batch at Madison when we were there. Just got off the phone with Fritz and he believes it was probably Chihuly in about 67-68 that brought back color bars from Germany. Fritz knew about COE in 65 in Iowa and then when he got to Madison did work there with Barber on making glasses using The Schole's book Modern Glass Practice as the bible along with Weyl's book. Barber was the real whiz with the glass calculation though. He, Barber may have been doing glass calc. prior to 65 but we have no way of knowing as he's dropped off the face of the earth. Barber was doing his batching in 68 when I was there. So there really is no definitive answer to your question. A bottle of single malt might help me in doing more research though.

Last edited by Henry Halem; 03-28-2005 at 04:55 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 03-28-2005, 06:27 PM
Lani McGregor
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Quote:
Originally posted by Henry Halem
Harvey? not a chance. Dan should remember Barber was doing work with batch at Madison when we were there.
Yes, Dan still has those brain cells. And how could we forget Barber? He was production manager here for years. Bullseye’s own Raymond Babbitt.
Quote:
Barber was the real whiz with the glass calculation though. He, Barber may have been doing glass calc. prior to 65 but we have no way of knowing as he's dropped off the face of the earth.
Now, now, be kind. Portland, Oregon (where Mr B still babbles) is not “off-the-face-of-the-earth.” I have it on good authority that it is three ‘burbs better than “Bum**** Nowhere”.
Quote:
Barber was doing his batching in 68 when I was there. So there really is no definitive answer to your question. A bottle of single malt might help me in doing more research though.
Do you want that with a side of Jerk sauce or neat?

Seriously, there must be records – somewhere – as to when the color bars started being schlepped according to COE. Do you have any old product catalogues? Anyone else? Or are they all in Marvin’s attic?
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 03-28-2005, 10:18 PM
Pete VanderLaan's Avatar
Pete VanderLaan Pete VanderLaan is offline
The Old Gaffer
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Chocorua New Hampshire
Posts: 19,249
Pete VanderLaan is on a distinguished road
Robert Held made clear reference to C.O.E. in the '67 NCECA papers he did on phosphate opals. Dudley Gibberson was also referring to it in 67. I do think Fritz was Dudleys source and inspiration.. Paul Manners did his Custom Made to Fit article for Al Lewis's old magazine but it was always referred to as Linear expansion Co-efficient (L.E.C.) which is much more correct. It also appears in Morey and Scholes as Henry suggested. Dan was the first I recall making the suggestion that viscosity was explaining a lot about fit although Nick Labino was totally tuned into it from the getgo. I wish I still did single malts.

Dale did not bring kugler in until '73 actually and talked Benheim into handling it. Then Littleton got it and started selling it and Benheim returned it all in disgust. I first saw it when John Bingham was carrying it around in a mailing tube he brought from Orrefors. John had been a student at Goddard with Billy Happel and had spent a summer at Orrefors. That was in 1971, considerably earlier than Dale's effort to supply the RISD Students. If you'll remember RISD had that catalog with the melt samples and the barrels of SODA and LIME on the cover. That was '73.

No one actively talked about C.O.E. then. It was like this magic Isotoner stuff where "One size fits all"....except for the bright Reds and yellows, and all of those awful hotdog colors which fit nothing.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 03-28-2005, 10:54 PM
Henry Halem Henry Halem is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Kent, OH
Posts: 1,418
Henry Halem is on a distinguished road
I have a vague recollection of Joel Myers having Kugler bars earlier than 73 but I couldn't swear to it. I'll try and contact him to find out. It would be intereresting to try and find out who did actually bring them in first.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 03-28-2005, 11:20 PM
Rick Sherbert's Avatar
Rick Sherbert Rick Sherbert is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Washington D.C. area
Posts: 731
Rick Sherbert is on a distinguished road
I sat with Fritz and Kent Ipsen a few years back at VCU and got s-faced on some good whiskey and listened to them tell stories and wishing I had a tape recorder. The old timers aren't going to be around forever and it would be really nice to have a record (even anecdotal) of what happened in the early days, like when did Kugler arrive, who brought it in and who really did throw the trout into the Penland furnace....
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 03-29-2005, 12:15 AM
Tom Littleton Tom Littleton is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 78
Tom Littleton is on a distinguished road
kugler

The story I always heard was that Kugler came to the US when David Hopper brought it back from Germany and got C & R Loo to import & sell it. The only thing I'm certain of is that HKL got into the business of importing and selling it as early as 81 and certainly was doing so in 83. I'd have to ask him if he brought any back for his own use before then. I think he was back and forth to Europe almost every year or so during the late 60s and 70s. He spent alot of time in Frauenau and it's not all that far from where Herr Kugler was.

I never heard of Benhein selling Kugler. They did sell Zimmerman and gave up after Olympic got some. However, at the time, one of the people at Benhiem also told me that they had serious safety concerns about the Zimmerman.
__________________
Tom@SPB
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 03-29-2005, 01:13 AM
Durk Valkema
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Concerning Kugler colour bars I remember dragging loads over in January '68 when Sybren Valkema was the Visiting professor in Glass at Madison teaching "European techniques" and introducing tricks like uberfang and underfang with colour bars among other tricks.
Conpatibility with the e-glass was an issue, Harvey was melting a batch from Erwin in his own shop that worked better.

Last edited by Durk Valkema; 03-29-2005 at 01:19 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 03-29-2005, 01:35 AM
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
This is like a trip down memory lane! I know we had our hands on some Kugler as early as '70 or '71. I don't know if we were getting it sent directly from Germany or from some other source. CRLoo was the earlist supplier that I can remember. I know there were times when we got a bulk order together with the University students and got straight from the factory. I think I still have a few chunks with those really old labels.
David Hopper was the first person I saw blow glass who knew what he was doing. We were just messing around until then.
I know Harvey had lots of Kugler around his shop and made pick up cups in '79. We certainly knew about fit and expansion before that and did lots of calculations to increase and decrease "LEC". Paul Manners paper was biblical material.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 03-29-2005, 08:02 AM
Henry Halem Henry Halem is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Kent, OH
Posts: 1,418
Henry Halem is on a distinguished road
The imperfection of memory

First of all it's Bendheim non Benheim. Kugler bars came here before Loo ever started importing. The only way you could get it was to order directly. You had to go to the Customs office and pick it up. If the person in customs didn't like you for some reason they made you pay 7% duty if you didn't look like a hippy you could just sign for it.
Durk, that batch that Erwin melted at Harvey's was a black and a white. Erwin made the most fantastic pieces of German expressionistic glass I ever saw. As I recall the glass was very and I mean very soft but for a reason, it all devitrified into a slimmy mass. David Hopper worked with Erwin in Germany and did make some fantastic work. I remember his white scultural pieces very much influenced by Erwin. In my estimation Erwin was a very important figure in the American glass studio movement and is not given enough credit. I will be in Penland this summer and if HKL is up to it I will go and pay him a visit and of course try and jog his memory of that time. Of course TL can do that now if cares to.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 03-29-2005, 09:02 AM
Lani McGregor
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Hey, the dog's running off with my thread ...

What I’m still digging for - more even than the origin of Kugler importation - is where specifically in time COE/LEC came into the studio glass vocabulary as a term synonymous with compatibility.

Were the early Kugler bars referred to by a specific LEC? Were they marketed that way by C&R Loo et al?

When Hugh mentions knowing about fit and expansion, how was that measured? Theoretically, by calculation? Measured with a dilatometer? Or a number provided by a manufacturer? Were the early clear studio batches designed to fit Kugler? If so, how was that fit measured?

Was SPB the first commercially available batch in the US studio glass scene? What was it designed to fit? How was the "fit" measured?

In Europe what had Kugler been designed to fit?

To my knowledge, the American factories (Fenton etc) never used color bars, but melted their own color. How did/do they measure the fit/mismatch of their color?

Anyone know the date/issue of the Manners article in what Pete calls “Al Lewis’s old magazine” – was that “Studio”?

Incredible what that first cup of coffee will do to you.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 03-29-2005, 10:37 AM
Jon Myers's Avatar
Jon Myers Jon Myers is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Portland OR
Posts: 622
Jon Myers is on a distinguished road
I love this kind of thread.... I heard that Spruce was formulated to fit K61(white), is that true? As I'm reading this I'm thinking we're missing the boat by not having an organized oral history of the studio movement early days while we still can. Since we have the attention of a lot of smart folks here online we should put together a set interview questions and interviewees.
Some of the people who were instrumental were not book writers so their footprints will fade as the people who walked by, and directly behind them die off. One of the neat things about the internet is that there is a reader of this board within 100 miles of almost every major glass figure I can think of (which is not that many as I an new to this and don't know who did what 20 years ago hence the need for something like this(for me at least)) I would be willing to travel in the wintertime to work on something like this and I'd imagine that there are others who would like to get in on the fun....I'd love to have an excuse to talk to some of these folks....

Last edited by Jon Myers; 03-29-2005 at 11:18 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 03-29-2005, 11:10 AM
Pete VanderLaan's Avatar
Pete VanderLaan Pete VanderLaan is offline
The Old Gaffer
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Chocorua New Hampshire
Posts: 19,249
Pete VanderLaan is on a distinguished road
Scholes made the only presentation that the studio movement used. Books like Morey simply weren't being read. The early Kugler had NO references to expansion factors. It just magically fit. Expansion really entered the mainstream as something to measure after Paul's article. Again, Nick would always say he didn't know why high lead glasses had such tolerance, just that they did. Once Nick made the initial SP batch formula ( I believe SP92), expansion and compatibility became common in discussions in private shops, but not much in the schools that continued to say things like "It's OK to put the purple over the yellow but not the yellow over the Purple". In any of my time at Pilchuck- 77-78 it was never mentioned once. but the private shops that made their own color knew. I don't think at the time that private shops were much into casting and so the annealing- viscosity issues were not on the table. The Manners article really brought it upfront. These days if I talk about measuring viscosity, people's eyes glaze over.

Sorry about Bendheim. I really couldn't remember the spelling and tried it both ways. I do remember them having color rods way before Loo though. If it was Zimmermann, it's possible. At that time Zimmermann was flakey, cordy and sometimes stone ridden. We said it had character. I always liked their colors better than Klaus's.

I brought a load in once thru a friend stationed in Oberamagau and he was to ship us about 40 KG. His garage caught fire and the whole thing turned into one big block which he shipped us anyway. We would whack off chunks with a big chisel. I remember the airfreight and customs part too.

But Lani, why the interest outside of the fact that you guys have a proprietary interest and don't really think L.E.C. is all that critical compared to viscosity- which may be because you tend to work with big long flat sheets that can really drag themselves around a lot.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 03-29-2005, 01:52 PM
Henry Halem Henry Halem is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Kent, OH
Posts: 1,418
Henry Halem is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally posted by Jon Myers
I love this kind of thread.... I heard that Spruce was formulated to fit K61(white), is that true?
Not true!
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 03-29-2005, 02:00 PM
Lani McGregor
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Quote:
Originally posted by Pete VanderLaan
The early Kugler had NO references to expansion factors. It just magically fit.
Magic? During the time when Hopper visited the Eisch factory in 1969 (per David this AM) they were testing for compatibility two ways:

- the thread pull test (which, as we all know, measures the differences between glasses based on the combined factors of their viscosity and their expansion)

- a softening point test (which, not to insult anyone’s intelligence here, is also an indicator of viscosity).

I’d assume that Kugler - located so close to Eisch - if he was testing for compatibility at all, was using similar methods. But that’s an assumption. Maybe he was using magic. As you state, it appears that he was NOT using LEC.

Quote:

Expansion really entered the mainstream as something to measure after Paul's article.
Again, I’d love to find this article. Got a date/issue number?


Quote:

But Lani, why the interest outside of the fact that you guys have a proprietary interest and don't really think L.E.C. is all that critical compared to viscosity- which may be because you tend to work with big long flat sheets that can really drag themselves around a lot.
I’m not sure what you mean by “proprietary interest”. Can you explain?

And I’m also not real clear on what “big long flat sheets” have to do with it.

As to our not thinking LEC is critical, that’s NOT what Dan’s been saying. His sole argument is that it’s only half the story and has oddly become a standard with the inherent problems of all over-simplifications.

Why the interest?

A) material science/history curiosity

B) having to deal with the confusion/suspicion that continually results (what you call “eyes glazing over”) in trying to insert viscosity into the compatibility discussion.

C) marital discord: the other day as Dan was banging his head yet again against the kitchen wall trying to clarify LEC/viscosity relationships to my dull (and hugely unscientific) brain, I shrieked back at him in my best Fishwife voice “Aren’t you going to feel like an asshole if it turns out that this problem of equating the COE with compatibility really got going when you and that lame-ass ex-partner of yours wrote that stupid book in ’83 and suddenly [at least in our corner of the market] it was all “COE 90 glass and COE 86 glass” blah blah blah. Now that I’m hearing it’s all Paul Manners’ fault, I just need to find Mrs Manners and see whether LEC screwed up her marriage too.

So, where’s this article?
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 03-29-2005, 02:00 PM
Steven O'Day Steven O'Day is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: portland oregon
Posts: 263
Steven O'Day is on a distinguished road
Bendheim carried Kügler before Loo, but had a falling out about business practices. They picked up Zimmerman somewhat later, but Zimmerman went through a period of really awful quality control which was straightened out. They were also carrying Wiesenthalhütte which I believe at that time was made primarily for pressing jewels and other things and was not really made to be compatible. Eventually Bendheim was just not too interested in hassling with color anymore and gave it up.

I think the Swedish factories use the bars, but I don't know if this is a recent thing or not.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 03-29-2005, 03:20 PM
Durk Valkema
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Harvey and Erwin played around with the black and white while Erwin was there autumn '67. I distinctly remember clear glass in Harvey's shop spring '68, I will check.
Most factories' in Europe melted there own colours and made bars on the side for own use (at Orrefors Sven Palquist 'Colora" series in fuga technique 1953, and Gunnar Cyrén "Pop" goblets from 1966) but used Kugler, Zimmerman and others as well and simply adjusted the clear base to fit. Leerdam used to make bars for there own use. Donated the remaining 3-ton of it to the school later on.
I will check my father's notes to find out more and talk with the Leerdam chemist. The big change in Leerdam came after the war when the tableware production was automated and crystal production reduced. They did have a small test/colour furnace in the back of the crystal furnace though. This is where my father experimented with his students of the glass school (1943-52) and where he learned glass blowing himself.
As to compatibility, the early morning test was the thread pull, followed by the cylinder cut and tested after it annealed on the belt for 3 hours. For precise dating I will have to do some research.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 03-29-2005, 03:37 PM
Lani McGregor
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
So - Hi, Durk! - was a connection between LEC and compatibility of glasses part of the discussion in European glass factories (then or now?) to your knowledge?
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 03-29-2005, 06:53 PM
Pete VanderLaan's Avatar
Pete VanderLaan Pete VanderLaan is offline
The Old Gaffer
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Chocorua New Hampshire
Posts: 19,249
Pete VanderLaan is on a distinguished road
well, I still have the article and I will copy it for you. I will have to find it however but I know which room it is in. It does make a gross error in that Paul used the English and Turner numbers which have really done a very good job of standing the test of time BUT he then included the Winkelmann and Schott numbers for colorants as well. Those numbers were created for the enamelling industry and utilized an entirely different range in which to measure the expansions. They comedy of errors was compounded by Glassnotes using those numbers as well and they don't have anything to do with the real world. Simply put, there are no values for metallic oxides that are used as colorants. Industry never cared since they never planned to case colors with clear as a production item.

I really think that L.E.C. works so well for glass blowers that the viscosity issues have just about never concerned them. Not many people make the connection between viscosity and annealing ranges in thinner ware. In casting, you guys have to anneal forever , only to open the kiln and find the piece cracked which tends to make one ponder the issues at hand a good deal more. There is a lot going on. Glassblowers really get instant gratification and when things don't fit, usually you know pretty quickly. In that capacity, I don't think that Dan's observations about viscosity being the flip side of the coin will ever gain much traction. That is not the same as saying that the observations aren't correct, I think they are.

Where I think the problem lies, is in the gross generalization that such things as "96" guarantee you a clear blue sky and great sailing. I was just talking to Henry about a zinc sulphide cad sel red that is in the last edition of GlassNotes. It is a very nice red, but the L.E.C. is about 114. Cad sels really have to have at least three percent zinc in them to work well, or at least I've never seen one work with less zinc than that. That in itself is OK but if you want to make that glass color into a 96 as well, it's going to be kind of stiff to work while the clear is fairly runny. That tells me something about the likelyhood of mixing those glasses in really thick pieces as being problematic. Theyu do however work well in blown ware.

As to Mrs Manners, She and Paul long ago divorced and the last time I had heard a thing from Paul, he had quit glass and was teaching kindergarden and playing beach volleyball.. Then he vanished entirely. Anyone knowing his whereabouts, please tell me. I haven't heard a word since 1986.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 03-29-2005, 07:19 PM
Pete VanderLaan's Avatar
Pete VanderLaan Pete VanderLaan is offline
The Old Gaffer
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Chocorua New Hampshire
Posts: 19,249
Pete VanderLaan is on a distinguished road
Glass Art Magazine August 1973. Great issue. the article talks about matching "Drykiln Crystal A" cullet. Also a very nice picture of Kathie Bunnell and an ad for bullseye glass selling opal colors and clear colors for 1.85 sq ft. Also Bob Biniarz teaching a summer class at the Archie Bray Foundation.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 03-29-2005, 07:43 PM
Lani McGregor
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Quote:
Originally posted by Pete VanderLaan
Glass Art Magazine August 1973. ...an ad for bullseye glass selling opal colors and clear colors for 1.85 sq ft...
OK, Pete, now we are into magic: Bullseye wasn't founded until 1974.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 03-29-2005, 11:44 PM
Tom Littleton Tom Littleton is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 78
Tom Littleton is on a distinguished road
HKL

Henry,
HKL won't get back from Florida for at least a couple more days. He's had a fun winter trying to rebuild his apt and gallery that the hurricanes blew away but now my mom wants to get back to NC. Soo.. It'll be a little while fore I can ask him anything.

As for the original formulations of the labino formula othewise known as sp batch, and again this is as I remember, Nick gave us the original formula as a "chemical" formula and not a list of materials. We had to convert it to a list of materials and we had our first test melt run at Penland. Bill Worchester was there at the time and It did not melt well. We got a different mesh silica and added the Lithium at Labino's suggestion. With those changes, we ended up with the formula now known as the 92. The 92 turned out to be less than Ideal. Sooo.. The expansion was lowered and I always thought we had tried to match the Kugler 61 as it was the most popular color. However, I was not the one that was actually doing the work. This new batch formula had a theoretical expansion of 87 so that is what we called it.
__________________
Tom@SPB
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 03-30-2005, 08:03 AM
Henry Halem Henry Halem is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Kent, OH
Posts: 1,418
Henry Halem is on a distinguished road
The original SP had very high Lithia as you say suggested by Nick but because the viscosity was so low it ate everyones tanks and pots like pak man. You reduced the lithia and voila SP87.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 03-30-2005, 09:02 AM
Robert Mickelsen Robert Mickelsen is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Melbourne Beach, Florida
Posts: 553
Robert Mickelsen is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Glassblowers really get instant gratification and when things don't fit, usually you know pretty quickly. In that capacity, I don't think that Dan's observations about viscosity being the flip side of the coin will ever gain much traction.
Pete, as a flameworker who is accustomed to much more instant gratification than even glassblowers get I want to respectfully disagree here. I am *very* interested in this thread and am following it closely. There have been issues with borosilicate glass fits that justify the validity of viscosity as a factor in fit, even in low-expansion borosilicate glass. For instance, there is an opal green that is notorious for crackling when incased. But the measured LEC is dead-on that of clear boro glass. Why doesn't it fit? The only answer, and what I have been telling students for years myself, has to be variations in the viscosity curve of each glass.

Fascinating discussion folks. Please continue...
__________________
Robert Mickelsen
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 03-30-2005, 09:08 AM
Bruce Troeh's Avatar
Bruce Troeh Bruce Troeh is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Independence, Missouri
Posts: 117
Bruce Troeh is on a distinguished road
origin of COE

While Iowa State still has the glass facility it no longer offers glassblowing except through the Glasblowers Guild. I started in 1977 learnign (sp) about formulating batch and calculating COE with Dr. David Martin. At the time I remember one of the grad students had purchased a box of kugler color I dearly wanted to use. Our batch was 111 - 113 COE. I do remeber a few broken pieces.
I've got a box of kugler to play with now but I'm using 104 so it still sits. BTW. Bruce
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:20 PM.


All published comments within these message boards are the opinions of its contributor and does not represent
the opinion(s) of the owner(s) of this website. Please see the Terms of Use file for more details.

Books to Help Artists Avoid Online Scams: Top 10 Email Scams | Social Media Scams

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© CraftWEB.com. Opportunity Network. 2008. All Rights Reserved.