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Old 11-12-2012, 06:03 AM
Travis Frink Travis Frink is offline
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Pink enamel white?

Can somebody explain why my enamel white rod has pink concentric rings and turns/is pink where it has chipped on the outside surface? I understand the rings are there from gathering but am curious why pink? A simple chemical explanation? It looks white when blown out with no significant traces of the pink or rings.
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Old 11-12-2012, 10:03 AM
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Lead Arsenate in mild reduction. It's about 6.5 % arsenic after all. That's what makes it dense. The sweet smell is your brain being attacked by the stuff. Really. No Kidding. The powder is the worst. If you can smell it, You're being hurt.
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Old 11-12-2012, 10:03 AM
Andrew Boatman Andrew Boatman is offline
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I recently picked up some white cane (R-61) for ornaments. It is white in the cane. After annealing the white looks light pink. Very odd I thought.
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Old 11-14-2012, 06:23 AM
Travis Frink Travis Frink is offline
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Pete
Thanks for the background on this. And for the reminder.
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Old 11-14-2012, 07:58 AM
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Pink vs. white.
The pink is R-61 cane
The white is K-61 size two frit
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Old 11-14-2012, 08:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Boatman View Post
I recently picked up some white cane (R-61) for ornaments. It is white in the cane. After annealing the white looks light pink. Very odd I thought.
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Old 11-14-2012, 08:15 AM
Travis Frink Travis Frink is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Boatman View Post
Pink vs. white.
Looks like some pink in both of those. Hmmm. Interesting. I use mostly Gaffer and it usually shows all white on finished pieces as far as ive noticed. I may go back and take a closer look at some older stuff to see if there is any pink on there. Definately none I can see on powdered work.
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Old 11-14-2012, 08:24 AM
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More oddity, I have can't figure why the glass keeps moving toward the ground when I forget to turn the pipe.
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Old 11-14-2012, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
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More oddity, I have can't figure why the glass keeps moving toward the ground when I forget to turn the pipe.
I suspect you are simply not aware of the gravity of the situation.
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Old 04-04-2017, 09:28 AM
Rich Arentzen Rich Arentzen is offline
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We have been noticing a creaminess to our kugler white and we are trying to identify why it is happening. It seems to happen in the annealer, since pieces that we knock off at the bench are pure white. We have used different GHs as well with different gas/air ratios. We have tried overlays and on a collar. Thoughts? Is gaffer white more stable than the Kugler?
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Old 04-04-2017, 10:50 AM
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I suspect you are simply not aware of the gravity of the situation.
Gravity not just a good idea it's the law.
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Old 04-04-2017, 12:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Arentzen View Post
We have been noticing a creaminess to our kugler white and we are trying to identify why it is happening. It seems to happen in the annealer, since pieces that we knock off at the bench are pure white. We have used different GHs as well with different gas/air ratios. We have tried overlays and on a collar. Thoughts? Is gaffer white more stable than the Kugler?
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Creaminess is not something I can opine about. Enamel glasses are generally about 7% arsenic, near 35% lead, often less than 50% silica. It could be made using antimony, is occasionally made with tin, sometimes coupled to titanium.
It is toxic, gasses off easily and smells sweet. The powder is the worst giving a good headache if you work with it outside a hood.
Mark Peiser and I have been working towards a different enamel. We started back in the 2013 color class but dropped that ball . We have returned to it in the last three months and went from talk to making tests. Mark has done about 40 melts at this point. I have been sent various samples to run through testing. Once it has gotten to where it meets the basic needs, we turn to melting in a different furnace and in larger pots which often changes things. Then, making it into rod changes things again. We're getting pretty close to the different furnace stage. If the stuff passes all the test requirements, it goes out to a few shops for evaluation- mostly crazy filigrana people. If it gets past that, then we start to make the stuff. We're both quite excited about it. Amazing density, good viscosity, good fit and non toxic. Not having arsenic around is something I really look forward to.
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Old 04-04-2017, 01:01 PM
Rich Arentzen Rich Arentzen is offline
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Keep me posted. No thoughts on what might cause a cased piece of enamel white to change in the annealer. Anyone have experience with gaffer white?
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Old 04-05-2017, 12:34 AM
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While we're on the topic of white chemistry, what's the difference b/w enamel white and duro white? Obviously the duro has a higher softening point which keeps the fine lines in cane, but I've noticed that it's also a lot lighter (in weight) than enamel so I'd guess that it has little to no lead. It's really interesting stuff to work with since it's so crazy stiff. Any thoughts Pete? Others?
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Old 04-05-2017, 06:58 AM
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the literature from gaffer says the duro has no lead. The standard stuff is most likely about 35% lead and 7 percent arsenic. I would surmise that John is making something not dissimilar to what Mark and I have pursued. The prices are certainly different. Right now, I'm not going to go into what makes these things tick for developmental reasons. I do think you'll like the final product. We have no idea about pricing at this point but it is clear to us that the amount of standard enamels vastly outstrips the quantity of the duro that gets sold. I do want to run some through the crusher and see how it behaves. We continue to believe that being non toxic is an issue but inevitably price is what people pursue.
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Old 04-05-2017, 09:22 AM
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Pete,

I have noticed a shift in the way the gaffer white is behaving as of late. I don't remember it really turning clear/transparent super hot.

Now it does and it is somewhat amber/tea colored transparent and it happens pretty quick. Reminds me of what we where doing at you shop in color as it was hot at the class. It also strikes in strips instead of all at once which is also different. It is now slightly less dense compared to say 4 years ago. I still have white from 4 years ago and I can tell the difference between them sitting on the shelf. Under a florescent light the newer white when stacked next to each other were they touch has this sort of light green reflection to it. The older stuff it is light blue. I have no idea what that is about. Same location only difference is the bars. It is enough that someone without any knowledge of glass could walk up and tell you which bars where different.
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Old 04-05-2017, 12:12 PM
Rich Arentzen Rich Arentzen is offline
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We notice a tendency for the gaffer white to have small pin hole bubbles in it that show up when lit. Do others experience it? Our Kugler white turns creamy around the opening in one annealer but not in the other one. The temp is about the same. Does that make any sense?
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Old 04-05-2017, 12:37 PM
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I suspect maybe some zirconia is being used in the duro. It would certainly stiffen it up like that!

I'm looking into Zirconium, Tin, and Titanium as opacifiers for our little color furnace. We need a dense non fluorine white to get rid of the need for a double overlay.
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Old 04-05-2017, 12:42 PM
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In our earlier tests, we did have issues with the white going transparent and then being hard to get back to opaque. That's solved. I have some samples coming up from Mark today hopefully and they get tested right away. We would like to get the viscosity a bit tighter and I need to do Hagy Seals for expansion. Mark indicated last night that he had it so it no longer turned transparent at all. The formula is really quite amazing and defies most every convention.

Rich, I don't believe Kugler makes a non lead/arsenate glass. If they do, I'm clueless.

Scott the pinholes do make sense but it suggests less density as well.
One of the things that has to be bashed through is the scale of the melt. When you just make tiny samples, there are issues about surface area in the pot, sensitivity to atmosphere, multiple times loading the pot blah blah blah.. but it all has to work. If you recall, I did not really like doing anything less than 20 lbs in a test and I indeed had my reasons.
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Old 04-05-2017, 12:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jordan Kube View Post
I suspect maybe some zirconia is being used in the duro. It would certainly stiffen it up like that!

I'm looking into Zirconium, Tin, and Titanium as opacifiers for our little color furnace. We need a dense non fluorine white to get rid of the need for a double overlay.
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Old 04-05-2017, 02:20 PM
Michael Ahlefeldt-Laurvig Michael Ahlefeldt-Laurvig is offline
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Thank heavens that kugler rod could be made transparent-,the bubbles in the rod could be picked out with small scissors
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Old 04-05-2017, 02:43 PM
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I think he's talking pinhole size stuff michael. lots of it. really really tiny scissors.
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Old 04-05-2017, 02:54 PM
Michael Ahlefeldt-Laurvig Michael Ahlefeldt-Laurvig is offline
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Oh ok xxxx
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Old 04-05-2017, 03:41 PM
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Thanks Pete, I'll check it out.
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Old 04-05-2017, 04:16 PM
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Not on topic for white but on topic for pink, has anyone gotten a chrome pink to work in glass? It seems to be something you can do in ceramic glazes:

http://ceramicartsdaily.org/ceramic-...c-glaze-color/

Pete?
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Last edited by Jordan Kube; 04-05-2017 at 05:13 PM.
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