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Old 06-30-2017, 01:57 PM
Jordan Kube Jordan Kube is offline
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Off hand borosilicate goblet

I thought those of you that haven't seen this might find it interesting. Marcel Braun invited me down to his Starship project project over Memorial Day weekend. I got to work some borosilicate glass in the gloryhole. Some of you may remember him posting here years ago when he was developing it.

https://youtu.be/X5vIGwOrFKM

This was the result from last weekend:

http://www.windhomephotography.com/C...aun-Project33/
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Old 06-30-2017, 05:57 PM
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The forms are certainly nice Jordan and I would not dispute that. I would however take us back to 1976 when those of us pushing for better quality glass were ridiculed as "Bubble Chasers" simply because we could and the guys melting crap cullet could not. That persisted until the schools essentially broke into private shops for the members of the soft glass community who could afford it. That included Dale. Suddenly quality clear was something achievable which quite a few of us had known for years. I do recall Dale making me dump a 300 lb tank of flawless clear before anyone every saw it at Pilchuck because of the standard it would set.

So, OK it's Boro, so ****ing what? It looks very nice short of the seeds. Does that make it important beyond having a different bunch making essentially the same pieces in a low L.E.C.glass? Why should that be a big deal. Help me out?
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Old 06-30-2017, 06:44 PM
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I agree Pete, essentially, why would you do it like that?

The first question to answer was could it be done? A fun exercise.

After that you have to ask why. We are just in the beginning stages of exploring what's possible with the combined techniques and the material. It's easy for me to do what I know and then work out from there.
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Old 07-01-2017, 08:27 AM
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I like to think about "Why Glass?" when I think about a choice of materials in any work. Why not clay, or bronze, or just painted aluminum. So I have to think about the really special qualities that glass has that other mediums do not have, I think about something my father said to me about ten years ago.

"Glass is a chalice for light" is what he popped off with. I agree. I think that something glass can be is absolutely transparent. It can make it hard to tell where it really begins and ends if it's well melted and executed. Poorly melted and executed it doesn't look so good at least for me.

I made a body of work through the '80's and into the '90's that involved grinding away sections of what looked like a little kids version of a flying saucer and I made sure the quality of that glass was pristine. As sections were removed and then brilliantly polished it opened windows through the piece which stood up on an edge and at shows I watched again and again as people approached the work wit a single finger pointing at it ( not the middle one) and getting to the void portions and trying to touch what wasn't there. They were always surprised and frequently actually gasped. I have always loved that interaction my work would have with people I don't know. If those pieces had been laced with bubbles, it never would have worked.

That brings me back to the work you posted. It's very well crafted, The colors are lovely and the things are shot full of bubbles and they're bubbles that will never go away when melting boro cullet in a wire melter. It needs real furnaces and batch conditions to pull that off. Currently the refractories for that do indeed exist as well as the oxy fuel assists but when you think of the carbon footprint for that as well as the fuel costs and general punishment the worker will receive, I just have to scratch my head. The only advantage I can see is that it will be much harder to thermal shock.

Italians made work much better five hundred years ago with simple equipment. Being able to do it just because you can seems inadequate to me.
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Old 07-01-2017, 10:45 AM
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Franklin Sankar Franklin Sankar is offline
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Pete i look in awe at how long the Italian glass remain workable. do you know if it's the same glass they use now? If it's different why did they change it?
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Old 07-01-2017, 11:48 AM
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there are virtually thousands of different glasses. Given the Italian traditions, it would not surprise me to see formulations in use that are hundreds of years old. Technology has made it easier to get pure materials so some stuff changes . Even so, In Murano there are very good businesses that go around on Gondolas loading furnaces for clients at night. .
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Old 07-01-2017, 03:48 PM
Kenny Pieper Kenny Pieper is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete VanderLaan View Post

So, OK it's Boro, so ****ing what? It looks very nice short of the seeds. Does that make it important beyond having a different bunch making essentially the same pieces in a low L.E.C.glass? Why should that be a big deal. Help me out?
Hot sake!!!
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Old 07-01-2017, 04:12 PM
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certainly a big enough cup to get absolutely smashed
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Old 07-01-2017, 08:40 PM
Peter Bowles Peter Bowles is offline
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This could well be a case where the technology precedes its creative application. There are countless examples of new technology being the impetus for new developments in art and culture, sometimes spearheaded by the technicians themselves - more often by others who adopt and adapt and apply the technology in new and interesting ways. Who knows at this stage what may come of it.
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Old 07-01-2017, 09:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Pete VanderLaan View Post
The forms are certainly nice Jordan and I would not dispute that. I would however take us back to 1976 when those of us pushing for better quality glass were ridiculed as "Bubble Chasers" simply because we could and the guys melting crap cullet could not. That persisted until the schools essentially broke into private shops for the members of the soft glass community who could afford it. That included Dale. Suddenly quality clear was something achievable which quite a few of us had known for years. I do recall Dale making me dump a 300 lb tank of flawless clear before anyone every saw it at Pilchuck because of the standard it would set.

So, OK it's Boro, so ****ing what? It looks very nice short of the seeds. Does that make it important beyond having a different bunch making essentially the same pieces in a low L.E.C.glass? Why should that be a big deal. Help me out?
Gentle push here Pete, maybe it isn't a big deal, but maybe it will lead to something that is a big deal. I don't know. But it is a search, we don't know where the path leads until we take it. You yearn for the days of discovery and when people did things for themselves. Isn't there some of that here?
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Old 07-02-2017, 05:45 AM
Eben Horton Eben Horton is offline
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The seedy glass issue is rampant in the wire melter boro scene. But even with seeds, as long as it glows under a black light and you can smoke weed out of it, no one cares.
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Old 07-02-2017, 08:18 AM
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well, I think the big breakthrough would be melting boro seed free. That will in my estimation take an entirely different furnace which would be seriously expensive. That would certainly winnow the field. Currently there are people making seedy colors and charging 100 dollars a pound which impresses me. I'm not saying its good, but impressive.

it was always the case in school that the first goal was to try to duplicate something you really liked and imitation is important in measuring rote skills. Then the question became speaking with your own voice and that's far more difficult. I see that happening with some in conventional boro and I think that's great. I'm not sure what to do with the attempt to make things using conventional methodology normally found in a regular glass shop. As Eben points out, the bulk of the breakthroughs are in bongs. In 1971, it was reproducing Tiffany . In soft glass, Pumpkins seem to be the thing. Life is short.
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Old 07-02-2017, 09:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Bowles View Post
This could well be a case where the technology precedes its creative application. There are countless examples of new technology being the impetus for new developments in art and culture, sometimes spearheaded by the technicians themselves - more often by others who adopt and adapt and apply the technology in new and interesting ways. Who knows at this stage what may come of it.
******
It's a fair argument. If I look back at the genesis of the American studio movement, The John Mansville marbles in 1962 had just the same issues as the boro. It took over ten years to graduate from seedy glass to clean glass in the scholastic group and people who wanted better glass were ridiculed as "bubble Chasers". It was not the schools that made the change, it was the entrepreneurs and the schools did not like those people.

I still am a bubble chaser. I simply don't see how to get around them now unless the furnace technology changes and I'm still not clear on what it could contribute within the art world to have oven proof off hand glass.
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Old 07-02-2017, 11:19 AM
Dan Vanantwerp Dan Vanantwerp is offline
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Look Mom...no garage!

What's that one constant in the universe?

The older I get the less I like it.
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Old 07-02-2017, 06:42 PM
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Getting into the museum collection in Corning? That's a definite move.
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Old 07-02-2017, 08:36 PM
Peter Bowles Peter Bowles is offline
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Implying that contemporary glass has to be seed free to have any credence or validity is akin to saying that all contemporary ceramics has to be porcelain, or all jewellery 24ct gold. And I don't think you would actually agree with that.

I know next to nothing about working with boro, and so I'm watching this video with some fascination. Dans 'No Garage' comment rings particularly true and would open up a crazy realm of possibilities. I've got whole bodies of work that could adopt this new technology instantly - work that simply gets a little too tricky to make with soda. I could tolerate the seed to explore that work more fully.
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Old 07-03-2017, 07:36 AM
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As with glass, there are many formulations for good clays. I used to mix quite a number as a kid. Gold, I turn into chloride and make glass with it. Jewelry is not an area I spend much time on, but porcelain is not porcelain and stoneware is not stoneware. There's lots of cats to skin. I feel the same way about glass. Once you've gotten to work a decent clear glass your perspective might change. I don't know if you recall the gaffers at Steuben reading the news paper waiting for the glass to be just right.

But no, I don't like seeds. I would note that people complain about them bitterly if they show up in color rods. At Pilchuck, since they didn't know how to get rid of them, it was far easier to ridicule them and the people who wanted to get rid of them. I mixed a tank of one of my clear formulas in the brief time I taught there and it was perfect glass. Dale made us dump it out since he didn't want to have to be held to that standard.
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Old 02-23-2018, 12:51 PM
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Just watched Jordan's tumbler video and it made me wonder if it's possible to work pick up boro cane and work it in a hot softglass gh. Obviously you'd need a collar out of boro to pick up the boro rods. And a pipe that you didn't care much about since it seems working temps are ripping hot.

Thoughts Jordan?
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Old 02-23-2018, 01:23 PM
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I do recall Dale making me dump a 300 lb tank of flawless clear before anyone every saw it at Pilchuck because of the standard it would set
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Old 02-23-2018, 05:37 PM
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I take these long baths now to make my back feel better- really hot and really long and when I do I recall conversations with most of these guys. I recall that scene. I think teaching a class in clear right now and considering writing a book on process, which is what no one has, is intimate.

Every thing you do has an effect. Lately, I'm not stirring my glass, I should. Lately I don't double screen.I should. There's lots of things. It really depends entirely on what you're trying to get out of that 2lbs of glass. Teaching clear in many ways is far easier than teaching color, BUT if you don't learn clear first, you ran way past your mental supply lines. Henry's really right: "Glass is fragile" . I don't know enough ever.
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Old 02-23-2018, 07:30 PM
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Just watched Jordan's tumbler video and it made me wonder if it's possible to work pick up boro cane and work it in a hot softglass gh. Obviously you'd need a collar out of boro to pick up the boro rods. And a pipe that you didn't care much about since it seems working temps are ripping hot.

Thoughts Jordan?
I know you asked Jordan, Dave, but I would say that your collar doesn't have to be boro. You're going to crack it off at the jack line, so none of the soft glass is going to transfer.
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Old 02-23-2018, 07:42 PM
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I know you asked Jordan, Dave, but I would say that your collar doesn't have to be boro. You're going to crack it off at the jack line, so none of the soft glass is going to transfer.
Agree--but I think that if you get the boro cane hot enough to blow, a soft glass collar is going to have the viscosity of water at that temp. I'd want a boro collar for it to behave consistently, not for compatibility.
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Old 02-23-2018, 09:24 PM
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Agree--but I think that if you get the boro cane hot enough to blow, a soft glass collar is going to have the viscosity of water at that temp. I'd want a boro collar for it to behave consistently, not for compatibility.
i agree 100% there..

is that bro brah?!?!
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Old 02-24-2018, 09:51 AM
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Agree--but I think that if you get the boro cane hot enough to blow, a soft glass collar is going to have the viscosity of water at that temp. I'd want a boro collar for it to behave consistently, not for compatibility.
I see. Makes sense. I had not considered that. Just assumed compatibility issue.
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Old 02-24-2018, 10:38 AM
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Good luck with getting the Moil to crack off in the pipe bucket if itís boro.
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