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Old 06-25-2018, 11:59 AM
Josh Bernbaum Josh Bernbaum is offline
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The future of glass color in the EU

Any way to upload a PDF here that's more than 97 KB which seems to be the max allowable file size? I'd like to share a printout from InMurano, who organized a panel discussion at last GAS conf. about the future (or lack thereof) of melting colored glasses in the EU.
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Old 06-25-2018, 01:17 PM
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Better to post a link to it Josh. It certainly appears dire. I mean, if they're after cobalt its pretty much gone.
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Old 06-25-2018, 04:52 PM
Josh Bernbaum Josh Bernbaum is offline
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I'm not sure how to link to it, doesn't have its own URL or anything like that. It's just a PDF file I received thru email.
Any ideas?
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Old 06-25-2018, 05:56 PM
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You can upload to Vimeo.com with a free account and then post the link here to view it.
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Old 06-25-2018, 07:16 PM
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Please, and thank you. I would love to see this.
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Old 06-25-2018, 08:10 PM
Josh Bernbaum Josh Bernbaum is offline
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So this was a panel discussion on the last day of the GAS Murano conference.
Arsenic and Potassium Dichromate have already been banned. Someone said they are forced to use green chromium oxide for the time being and antimony for fining but no lead arsenates anymore. Cadmium (and cobalt?) maybe on horizon.
No mention of lead or fluorine in this discussion.
This would apply to the entire EU, including where Kugler and Reichenbach are.
From how the panelist from Effetre described it, the EU reps aren't into considering any exceptions, baghouse filtration or not. Hope this link works (click on the red PDF icon):

https://www.jmbglass.com/inmurano-eu-pdf
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Old 06-25-2018, 08:52 PM
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holy schniekies.... this is seriously bad....
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Old 06-26-2018, 06:24 AM
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It's ironic. effetre could only effectively survive if it leaves the EU and perhaps goes to China. I don't expect that to happen. The EU makes cases for stuff in landfills which is how they get around the notion of filters.

I was under the impression that cadmium was on the lists. Certainly in this country fluorine is considered a biggie.

But yeah, stock up. Gaffer will continue to make all of their colors right here in Portland.
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Last edited by Pete VanderLaan; 06-26-2018 at 07:56 AM. Reason: typo
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Old 06-26-2018, 07:21 AM
Scott Benefield Scott Benefield is offline
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Cadmium was, in fact, the focus of most of that panel discussion at the conference since that is the pending issue at the moment. Everybody on the panel (material scientists) was in agreement that a strict no-exceptions ban on cadmium was pretty much an inevitability.

Needless to say, it wasn't a very cheerful discussion. The only alternatives for color generation being put forward were around silver, which can show a variety of hues.

The notes that Josh has were prepared in advance of the presentation and handed out afterwards, so they aren't really a transcription of the discussion itself.
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Old 06-26-2018, 07:54 AM
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you and I have talked about the panel quite a bit. The trouble I see with Silver is that it's like herding cats to use it. It's the only element which can actually show every color in the spectrum but it really works best drawn from the pot under stringent atmospheric control, rate of draw, how it's drawn, blah blah blah. Cadmium and selenium colors are much more like shooting fish in a tuna can.
These days, I'm just working full pots of silver glasses with no clear at all and the variety of color is really remarkable. I don't think it will convert well into Murrini though.

I do think the EU is shooting itself in the foot though. Baghouse and Torit filters are quite effective as Gaffer has shown for twenty years now.

Where does lead usage show up for the EU as a concern?
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Old 06-26-2018, 08:46 AM
Josh Bernbaum Josh Bernbaum is offline
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I'm really surprised Pb doesn't seem to be in the EU's regulatory crosshairs (yet anyway). That was the first thing here in the states, right? Sorry I missed getting to say hi at the panel discussion, Scott. We sat a few seats apart but there was someone talking your ear off both before and after the lecture. Hope you had a good time at the conference.
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Old 06-26-2018, 10:36 PM
Mitcheal Veenstra Mitcheal Veenstra is offline
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wow, thanks for posting the article...

That's going to be a mess when the various bans go through, especially since they won't allow baghouse filtering for anyone even though they've shown to be the right way to clean things up and still produce.

Feels like we are soon to be in the realm of sole supplier for yet more things in glassblowing. This feels huge, a sort of turning point perhaps, and I'm just a little guy looking at it from my tiny studio practice.
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Old 06-27-2018, 02:16 AM
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Sorry I missed seeing you, Josh. I think the crackdown on lead started many years ago in Europe, although it might not be a total ban--the Germans seem to use a lot of it in their colors. But that's what led to the development of Glasma's barium glasses (which were marketed as "non-lead crystal" in the glasriket).

But it sounds like the new regs about heavy metals are going to be much more unforgiving. Dan Schwoerer began arguing for baghouse technology from the audience at that lecture, claiming 99% eliminations, but it wasn't received well by the panel. 0% emissions was their preferred tolerance. Dan pivoted then, and claimed that diesel emissions posed a far greater health hazard than stray bits of cadmium floating through your neighborhood...but that didn't go down well, either.

It could be the case that they're making the good the enemy of the perfect. Where does that end? As was mentioned, cobalt was on their list of potential hazards. In the notes that Josh linked to, they mention the possibility of re-melting cadmium-bearing cullet (essentially exporting toxic emissions to non-EU countries) as long as there were 0% emissions from that.
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Old 06-27-2018, 08:46 AM
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Based on the work Durk did on microgram release per hr in the tank or pot as directly related to furnace temps, I can't see that occurring. One has to wonder why Fero is so secretive about even admitting what they melt in this country. Hammond got out of the lead monosilicate biz here a few years back although Hammond Lead of Shanghai sells it readily.

It's my impression that Cadmium is far more difficult to filter than any of the other metals in its entirety. It is not difficult to ruin a torit filter and they are expensive. Scott, did they make mention of Selenium as well? That's pretty volatile stuff as well.

This event is why Mark went to Italy with a non toxic ultra dense white for filigrana but there are issues.

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Old 06-27-2018, 05:37 PM
Scott Benefield Scott Benefield is offline
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No mention of selenium that I recall, but the panel (academics for the most part, with I think one person from industry) didn't provide much of an overview to start with. They just assumed that the audience was up to speed already with the issues that manufacturers were facing regarding emissions. It was also focused on the future of glass melting on Murano, which encompassed current EU regulations, but didn't really provide any kind of a global perspective on these issues.

It's hard for me to imagine a world without red, orange and yellow. As Pete points out, there are all sorts of issues with the conceivable alternatives (nanoparticles of silver) which, while theoretically possible, put them outside of the general run of factory production. I suspect that a back door will be found through parts of the world that aren't as environmentally scrupulous if the EU does pursue this with any kind of zeal.
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Old 06-27-2018, 06:09 PM
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well, the bottom line would be whether the EU allows it to be imported into the EU. I would assume that would include Gaffer. End of discussion.
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