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  #26  
Old 02-17-2021, 01:32 PM
Hugh Jenkins Hugh Jenkins is offline
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The only pilot I have seen that I liked, was a hand torch burner aimed into a tube cast in the burner housing block (not the burner head). Safely lit from outside the GH chamber, easy to turn off when the GH burner was up to ignition temp (a few minutes), could be plumbed from any propane source or clamped or hand held, and I would think easily flame spotted. I have seen similar setups on kiln burners where they make a lot of sense.
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  #27  
Old 02-17-2021, 02:40 PM
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I used to have this incredibly tiny venturi burner that I used as a pilot on the only gas annealer I've ever had. I have no idea where to get another. It was about 5 inches long and had this cute little 1/4 inch npt valve.

I'm thinking about gas bringing up my annealer to get around these obscene demand charges from the electric company. It has it's risks certainly. I'd run it with a BASO valve. The demand charge totals $17.00 everytime you exceed 4000 watts for 1/2 hour.

Ideas?
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  #28  
Old 02-18-2021, 09:57 PM
Eben Horton Eben Horton is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete VanderLaan View Post
I used to have this incredibly tiny venturi burner that I used as a pilot on the only gas annealer I've ever had. I have no idea where to get another. It was about 5 inches long and had this cute little 1/4 inch npt valve.

I'm thinking about gas bringing up my annealer to get around these obscene demand charges from the electric company. It has it's risks certainly. I'd run it with a BASO valve. The demand charge totals $17.00 everytime you exceed 4000 watts for 1/2 hour.

Ideas?
It would be a lot of work but you could build an annealer that is next to or behind your furnace, and have your flue exhaust into it. I worked out of a studio for a week a long time ago that had this and they had no electricity controlling their ovens. Just waste heat. It wasn’t Peter stealing from Paul either. There was a break in the stack and it was not “pulling” like a chimney does.
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  #29  
Old 02-19-2021, 10:29 AM
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Randy Kaltenbach Randy Kaltenbach is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eben Horton View Post
There was a break in the stack and it was not “pulling” like a chimney does.
This is interesting, but I can't quite wrap my head around it from your description. If you have a moment, would you please give a little more detail?
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  #30  
Old 02-19-2021, 11:08 AM
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Those things are really problematic. All I want is to use Gas to help bring it up to temperature and then kick over to electric. It's the 17 dollar penalty I need to avoid happening everyday the annealer gets turned on.

This is part of the problem right now in Texas as well. Distributors of electricity go out to bid the night before it's needed. Generators fight with constant low bids to get the next day's sales, often at a loss. There's no standby reserve guarantee generated power.
By staying off the national grid, Texas doesn't have to abide by interstate sales regulations or federal standards. . They were warned ten years ago that this was likely to happen. They ignored that and Abbott blamed the failure on Green energy supply. That was a lie. The fact is that the wind generators purchased for texas did not have turbine blades that can withstand freezing. Sweden, Denmark and Canada all have wind generators that perform admirably.
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Old 02-19-2021, 02:38 PM
Eben Horton Eben Horton is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Kaltenbach View Post
This is interesting, but I can't quite wrap my head around it from your description. If you have a moment, would you please give a little more detail?

There’s a vent at the top of the annealer with a kiln shelf that you slide over the opening to control the heat flow. Then there’s a baffle on the flue to stop heat flow to the annealer. There’s also a bypass opening when you want to “turn off” the annealer. A 2” thick slab of mizzou is elevated off the floor of the annealer to act as a heat sink.
Dirk Valkma developed this system based off of Roman furnaces.
Depending on how thick the mizzou is, you can have a desired turn down cycle.
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  #32  
Old 02-19-2021, 03:36 PM
Michael Ahlefeldt-Laurvig Michael Ahlefeldt-Laurvig is online now
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Yes will work , at least bringing it up t temperature as in Petes case. Trying to run it as an annealer temperature is much more difficult- usually not worth considering in my humble opinion
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  #33  
Old 02-19-2021, 05:13 PM
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I don't want the flue gasses in my lehr on a regular basis . There are issues. A short term gas burner will suffice. Dangerous enough.
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  #34  
Old 02-20-2021, 06:50 AM
Travis Frink Travis Frink is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Ahlefeldt-Laurvig View Post
Yes will work , at least bringing it up t temperature as in Petes case. Trying to run it as an annealer temperature is much more difficult- usually not worth considering in my humble opinion
It is quite common here in Japan. My good friend used a system similar to what Eben describes to bring the annealer up to temp and then help hold temp for the most part during the day. He also has Kanthal? coiled elements in the walls that keep a constant HOLD temp while working and control annealing after the day’s work is done and the flue dampers controlling hot air to the annealer are closed and exhausted heat is directed up and out of the building. The air flow really seems to allow thicker work to be annealed overnight (I saw no groovy colors with the polarizing lenses anyway) when similar work annealed in an electric only box in another (very careful studio) took a couple days.

Another friend anneals(?) his thin blown glass using only heat from the flue. I thought some of the thicker, more complex work I made there had some colors under the polorizing lenses. I think he could add an element or two and life would be better for him- not to mention the fact that he wouldn’t have to be babysitting his annealer all the time if the temp was a little high/low while working and the cool down/hold pattern at night. I do like that his annealer sits on top of the furnace so work goes in at chest level and you don’t get blasted in the face with hot air air every time you open the door to put something away. Not good for big heave stuff but great for production and small to medium work.

I’ve mostly seen fiber board shelves for floors but the new stuff seems to shrink with firing. I like the castable floor as a heat sink. Might not make overnight annealing an option though.
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  #35  
Old 02-20-2021, 08:02 AM
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I do not think it to be a good idea if you use batch glasses. That of course presumes that you have more than one furnace so you can batch while you blow. Otherwise, the downside in my case is that propane is heavier than air and you don't want the burner going out- which is why I inquired about the tiny pilot.
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  #36  
Old 02-20-2021, 10:32 AM
Tom Fuhrman Tom Fuhrman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete VanderLaan View Post
I used to have this incredibly tiny venturi burner that I used as a pilot on the only gas annealer I've ever had. I have no idea where to get another. It was about 5 inches long and had this cute little 1/4 inch npt valve.

I'm thinking about gas bringing up my annealer to get around these obscene demand charges from the electric company. It has it's risks certainly. I'd run it with a BASO valve. The demand charge totals $17.00 everytime you exceed 4000 watts for 1/2 hour.

Ideas?
google venturi burners, there are some small units available for about $20 that you may want to experiment with. Some of these have been used by metalsmiths for doing annealig.
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  #37  
Old 02-20-2021, 12:05 PM
Michael Ahlefeldt-Laurvig Michael Ahlefeldt-Laurvig is online now
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Hi Travis
Yes some things are common in Japan, I have worked a total of 15 months in Japan and I could write a book of my experiences
To start with they don't have a clue about anything technically- they cant find their rear ends using both hands. Ive seen the most stupid solutions to easy problems in my life in Japan. They copy western technology without having a clue how it works. I saw 1800 style coal fired English glass furnaces, complete with doors to scrape out coal, running on gas
If they are running flue gasses into annealers, they are with 100% probability don’t know what they’re doing
Just the fact that you are mentioning elements support this
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  #38  
Old 02-20-2021, 05:04 PM
Travis Frink Travis Frink is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Ahlefeldt-Laurvig View Post
Hi Travis
Yes some things are common in Japan, I have worked a total of 15 months in Japan and I could write a book of my experiences
To start with they don't have a clue about anything technically- they cant find their rear ends using both hands. Ive seen the most stupid solutions to easy problems in my life in Japan. They copy western technology without having a clue how it works. I saw 1800 style coal fired English glass furnaces, complete with doors to scrape out coal, running on gas
If they are running flue gasses into annealers, they are with 100% probability don’t know what they’re doing
Just the fact that you are mentioning elements support this
Yes, some crazy things go on here and everywhere. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn’t and there is a heck of a scramble to fix or adapt. Also 15 months is about the time period where you know enough to see the negatives but you still compare things to the framework of your native (culture or country). The next stage is seeing and understanding how and things things are that way. It’s a real thing. I’ve found it to be true after moving to and living in a number of different regions and countries over the years.

In my original comment, I was referring to heat leaving the furnace being diverted off to heat or help heat the annealer. It works for the studios I’ve seen using it. I’m not saying it’s the best way. One friend has been using the same elements in his annealer heated with heat leaving the furnace for over 20 years. The dampers are closed so heat and batch dust does not enter from the furnace when charging or the burner is turned up for some other reason. He expects it and the furnace we are rebuilding now to far outlast him.

As far as terminology (“elements”) goes, I learned a large part of what I know about glass and all the infrastructure involved in Japanese with no formal education or training per se and I do not translate each and every thing in my head so I really don’t know all the exact jargon. I just try to understand things in that situation and listen for what people want to say, not just the words being used (sure helps when listening to the news and following what’s going on in politics!). I try to get as close as I can with explanations (hence my long winded posts) and hope the common sense of other experienced minds can make sense of that. I do often notice that there is a general misuse of many words and phrases in “glass talk” (based on reactions from people with a lot more experience than I) and throughout all languages in general. I do my best to learn and use the words deemed correct in that situation. I’m happy to confirm or restate anything I say that is wrong or unintelligible. I’m here to learn and maybe share what little I know that might be of some use to someone else.
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  #39  
Old 02-20-2021, 06:35 PM
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I see it as a bunch of different approaches to making glass.

One of my favorite old old videos from Marvin Lipofsky was this Japanese guy demonstrating the chicken and the egg problem. He had a glass blowpipe and each time he gathered, the pipe got a bit shorter. When it finally became untenable to work with anymore, he took a god sized gather, blew it and swung it out to make a new long blow pipe. Wash rinse repeat.

When we were looking at pots for furnaces about ten years back, up pops the old pot set up used in German and English furnaces from around 1880. Big circular things with different color in each pot. The pot built up out of a massive pile of clay..Build a furnace around those pots. We were looking fo alternative to shipping pots to Shanghai instead of from Portland. We didn't do either.

So here are these strange, to us technologies for making glass. When The American approach was new, the Swedish approach was simply bizarre and is not in common use in this country today. Ann Warff use it and made American look at it. The early fulbright grants in Murano brought an entirely different approach to making glass in about 1971.

It all gets it done, right down to the Afghani approach in the late 1970's early eighties. No Doubt some work better for some things than others, but it get it done.

America was supposed to be the be all and the end all with this one person- one piece approach. How long did that last?
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  #40  
Old 02-21-2021, 09:51 AM
Tom Fuhrman Tom Fuhrman is offline
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Kokomo Glass replaced their furnaces about 10-15 years ago and went with the circular approach with numerous color pots. They are the oldest continuous flat art glass manufacturer in the US. They still manage to make $ and supply a large market worldwide. BTW, their first customer was Tiffany.
The Afghan approach was something that expresses the principal," Where there is a will there is a way."
Evidently there are still numerous companies using those large crucibles with the Snouts on them as I see there are Chinese companies still producing quite a few of them and I'm sure they are being used. Every local has it's own set of requirements and somehow we all adjust to make glass under all types of conditions.
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  #41  
Old 02-21-2021, 10:17 AM
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Somehow, Kokomo managed to evade that big regulatory sweep by the SHA groups back when Bullseye got picked apart. You still have companies like Fero which won't admit what they actually make. Triggs cautioned about that.

The snout type pot is marketed out of Korea for the turnkey furnaces for about $50K. They're one ton. They would work for a clear cullet operation if you had two and for the price, you can't beat it.

China makes some excellent AZS pots and we have them in the Shanghai operation. Smaller pots have been tried here with some serious issues. China, like the US, is maturing as they work at it. The weird problem often is the same, strange mud from the Yangtze river . It's always the mud somehow. I find that lack of reliability to be reassuring. They have this incredibly clean silica too.
It's the same story when you strip it all away when I think of the workers in Afghanistan, talking about what they make for tourists and what they love to make as well.
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Old 02-22-2021, 09:14 AM
Tom Fuhrman Tom Fuhrman is offline
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Pete, are you referring to the products made by the Samming Crucible factory? Is that the River mud ?
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  #43  
Old 02-22-2021, 01:42 PM
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It gets referred to constantly over the decades. LeClede actually ran through their particular deposit and it began to give them fits a number of years ago. I see it referred to in Hodkin and Cousins for pot formulas. Mono-T 9 was a great example of a mine run that finally played out, it just wasn't in the river. The Missouri river is viewed as a great place to look for them.

When you consider clays and their various makeups, they're largely silica and alumina but old clays apparently "Rot". I don't know quite what that means but it gives the goop great elasticity. It's certainly true for potters that they want their clay to age before using it. I've seen some potters ferment their clay in Oklahoma. Smells terrible.
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  #44  
Old 02-22-2021, 01:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Fuhrman View Post
Pete, are you referring to the products made by the Samming Crucible factory? Is that the River mud ?
***
I googled Samming and got nothing for hits beyond the rather interesting definition in the urban dictionary. In the dictionary it means

"To hit on your best friends girlfriend to get her to sleep with you."
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  #45  
Old 02-23-2021, 09:30 AM
Tom Fuhrman Tom Fuhrman is offline
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Pete: try this link; www.dqjmgg.com
I think that may get you there , they are in Zhejiang.
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  #46  
Old 02-23-2021, 11:59 AM
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Ah I did know of them indeed. We use AZS pots in Shanghai but these look good. They are normally greenware.
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Old 02-23-2021, 03:18 PM
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That’s interesting. Deqing Sanming give the body of the crucibles as >38% alumina and >51% silica. So clay? And an operating temperature of 1550 degC (2822 F).
Haw does that work?
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  #48  
Old 02-23-2021, 07:03 PM
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It can work. It's shocky, it runs on machine glass, not handblowns. China type clays are typical. Shorter lives.
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Old 02-24-2021, 08:06 AM
Travis Frink Travis Frink is online now
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I’ve seen the glass blow pipe. It’s old school here. I think there are two studios still doing that in Japan. One in Tokyo making globes for wind chimes- all day everyday.

The “snout type” crucibles (called ‘neko-tsubo’ ‘cat pots’) are pretty common here too. Real cool (temperature- no need for a pipe cooler in general) to gather out of and popular with schools and public access facilities and a lot of hand blown factories I think. One local started importing their crucibles from China a few years ago because they’re half price of Japan made. Glass quality (Ahem...) changed drastically but they do classes for hobbyists for the most part. Studios using them tend to have a working temp of 1250-1350C while standard ‘open pot’ crucible (standard in the US) seems to be 1050-1100C.
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Old 02-24-2021, 10:32 AM
Kenny Pieper Kenny Pieper is offline
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Quote:
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That’s interesting. Deqing Sanming give the body of the crucibles as >38% alumina and >51% silica. So clay? And an operating temperature of 1550 degC (2822 F).
Haw does that work?
Sean they have and make many different formulas.
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