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  #51  
Old 10-09-2019, 02:20 PM
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for alert readers everywhere, take note that I changed the thread headline. It has bothered me for some time and I think that removing failure makes it a bit easier to engage in. I don't think that GLASMA is at fault in this.
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  #52  
Old 10-10-2019, 08:45 PM
Art Freas Art Freas is offline
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Have you ever measured the COE on the second version of the System 96 Studio nuggets (not the Premium, or Premium 2.0) the version with the low/no Borax that came in the red print bags? Also has anyone measured the Oceanside?
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  #53  
Old 10-11-2019, 08:08 AM
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I don't measure C.O.E.'s
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  #54  
Old 10-14-2019, 12:59 AM
Art Freas Art Freas is offline
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Have you ever measured the COE on the second version of the System 96 Studio nuggets (not the Premium, or Premium 2.0) the version with the low/no Borax that came in the red print bags? Also has anyone measured the Oceanside?
Has anyone else measured this or measured this glass against any of the others?
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  #55  
Old 10-14-2019, 10:12 AM
Shawn Everette Shawn Everette is offline
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From what the hoard says, and anecdotal personal experience, the red "Studio 96" is 94, and so is the sheet.

If the Oceanside nuggets are following the flat compatibility trend, then they too should be a 94. D&L says "96 coe" while also saying "tested compatible to strict System 96 standards'. Oceanside itself is rather mum on the subject.

First load of Bomma goes in today, so the point is moot for me now.
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  #56  
Old 10-14-2019, 10:52 AM
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I only test materials that are relevant to my own work and I tend to make all my colors and clear myself. I only test other materials with a paying client. It's actually rather time consuming. It was on occasion that John C and I would test a glass partially because Gaffer and Co wanted to know and confirm and sometimes because we were both curious. John has pretty much retired now, and I'm nipping at his heels. It does seem to me that the general field needs to step up to the plate and not rely on us old folks. So far, I don't see that at all.
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  #57  
Old 10-14-2019, 11:00 AM
Shawn Everette Shawn Everette is offline
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Well unfortunately most of us young wippersnappers didn't have much of anyone to teach us proper compatibility testing. Majority got, "well did it break?" A few of us got, "oh, it's still together? Put it under the polariscope." And like you said, it's not like anyone wants to pay you to do it.
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  #58  
Old 10-14-2019, 03:59 PM
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well, relying on the manufacturers will give you a lot of hearthache since they just won't tll you the truth. It is I suspect the case that many don't actually test at all. The only one who actually tests is Gaffer and they don't give you the expansion, rather they engineer to have it match a 96 ( Spruce Pine is the standard) , except when it doesn't whiich fortunately is infrequent.

If they ever hold GAS at Corning again, I will consider giving a class on how one measures using the different methodologies. Josh Simpson and I did one back around 2006 I think limiting it to dilatometry and ring Testing. Dr Brill liked my dilatometer method. Including the hagy seal would be good but it's not the sort of class that lends itself to large audiences. Reading a Hagy seal means you are right over the polarimeter. I bet John would do that class with me. Corning is about the only way we'll ever get him back up here. We could split all those big bucks.
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  #59  
Old 10-14-2019, 04:37 PM
Eben Horton Eben Horton is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete VanderLaan View Post
well, relying on the manufacturers will give you a lot of hearthache since they just won't tll you the truth. It is I suspect the case that many don't actually test at all. The only one who actually tests is Gaffer and they don't give you the expansion, rather they engineer to have it match a 96 ( Spruce Pine is the standard) , except when it doesn't whiich fortunately is infrequent.

If they ever hold GAS at Corning again, I will consider giving a class on how one measures using the different methodologies. Josh Simpson and I did one back around 2006 I think limiting it to dilatometry and ring Testing. Dr Brill liked my dilatometer method. Including the hagy seal would be good but it's not the sort of class that lends itself to large audiences. Reading a Hagy seal means you are right over the polarimeter. I bet John would do that class with me. Corning is about the only way we'll ever get him back up here. We could split all those big bucks.
When is the last time you had a conversation with someone at richenbach? They test
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  #60  
Old 10-14-2019, 06:33 PM
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I haven't. The serious issue is with the clear cullets.
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  #61  
Old 10-14-2019, 08:22 PM
Art Freas Art Freas is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawn Everette View Post
From what the hoard says, and anecdotal personal experience, the red "Studio 96" is 94, and so is the sheet.

If the Oceanside nuggets are following the flat compatibility trend, then they too should be a 94. D&L says "96 coe" while also saying "tested compatible to strict System 96 standards'. Oceanside itself is rather mum on the subject.

First load of Bomma goes in today, so the point is moot for me now.
I always here the 94.1 number from tests done before the "improved System 96 Studio Nuggets" I am really curious to see if the improved low/no borax formula is still 94.1. My understanding is that Oceanside is producing that one. I am also curious to see if the Oceanside version is the same from an expansion perspective as the "Improved System 96 Studio Nuggets"
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  #62  
Old 10-14-2019, 08:55 PM
Shawn Everette Shawn Everette is offline
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From my understanding the "improved" was simply trying to drop the boric content cause it was eating everyone's crucibles. Raises hand.

The oceanside version was supposed to further drop the boric, at least in the nugget form. The flake showed to be about as caustic as the original studio.

They're not really releasing expansion numbers other than that it is still compatible with the sheet.
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  #63  
Old 10-15-2019, 09:28 AM
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From my understanding the "improved" was simply trying to drop the boric content cause it was eating everyone's crucibles. Raises hand.
*****
That was back when they blamed the crucible manufacturers making bad pots, all of them. That didn't last long as the furnaces began to dissolve too. If the Borax comes out, something else has to go in to get similar results- either lithium, nitrates or fluorine. The caking suggests fluorine to me and anyone with an electric kiln is not going to like that at all. At one point Rollin Karg was having troubles with his moly elements and he showed me his formula which contained Calcium Fluoride. I suggested he get it out of there and his problem stopped.

I find the borax/boric acid issue to be interesting. For me, adding Boric acid to a formula often came hand in hand with cords in a lead or soda base. Borax behaved differently which makes me want to examine the variance in volition loss comparing the two materials. It doesn't keep me up nights.
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  #64  
Old 10-15-2019, 09:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Freas View Post
I always here the 94.1 number from tests done before the "improved System 96 Studio Nuggets" I am really curious to see if the improved low/no borax formula is still 94.1. My understanding is that Oceanside is producing that one. I am also curious to see if the Oceanside version is the same from an expansion perspective as the "Improved System 96 Studio Nuggets"
*****
You can do a simple measurement your self doing a simple pull test between the two clears. Heat them both up in the box and make balls of each , weld them evenly and pull them out straight. If you get a straight cane, they have similar expansions. Once you have looked at it, anneal the cane and look again.
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  #65  
Old 10-15-2019, 09:43 AM
Rick Wilton Rick Wilton is offline
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this fixation on COE (LEC) seems counterproductive. It is MAYBE 50% of the equation. Even Spectrum (oceanside) is ditching the whole "96" thing. Calling the sheet line "oceanside compatible" Dan Schwoerer of Bullseye Glass. Describes it well here.

https://www.bullseyeglass.com/images...chnotes_03.pdf
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  #66  
Old 10-15-2019, 03:30 PM
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Dan's paper on the importance of viscosity is well known at this point and his points are valid particularly when it comes to casting but in blown ware, for the most part, expansion is still the big kid on the block.
I don't like the term C.O.E. because it stands for co-efficient of expansion , and I say "Of what? L.E.C. on the other hand stands for Linear expansion coefficient. That describes something.

If Oceanside is using that terminology regarding their own product, they would like to change the subject. The real question for the field is why there have to be so many clear cullets that are as different from each other as they are to the point of causing mismatch. Spectrum made three clears, none compatible with the other two. That to me is remarkable and hardly seems to promote the notion that they are serving the glass studios.
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  #67  
Old 10-15-2019, 06:45 PM
Josh Bernbaum Josh Bernbaum is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete VanderLaan View Post
*****
That was back when they blamed the crucible manufacturers making bad pots, all of them. That didn't last long as the furnaces began to dissolve too. If the Borax comes out, something else has to go in to get similar results- either lithium, nitrates or fluorine. The caking suggests fluorine to me and anyone with an electric kiln is not going to like that at all. At one point Rollin Karg was having troubles with his moly elements and he showed me his formula which contained Calcium Fluoride. I suggested he get it out of there and his problem stopped.

I find the borax/boric acid issue to be interesting. For me, adding Boric acid to a formula often came hand in hand with cords in a lead or soda base. Borax behaved differently which makes me want to examine the variance in volition loss comparing the two materials. It doesn't keep me up nights.
So I'm sure the nitrates aren't a silver bullet to replace lithium or fluorine, but what you said got me curious as to how much nitrate can go into a melt and not cause issues. Surely there is a limit, and I'm thinking of a mix in the next few weeks where I would like to increase nitrate content so just curious of the upper limits on percentages of that. I'm also wondering if the boric acid I have here is just redundant, or at least not necessary to have. I used to use it for the phosphates I mixed in SP, but only because that's what Nick at Penland had been using. And when I switched to Dave's formula as a starting point, I've just used the borax pentahydrate. There is a good amount in there, not sure I'd want to throw that in an electric furnace.
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  #68  
Old 10-15-2019, 06:58 PM
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I relied entirely on nitrates to do what I needed in the stuff I mixed for SP. It's what I use today. My pots seem brand new.
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  #69  
Old 10-15-2019, 09:42 PM
Shawn Everette Shawn Everette is offline
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They made 4 clears, 5 if you count the cut off scraps. And I thought the two "studio" versions were compatible, one ate the hell out of your furnace, the other just had it for lunch.

96 is still coming out in some of the publication material, or is at least still on some of their distributor sites. I'm more concerned about their lack of transparency and surprise supply changes for all of their glass. I think their procurement of spectrum is going to make it even harder for the blowers, the amount of money they bank on tiles would make our appetite paltry. As you've said, no money in cullet.
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  #70  
Old 10-21-2019, 09:59 PM
Jordan Kube Jordan Kube is offline
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I'm more concerned about their lack of transparency
Shawn, you say this in just about every thread about this topic. I'm curious about what you mean by it.
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  #71  
Old 10-22-2019, 07:04 AM
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That means their lack of candor to me. These guys in general are never a fountain of information about their products and that matters.
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Old 10-22-2019, 12:35 PM
Shawn Everette Shawn Everette is offline
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There is virtually no tech information out there from them, especially compared to someone like bullseye. That, and they have a tendency to have fairly dramatic changes or holdups that leave people hanging.

System started the trend with all of their cullet/coe drama. I was hopeful there would be a change with Oceanside, but since discontinuing the non fusible, release of the questionable flake, and major late arrival of cullet; a positive trend is not showing. I've also noticed quality changes on the new fusible, and not for the better.

I know companies have their growing pains, but what was billed as kind of a turn key operation, I was forced to make a decision to wait them out, with nothing in terms of regular updates, or go with an available alternative. I chose the latter out of necessity. That meant significant wasted material, and a brief period of grumpy renters; but smooth sailing otherwise. Either all other glass would need to cease to exist, or their product price would need to nosedive, in order to win me back as a customer.
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Old 10-22-2019, 12:51 PM
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Moving formulas and processes from one site to another take me back to the old German Adage " A good formula can't cross the Street". And, that's true. As Croucher cracked; " Or across the studio." And that's true too.

The routine everyone is experiencing now is sort of "It doesn't matter if you're good if you're first."

I agree with you about the woeful lack of information. They aren't witholding it. They don't really know how to generate it. Instead I see them frequently choose to dis sites like this one for negativity. Don't give these guys credit for witholding when they don't really know what they're doing. I've seen my share of 30,000 lb mistakes.
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Old 10-22-2019, 01:13 PM
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I've always been fond of bullseye's scientific approach and continued efforts, and that's a fairly high bar to set. Say what you will about the specifics of the situation, but the smartest thing they did was try to keep the customer informed when dealing with Portland and the production loss.

Oceanside's mentality seems to be, "You'll hear about it when it hits the shelves" or "we're out and have decided to discontinue". That's not something I can plan around, so I'll avoid it. I really don't care about 20 new colors when I can't get the standard I need for a commission. Spectum really only had two things going for it, price and sheet surface; both are now a wash at best. There was nearly a two year hiatus on their cullet, and for a small studio with little storage, that's a lifetime. An exodus was inevitable.
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Old 10-22-2019, 03:54 PM
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I could make quite the list of cullets that have entered and exited the market over the years.
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