CraftWEB Hot Glass Talk  

Go Back   CraftWEB Hot Glass Talk > Hot Glass > General Hot Glass Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 07-10-2018, 09:59 PM
Pete VanderLaan's Avatar
Pete VanderLaan Pete VanderLaan is offline
The Old Gaffer
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Chocorua New Hampshire
Posts: 20,497
Pete VanderLaan is on a distinguished road
that pesky shortage

So, I received information yesterday that OCR is out of Cristallica? I would like to have that confirmed by anyone. I also understand that SP is out as well.
Currently, the demand in the USA is still 11 tons per day including everyone using cullet. Dobern has a current furnace designed to produce 5 tons per day but will get pushed to make more (7?) which in my experience will mean it makes less high quality glass. Field reports will verify if QC will be an issue. If cullet is indeed made elsewhere, it's unlikely that a site making more than 2 tons per day will pop up and again, QC is key.This doesn't begin to consider the quantity being used in Europe on top of the American demand. How do you lower demand? Raise the Price...

It does keep the consideration of using any of the commercial batches in mind as we go into the fall when Schools throw their weight around ordering cullet. GLASMA , East Bay and SP 87 start looking not just cheap, but just available.

So the next person suggesting making your own is foolish, or melting commercial batch as kind of dumb, well learn to whistle. It likely will be a long fall.
__________________
Where are we going and why am I in this basket?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 07-11-2018, 08:54 AM
Dave Bross Dave Bross is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Archer FL(near Gainesville)
Posts: 2,948
Dave Bross is on a distinguished road
Yup, and we'll be here to pull you out before you hit the asphalt if you're smart enough to ask...and actually try it.

Those new EU rules on chemicals that make color should get interesting soon too.
__________________
Art is not a thing...it's a way.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 07-11-2018, 12:28 PM
David Blankenstyn David Blankenstyn is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Calgary, Canada
Posts: 10
David Blankenstyn is on a distinguished road
This is getting ridiculous
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 07-11-2018, 12:55 PM
Tom Fuhrman Tom Fuhrman is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: hills of Tennessee
Posts: 1,363
Tom Fuhrman is on a distinguished road
It will be interesting to see the response of educational institutions if it requires that they start melting their own batch and cullet is no longer an option. I fore see that there may be some changes in store for some of these places.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 07-11-2018, 01:57 PM
Pete VanderLaan's Avatar
Pete VanderLaan Pete VanderLaan is offline
The Old Gaffer
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Chocorua New Hampshire
Posts: 20,497
Pete VanderLaan is on a distinguished road
I don't see the REACH terms stopping the making of clear at all and currently the EU decision really is inclusive of just Arsenic, but the camel's nose is clearly under the tent on chromophores in general.

The problem with boutique cullet is different and it is that there isn't actually any money in doing it currently. If there was you would see upstarts all over setting up one ton melters to make and sell cullet and that is not happening. Oceanside could be making cullet in Tijuana. They aren't. Every one in this country that has tried to make and sell the stuff at a profit has hit trouble. It's not just making it, it's distributing it as well and keeping the engineering specs tight enough. When Cristalica goes from a monitored 5 ton melt per day to a 7 ton melt per 24 hours, I'm fairly sure there are going to be QC issues that glassblowers are going to notice right away. That was clear to me six months back when the demand was going to be unable to be met by supply. Farming out manufacturing is going to be a QC loss of control as well, that I'm also sure of. Making glass right requires care and patience.

Will this lead back to using batch from one of the Stateside or European mixing groups? For some, yes but for schools it will become a school policy issue I'm betting. They like cullet because it's simple and makes the lives of their shop techs easier. It has been a long time since they wanted to make glass from raw materials to make doing it a teachable experience. Karl Platt said it best. "The schools want glass from a toothpaste tube". I think the studios do too actually. If that is to really be supplied, it will be expensive, as in $1.55 to 1.75 lb. I think the calcedonia I make runs $55.00 kg. I would not make and sell it for less. When I make black at $63KG it sells out as fast as I announce the run. I wouldn't make it for less. The irritating reality is that glass is far better worked from pots than from rods.

But if the schools were forced to go back to batch, I'm not sure how the administrations will react to all that dust and stuff. Not sure at all.

but, right now, I understand that the shortage is on, just a bit later than I thought. I imagine there has been some hoarding so it still has to develop into a major issue. I can still buy all the chemicals to make clear at quite the tolerable price. Some of the colorants are becoming expensive though but that will all get passed on to users I imagine.
__________________
Where are we going and why am I in this basket?
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 07-11-2018, 01:59 PM
Eben Horton Eben Horton is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Wakefield, RI
Posts: 4,374
Eben Horton is on a distinguished road
There is a 1 and a half week backorder on Spruce pine batch. I just ordered a ton.

I don’t call that a shortage.

Yawn........
__________________
<eben epoiese>
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 07-11-2018, 02:03 PM
Pete VanderLaan's Avatar
Pete VanderLaan Pete VanderLaan is offline
The Old Gaffer
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Chocorua New Hampshire
Posts: 20,497
Pete VanderLaan is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eben Horton View Post
There is a 1 and a half week backorder on Spruce pine batch. I just ordered a ton.

I don’t call that a shortage.

Yawn........
Eben, this is about cullet being backordered, not batch.
__________________
Where are we going and why am I in this basket?
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 07-11-2018, 02:04 PM
Greg Vriethoff's Avatar
Greg Vriethoff Greg Vriethoff is online now
PotatoFish
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 2,001
Greg Vriethoff is on a distinguished road
I guess it's a good thing I won't be up and running until late next year at the earliest. Of course I could also be hit by a bus before then. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
__________________
"It's such a fine line between stupid and clever." - David St. Hubbins
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 07-11-2018, 02:17 PM
Eben Horton Eben Horton is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Wakefield, RI
Posts: 4,374
Eben Horton is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete VanderLaan View Post
Eben, this is about cullet being backordered, not batch.
Ah. Ok. I thought you were suggesting that there was a SP shortage because you said they were “out”. It did raise my eyebrows and gave me a nudge to make a call before I got too low.

I thought crystallica added a second furnace ?
__________________
<eben epoiese>
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 07-11-2018, 06:46 PM
Pete VanderLaan's Avatar
Pete VanderLaan Pete VanderLaan is offline
The Old Gaffer
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Chocorua New Hampshire
Posts: 20,497
Pete VanderLaan is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eben Horton View Post
Ah. Ok. I thought you were suggesting that there was a SP shortage because you said they were “out”. It did raise my eyebrows and gave me a nudge to make a call before I got too low.

I thought crystallica added a second furnace ?
***********
You might consider going back and reading the threads on the issue and you will find the answer to your question. Spelling Cristalica right would be good too.
__________________
Where are we going and why am I in this basket?
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 07-12-2018, 08:41 AM
Andreea Virag Andreea Virag is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Germany
Posts: 6
Andreea Virag is on a distinguished road
Cristalica production info from Cristalica :)

Dear Pete,
Dear Craftweb members,

As some of you might now, I work at Cristalica, so I can tell you first hand that there is no shortage in sight. Quite the contrary, we are indeed ramping up to meet each and everyone’s demands. 😊
Quality control is of course not neglected and very important to us – we are taking our time to ensure that the glass is as brilliant as ever.
In order to not get caught up in rumours or suppositions, we invite anyone interested in the glass we produce to please kindly contact our exclusive distributors, i.e. Olympic Color Rods and Spruce Pine Batch for the US and Kuta Glassworks for Canada.
They have the best overview on prices locally, lead times and experiences so far of other customers and are always happy to answer your questions. Also, Olympic and our colleagues from Reichenbach have visited the factory quite recently, so can give a realtime assessment on how we are meeting demand and not pushing aside quality. We like to work transparently with the glass scene, for the glass scene, so questions are welcome.
Moreover, we are also planning for the future, i.e, planning for a new furnace as replacement for when the current one will have lived out its production cycle. More on that always from our partners – which are the best information source - as we move forward, excited for the future. 😉

Hope this provides a bit of clarity.
Thank you and happy melting!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete VanderLaan View Post
So, I received information yesterday that OCR is out of Cristallica? I would like to have that confirmed by anyone. I also understand that SP is out as well.
Currently, the demand in the USA is still 11 tons per day including everyone using cullet. Dobern has a current furnace designed to produce 5 tons per day but will get pushed to make more (7?) which in my experience will mean it makes less high quality glass. Field reports will verify if QC will be an issue. If cullet is indeed made elsewhere, it's unlikely that a site making more than 2 tons per day will pop up and again, QC is key.This doesn't begin to consider the quantity being used in Europe on top of the American demand. How do you lower demand? Raise the Price...

It does keep the consideration of using any of the commercial batches in mind as we go into the fall when Schools throw their weight around ordering cullet. GLASMA , East Bay and SP 87 start looking not just cheap, but just available.

So the next person suggesting making your own is foolish, or melting commercial batch as kind of dumb, well learn to whistle. It likely will be a long fall.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 07-12-2018, 01:58 PM
Pete VanderLaan's Avatar
Pete VanderLaan Pete VanderLaan is offline
The Old Gaffer
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Chocorua New Hampshire
Posts: 20,497
Pete VanderLaan is on a distinguished road
and we will see what we will see.
__________________
Where are we going and why am I in this basket?
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 07-13-2018, 12:38 PM
Robert Gary Parkes's Avatar
Robert Gary Parkes Robert Gary Parkes is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Port Kells BC Canada
Posts: 169
Robert Gary Parkes is on a distinguished road
Thank you Andrea for your encouraging reply.
With all the doom and gloom postings on this thread, it is nice to hear some thing positive from the source.
Here, up in Canada, we tend to be a bit more positive than it seems our neighbours south of the border are...so again we thank you for at least a small reprieve from "the end of glassblowing as we know it" scenario ..

This will all, most likely, eventually, be blamed on President Trump, and Russsian collusion, meddling in the supply of world wide clear cullet manufacturing, which can only be saved by massive influxes of laundered money from the Clinton foundation, and the supreme intervention of the saviour of the people...Hilory

Happy Friday the 13th folks, keep yer heads down and yer powder dry...
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 07-13-2018, 01:48 PM
Steve Stadelman Steve Stadelman is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Portland oregon area
Posts: 3,738
Steve Stadelman is on a distinguished road
hmmmmmmm.........I am moving to a part of Oregon where electricity is a mere nickel per KWH........train tracks too.....
__________________
If all you wanted to do was express yourself artistically, you should have obtained a field watercolor set and a pad of acid-free paper. You chose a media with INFRASTRUCTURE baby!
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 07-21-2018, 01:02 PM
Pete VanderLaan's Avatar
Pete VanderLaan Pete VanderLaan is offline
The Old Gaffer
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Chocorua New Hampshire
Posts: 20,497
Pete VanderLaan is on a distinguished road
Currently Spruce Pine is four weeks behind on batch. I just ordered one ton of my mix with Sept delivery.
Currently Spruce Pine is out of Cristalica and the next container is sold. Phil can't keep up with demand and the reaction to it has not been good. The pacific NW hates it. This isn't me speculating.
Demand is exceeding supply at 11 tons per day but there aren't people in love with the goop. There are moves all over the globe to replace it with a better product. That is way harder than it might appear but it will happen. Cristalica could change the formula, but it won't do it. Crisis is coming unless you have some brains.
__________________
Where are we going and why am I in this basket?
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 07-25-2018, 09:17 AM
Andreea Virag Andreea Virag is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Germany
Posts: 6
Andreea Virag is on a distinguished road
Hi Pete,
Hi everyone,

As mentioned before, we encourage everyone to please get in touch with our direct suppliers, Olympic Color Rods, Spruce Pine Batch and Kuta Glassworks for realistic updates.
Regarding quantity, we have now upped production to meet demands, but containers do take the sea route, so it will take a bit for stocks to stabilize. Our partners are now handling back-orders in a manner so as to ensure that everybody gets good glass and as fast as possible, but we should be out of this phase of order delays soon, as we have several containers under way. Our partners have the details.

Regarding quality: statements like “the Pacific NW hates it” still baffle us. We get feedback from you guys via Olympic and Spruce (and Kuta for Canada) and welcome any criticism along with the good. Moreover, our representative Martin Gründer, which some of you might already know from Phil, has been over several times since last April, visiting and seeing for his own how you guys work the glass (in Seattle, in North Carolina and Toronto) and transform it into beautiful stuff. We like to know first-hand what we still need to work on to adapt glass to the demands of the market, but in no way do we think that 1 person (or suggestions like “most artists”) equals to specific details/feedback from specific glass artists.
That being said, the feedback is essentially good. Whatever problems arise in individual scenarios, we want to advise, support, clarify and solve them. Knowing OCR, SP and Kuta as the loyal and professional glass suppliers that they are, we know that they always do their very best to handle any questions they may get. We like to think we do the same, as we value the same things in a supplier-customer relationship. Therefore, Pete, please name the specific customers (that make up all of NW) who hate the product, so we can approach them and see what the problem with the “goop” is. In that regard, we would appreciate if what is written here is based on facts, not fear or rumours.

And before you mention borax, please kindly know that we are luckily not blind to the needs and preferences of the glass artist community and as promised we are working down the borax in the recipe, one step at a time.
We started with 1,75% borax, in May we reduced to 1,50%, this week we are lowering to 1,25% and we will go on with this but only step by step to ensure product quality. We are sure this is understandable.

We want to be open to everybody and are working hard with our partners to give you the best glass there is. We understand that the process can be sometimes frustrating and want to thank everybody for their feedback, patience and openness!

Best regards from Martin, Andreea, and the entire Cristalica team over there and over seas 😊
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 07-25-2018, 09:21 AM
Andreea Virag Andreea Virag is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Germany
Posts: 6
Andreea Virag is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Gary Parkes View Post
Thank you Andrea for your encouraging reply.
With all the doom and gloom postings on this thread, it is nice to hear some thing positive from the source.
Here, up in Canada, we tend to be a bit more positive than it seems our neighbours south of the border are...so again we thank you for at least a small reprieve from "the end of glassblowing as we know it" scenario ..

This will all, most likely, eventually, be blamed on President Trump, and Russsian collusion, meddling in the supply of world wide clear cullet manufacturing, which can only be saved by massive influxes of laundered money from the Clinton foundation, and the supreme intervention of the saviour of the people...Hilory

Happy Friday the 13th folks, keep yer heads down and yer powder dry...
Hiya Robert,

Thank you for the nice message. We know things are a bit tense now with delays, but we are sure we'll get through this together. Thanks for your positive outlook and hope you like your glass!

Oh, and I think it's safe to say that "the end of glassblowing as we know it" has been cancelled.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 07-25-2018, 10:04 AM
Pete VanderLaan's Avatar
Pete VanderLaan Pete VanderLaan is offline
The Old Gaffer
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Chocorua New Hampshire
Posts: 20,497
Pete VanderLaan is on a distinguished road
I sent you a PM.
Pete V
********


Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreea Virag View Post
Hi Pete,
Hi everyone,

As mentioned before, we encourage everyone to please get in touch with our direct suppliers, Olympic Color Rods, Spruce Pine Batch and Kuta Glassworks for realistic updates.
Regarding quantity, we have now upped production to meet demands, but containers do take the sea route, so it will take a bit for stocks to stabilize. Our partners are now handling back-orders in a manner so as to ensure that everybody gets good glass and as fast as possible, but we should be out of this phase of order delays soon, as we have several containers under way. Our partners have the details.

Regarding quality: statements like “the Pacific NW hates it” still baffle us. We get feedback from you guys via Olympic and Spruce (and Kuta for Canada) and welcome any criticism along with the good. Moreover, our representative Martin Gründer, which some of you might already know from Phil, has been over several times since last April, visiting and seeing for his own how you guys work the glass (in Seattle, in North Carolina and Toronto) and transform it into beautiful stuff. We like to know first-hand what we still need to work on to adapt glass to the demands of the market, but in no way do we think that 1 person (or suggestions like “most artists”) equals to specific details/feedback from specific glass artists.
That being said, the feedback is essentially good. Whatever problems arise in individual scenarios, we want to advise, support, clarify and solve them. Knowing OCR, SP and Kuta as the loyal and professional glass suppliers that they are, we know that they always do their very best to handle any questions they may get. We like to think we do the same, as we value the same things in a supplier-customer relationship. Therefore, Pete, please name the specific customers (that make up all of NW) who hate the product, so we can approach them and see what the problem with the “goop” is. In that regard, we would appreciate if what is written here is based on facts, not fear or rumours.

And before you mention borax, please kindly know that we are luckily not blind to the needs and preferences of the glass artist community and as promised we are working down the borax in the recipe, one step at a time.
We started with 1,75% borax, in May we reduced to 1,50%, this week we are lowering to 1,25% and we will go on with this but only step by step to ensure product quality. We are sure this is understandable.

We want to be open to everybody and are working hard with our partners to give you the best glass there is. We understand that the process can be sometimes frustrating and want to thank everybody for their feedback, patience and openness!

Best regards from Martin, Andreea, and the entire Cristalica team over there and over seas 😊
__________________
Where are we going and why am I in this basket?
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 07-25-2018, 03:53 PM
Pete VanderLaan's Avatar
Pete VanderLaan Pete VanderLaan is offline
The Old Gaffer
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Chocorua New Hampshire
Posts: 20,497
Pete VanderLaan is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete VanderLaan View Post
I sent you a PM.
Pete V
********
But on consideration having not heard from you all day, , I'll expand from that. For most studios, adequate supply means they can call the distributor for shipping. It certainly works that way in the crucible biz. Currently? OCR is out, Spruce Pine is out and High Temp in Portland had some this morning. So, that to me is not meeting demand. I already know Spruce Pine has a container on the water and it's already sold. OCR has a big supply of SP 87 batch in the warehouse.

Actually I know way more than that.

If it's the case that two years ago I advised you to gt the borax out of this glass, and you demurred at the time ( which I expected), you are now saying you've reduced the content twice yet somehow there's no problem as I predicted two years back with the Borax. Now doing that would change the expansion slightly, is that accounted for somehow that you would like to share? Do you want to share the decision making about reducing Borax?

I hear from lots of people , being in the crucible biz on a daily basis and they are most unhappy about the dissolution occurring in their products. While I haven't hit a lot of it yet in our business, I would imagine that would be occurring in crucibles as well. Spectrum used to dismiss dissolution problems as "bad Pots" before they discontinued Sys 96 and went to the ill fated "Spectrum Premier" which was also abandoned in favor of "Spectrum 2.0" which was the last product the company produced before throwing in the towel. I take fascinating note that Oceanside, which bought the Spectrum line is now going all in on Sys96- just remarkable

So I can only urge you to dump the borax entirely, declare victory as a keen observer of the clients needs before you get swamped by history. Then and only then can you survive the current sea change I've suggested to you privately.
__________________
Where are we going and why am I in this basket?
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 07-25-2018, 04:45 PM
Art Freas Art Freas is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Washington
Posts: 501
Art Freas is on a distinguished road
Just a note on the spectrum history

Spectrum System 96 Studio Nuggets was discontinued in favor of System 96 Studio Nuggets New Formula (the new formula did not have the Borax).
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 07-25-2018, 05:36 PM
Pete VanderLaan's Avatar
Pete VanderLaan Pete VanderLaan is offline
The Old Gaffer
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Chocorua New Hampshire
Posts: 20,497
Pete VanderLaan is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Freas View Post
Just a note on the spectrum history

Spectrum System 96 Studio Nuggets was discontinued in favor of System 96 Studio Nuggets New Formula (the new formula did not have the Borax).
********
Actually , no, it became Spectrum Premium, a 97.5 body that was actually in fact incompatible with Sys96 which had an expansion of 94.1. It was discontinued to make Spectrum 2.0.
__________________
Where are we going and why am I in this basket?
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 07-25-2018, 06:06 PM
Art Freas Art Freas is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Washington
Posts: 501
Art Freas is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete VanderLaan View Post
********
Actually , no, it became Spectrum Premium, a 97.5 body that was actually in fact incompatible with Sys96 which had an expansion of 94.1. It was discontinued to make Spectrum 2.0.
Spectrum Premium was discontinued in favor of Premium 2.0, this happened way before System 96 Studio Nuggets were discontinued about 1.5 years ago in favor of Spectrum System 96 Studio Nuggets New Formula.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 07-25-2018, 06:30 PM
Pete VanderLaan's Avatar
Pete VanderLaan Pete VanderLaan is offline
The Old Gaffer
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Chocorua New Hampshire
Posts: 20,497
Pete VanderLaan is on a distinguished road
check back in with your people at either OCR or Spectrum. I think you'll find out that both sys96 and premium were in production at the same time. Two clear glasses actually incompatible with each other. One a 94.1 and the other a 97.5. It was remarkable at the time for a company that claimed to be servicing the glass community.

Servicing indeed. Got livestock?
__________________
Where are we going and why am I in this basket?
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 07-26-2018, 03:52 PM
Art Freas Art Freas is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Washington
Posts: 501
Art Freas is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete VanderLaan View Post
check back in with your people at either OCR or Spectrum. I think you'll find out that both sys96 and premium were in production at the same time. Two clear glasses actually incompatible with each other. One a 94.1 and the other a 97.5. It was remarkable at the time for a company that claimed to be servicing the glass community.

Servicing indeed. Got livestock?
Reread my last post, your last post and that post agree.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 07-26-2018, 04:12 PM
Pete VanderLaan's Avatar
Pete VanderLaan Pete VanderLaan is offline
The Old Gaffer
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Chocorua New Hampshire
Posts: 20,497
Pete VanderLaan is on a distinguished road
Spectrum is not worth it to me to fight about. They claimed they wanted to service the glass community. That they did offering up products that did not even fit each other and frequently failed to fit substantial volumes of commercial color. Only after making Spectrum 2.0, a Spruce Pine clone short a bit of lithium and obtained under questionable circumstances did they make anything really workable. That was followed by inevitable furnace failures in which many many stones showed up in the bags and the company tried to dismiss that problem.

Not a group that I will miss.
__________________
Where are we going and why am I in this basket?
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:20 PM.


All published comments within these message boards are the opinions of its contributor and does not represent
the opinion(s) of the owner(s) of this website. Please see the Terms of Use file for more details.

Books to Help Artists Avoid Online Scams: Top 10 Email Scams | Social Media Scams

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© CraftWEB.com. Opportunity Network. 2008. All Rights Reserved.