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Old 12-06-2018, 11:09 PM
Andrew Horch Andrew Horch is offline
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What makes Gaffer G-66 Red Lustre red?

Does anyone know what makes Gaffer G-66 Red Lustre red? I was curius so I had it analyzed. Silver=0.05%; Arsenic=0.3%; Lead=27%; the following are below the detection limit: Iron, Tin, Copper, Cadmium, Selenium. It is the same price as gold ruby but it is darker, so I doubt it is gold. What else makes glass ruby?

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Old 12-07-2018, 02:54 PM
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Uh, not sure what to do with this.

Cadmium and selenium are used in lead free formulations to create reds, oranges, and yellows. They normally turn a shit brown in the presence of lead. But I'm not a chemist or color maker, so I have to defer to those that know more.

I wonder how John will feel about this?
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Old 12-07-2018, 02:59 PM
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I'm not in the habit of exposing intellectual property, particularly in a public forum.. Your point about lead and cadmium are well taken.
I think that just because you can crack a part of a formula that it somehow will lead you to making that glass, which is what this sounds like, hasn't done much melting of colored glasses. Life is chock full of disappointments.
Beyond that, the archives are chock full of discussions about ruby glasses.
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Old 12-07-2018, 03:00 PM
Eric Trulson Eric Trulson is offline
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Yeah, I am in a similar boat as Greg and Pete. I'm interested in this question technically, but am a bit squirrely on the ethics of picking apart a commercial color maker's formula on a public forum.

I'd recommend maybe asking this question in a more general sense (i.e. what makes a ruby lustre glass?), or doing some test melts on your own and sharing the formulas & results, then asking for feedback on that.

Last edited by Eric Trulson; 12-07-2018 at 03:01 PM. Reason: Pete was quicker on the keyboard than me
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Old 12-07-2018, 03:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eben Horton View Post
About 6 years ago, it wasn’t red at all. Lol.
Perhaps what is sometimes referred to as "Oxblood?"
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Old 12-07-2018, 03:22 PM
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[quote=Eric Trulson;142212]Yeah, I am in a similar boat as Greg and Pete. I'm interested in this question technically, but am a bit squirrely on the ethics of picking apart a commercial color maker's formula on a public forum.

/QUOTE]
******
I know I have that reaction when I see this thread on my calcedonia formulation. With great confidence, people seem to take apart the glass as it was once published and then substantially mess with it and then want to know what's wrong with it at this point. The last time it happened, someone had my internal shop run card as a xerox. That sort of disturbed me and of course the individual didn't want to say where he got that card.

I think it has always been the case that people search long and hard for the better deal. People get so pissed off when they try to buy the round bottom pots direct from High Temp and get sent to me instead. I did do the design and test and market stuff when High Temp could not sell pots. Les Grupp and I did a lot of testing to get to the product as it is. They really like the deal as it stands. They have one bill every month to one person. They rely on me for the tech issues. Mary Beth gives incredible customer service. We earn our milk and cookies.
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Old 12-07-2018, 03:44 PM
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In the book "Big Secrets" by William Poundstone, the author reveals what makes Kentucky Fried Chicken so tasty.

After having some sent to a lab for analysis the results showed the Colonel's "11 secret herbs and spices" are salt, pepper, and MSG.
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Old 12-07-2018, 04:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete VanderLaan View Post
******
Tell me more
I’ll send you an email tonight....
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Old 12-07-2018, 05:04 PM
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In all this stuff, there is always a move by sprats to get it all right away. I used to be more responsive to that and rejected Frederick Carder's response about process by saying "Why should I tell you what it took me years to find?"

That bugged me at the time but these days it makes way more sense. Anytime in my experience now, I find that what is given freely is never valued. Actually, what I want to see is a young group working really hard to figure out NEW things and moving that ball forward. I don't see much of that but the Boro world is actually doing that very thing. Soft Glass? Not really.

So when I see all these efforts to ask about valence etc, I have to sit back and say " this ain't rocket science kid". Go do some research and don't ask me to answer questions that are basic to the field. I need better questions.

Maybe I'm a bastard, I don't know. I've spent a lot of years trying to be open.
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Old 12-07-2018, 07:42 PM
Andrew Horch Andrew Horch is offline
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I guess my question is what else in addition to Copper, Gold, Tin, Cadmium & Selenium can make glass look dark ruby red? I know Sulfur can be red, but not when lead is present. What else could this be?

This is just one more thing I am clueless about. I was hoping there was a simple answer.
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Old 12-08-2018, 07:43 AM
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What else is there to be discovered with soft glass? It has all been done before? Or was it?
Franklin
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Old 12-08-2018, 07:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Horch View Post
I was hoping there was a simple answer.
**********
Well having a chemical analysis done on a rod isn't cheap or necessarily accurate either. I have formulas where a 1/2 gram difference in 20 lbs makes a substantial difference in what happens.

While sulfur is necessary in a cadmium selenium melt of a red glass, it won't make red without it. Sulfur on the other hand won't make a red by itself. Copper makes a red if the conditions are right, gold makes a wine red and having lead in it makes the best color while if you put lead in a cadmium based glass, you get an ugly brown.

So, in my mind, no, there's no simple answer. Melting color for 45 years however gives one some insight.
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Old 12-08-2018, 08:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Franklin Sankar View Post
What else is there to be discovered with soft glass? It has all been done before? Or was it?
Franklin
******
Phosphates are soft glasses and they are relatively unexplored. It's Peiser's Holy Grail. It does seem to be the case that knowledge is acquired and then lost, again and again. There are books which catch lightning in a bottle such as the Helmut Schmidt Thuringen recipes . How long was that book in print in the Lyngaard translation ( which has typos and serious ones) . If you find one, hang on to it. Joe may still have a few copies. Helmer is significant as well and you can still get it, for how long, I don't know.

But there's a caution. Those are indeed roadmaps but only by doing a lot of melts and melts require dedication to the process and money. What I had to stress to Eric in his year here was that you shouldn't expect to make good color until you could derive a good clear and that's not easy to accept. The base chemistry and physics of any glass are important which is why I sort of glaze over when people want to color cullet of an unknown origin. It's equivalent to wanting to take a road trip to Mecca and not knowing where you start from in an empty field somewhere . I'm sure I have over a quarter million dollars in melting color spent over 45 plus years. Worth every penny. There's still tons I don't know.
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Old 12-08-2018, 12:59 PM
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Very interesting analysis. Anytime someone starts a project for discovery they need a good sure footing. I believe you now have one and can achieve something all your own. Kudos.

Glass has always been a secretive endeavor. It rubs off on those in the business. The better parts of people want to share in the hopes that it will make the entire glass world stronger. The worst part gets the feeling they are being taken advantage of. I spent years in biotech watching scientists discover and then patent human genes. Trying to carve out a niche for themselves (and their friends) rather than sharing information so we could get better answers sooner. History smiles fondly on those of us who share freely and completely. When you're truly great, no one can steal your fire.

I posted about the chalcedony formula because I saw a student having the same problem with it that I was having. No one else is going to suggest simply reducing the tin by a lot. Why not just let him try that, see if it works and then admit that a range of black tin should be tried to achieve the best result for your furnace conditions?

I am currently undertaking a project to make my own clear. I was fascinated with the Vanderlaan formula for some time but realized in the end I would be working with an unknown with questionable future availability. I'd rather know everything that goes into the glass just as Dave Bross and Pete have been advocating. I have a good footing from formulas posted on this forum and elsewhere.
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Old 12-08-2018, 03:47 PM
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Seems with color formulation, a recipe is just a starting point. Like Pete said, you have to have a pretty wide base of knowledge to get very far with it. Like really understanding your clear formula and how it affects the colors. For that matter, the melting conditions seem to make as much difference as the formula itself.

I really appreciated watching Mark Peiser's Corning talk and hearing how the work he's put into glass formulation affected his final work. Nobody could take the formulas he's developed and turn them into anything near as valuable as what he's gotten without putting in an equivalent amount of work.

Makes me think of glass studios -factories really- that try and copy other people's designs. They can make something similar, but without the inner knowledge and motivation that informs the work, they're just pale imitations, at best, and more often just ugly cartoons of the original.
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Old 12-08-2018, 06:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Vanantwerp View Post
History smiles fondly on those of us who share freely and completely. When you're truly great, no one can steal your fire.
*************
Ah, well perhaps you haven't had anyone take your formulations from a class and to simply go home to make color rods from the formulas and then massively undercut your price for the color. It gives one a different perspective on greatness.
************

I posted about the chalcedony formula because I saw a student having the same problem with it that I was having. No one else is going to suggest simply reducing the tin by a lot.
********
Well, when you began asking me about that, you had a copy of my own internal house run sheets for the formula as your reference and would not tell me where you got it.
*************

I am currently undertaking a project to make my own clear. I was fascinated with the Vanderlaan formula for some time but realized in the end I would be working with an unknown with questionable future availability.
***********
It's not the formula for Christ's sakes. It's what is in the formula as well as it's proportions. . Different minerals yield radically different results presented as a glassy substance with durability, workability and luster.. Begin to understand why Strontium is different than Magnesium in a matrix. It's way more important than thinking you should settle on a formula you found somewhere that will be mixable by a business. I abandoned the formula of mine you had on the card for a better glass which I derived. That was three years ago.

******
As to Chalcedonia. I would not change the tin at all. What the two of you have at this point is a distant cousin of my original work. Too many changes too much of the time. The sugar was the real trip over the edge but it had cheerleaders.

The German adage is "A good recipe can't cross the Street. Or, as Lino suggested, "Melt glass where it wants to be melted", or better, as Croucher cracked ,"A good recipe can't cross the studio."
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Old 12-08-2018, 10:13 PM
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I am not looking for a recipe. As everyone has said, just knowing the elements in something does not tell you how to make it. I was hoping to discover another way of doing things. I do not see the point of making something I can easily buy. If you include development costs, anything I make will be vastly more expensive than what the big boys sell. I was looking for some insight that I might be able to combine with something else and use someplace else. This appears to be just another mystery of glass. The answer to my question appears to be, “I don’t know”. That is an honest answer. I think this topic is done.

And, the cost of analyzing things has dropped a lot in resent years.
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Old 12-09-2018, 07:45 AM
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I didn't say I don't know. I said I would not share intellectual property of Gaffer Inc. What i did say was this and it answers your question:

"While sulfur is necessary in a cadmium selenium melt of a red glass, it won't make red without it. Sulfur on the other hand won't make a red by itself. Copper makes a red if the conditions are right, gold makes a wine red and having lead in it makes the best color while if you put lead in a cadmium based glass, you get an ugly brown. "

But it's not "I don't know". Your analysis may indeed be cheap but It's not particularly accurate either.
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Old 12-09-2018, 06:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete VanderLaan View Post
***********

or better, as Croucher cracked ,"A good recipe can't cross the studio."
I'm hoping he's going to prove himself very wrong on this one
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Old 12-10-2018, 07:36 AM
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Thanks Pete. I always wondered wher soft glass is going next.
purity of the chemicals in your formula is not easy to find sometimes.
Franklin
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Old 12-10-2018, 08:26 AM
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It's not purity as much as subtlety of amounts. In my cad/sel red, moving the selenium by a single gram really changes the color. It's totally noticeable . That's in 20 lbs of the base glass.

Given that, if an analysis says that the amounts of Iron, Tin, Copper, Cadmium, Selenium are below detection level, you should be reasonably able to assume that the analysis is fairly worthless.

Much color is understood in soft glasses but not by very many people. It is dependent on a real mixed bag of conditions. Making melts initially may cost time and money but the ones who have done it commercially have done well by their efforts. They don't tend to give that away. The ones who do it in their own shops enjoy a very distinctive look in their work.

Recent years have helped me be more and more in touch with what I can and can't share. On the bulk of these questions, the archives yield a ton of material. One has to simply be willing to look.
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Old 12-10-2018, 12:01 PM
Tom Fuhrman Tom Fuhrman is offline
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It's an art. I've seen batchmakers go from one factory to another and not be able to duplicate their final glass outcome. Even different batch men at the same factory using the same formula and ingredients would produce different outcomes.
i.e. grandma's cookies made at her house were always better than those she made at my parents house. they all were good but some better than others.
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Old 12-10-2018, 12:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Bowles View Post
I'm hoping he's going to prove himself very wrong on this one
*****
Sadly, he's right. Look at how colors from Gaffer have changed over the years. I went through a double whammy when I moved east. I went from Gas to electric and dropped in altitude by 5500 feet. While I once made the best copper ruby out there, I stopped even trying here.

Now, with the gas furnace back in service, It's good again. The base formula was critical. Tom is on the money though. "It's an art". I still love trying after all these years.
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Old 12-10-2018, 03:58 PM
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"It's not purity as much as subtlety of amounts." This really is the heart of the matter. analyzing a rod you are looking at the end chemistry, not the starting chemistry. While there are many theoretical paths to an end they are affected by minute differences in the start. When I took inorganic 2 in college our final was on the coloration of gemstones. It was truly amazing how little difference there was between the chemistry of gems that had vastly different colors. In my lottery winner life I really would love to get in to making color, alas that life has eluded me thus far.
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Old 12-10-2018, 08:34 PM
Andrew Horch Andrew Horch is offline
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Any small shops selling color these days? I know of the big 3 Anyone else?
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