Evaluating cullets and such

[Pete VanderLaan]

So, what cullets are out there in use at this point. I'm getting interested in using a poll, which we almost never do here to find out what is used/ how much/ and where.

I'm also quite interested in durability of these cullets at this point.

I can think of
Bomma
Oceanside
Kugler
Cristalica
Spruce Pine once it's glass , not batch.
VDL Clear, once it's glass, not batch. There's not a lot of this in circulation
Gaffer batch once it's a cullet
East Bay once it's a cullet

Are there others?

[Pete VanderLaan]

What? No one will touch this?

[Eric Trulson]

Originally Posted by Pete VanderLaan

So, what cullets are out there in use at this point...I can think of
Bomma
Oceanside
Kugler
Cristalica
Spruce Pine once it's glass , not batch.
VDL Clear, once it's glass, not batch. There's not a lot of this in circulation
Gaffer batch once it's a cullet
East Bay once it's a cullet

Are there others?

That about covers the options available in the US as far as I know. Glasma, but that's more of an EU thing. Maybe Gabbert cullet too, but I don't know anyone who uses them personally.

For the bottom four, you just mean people recycling their own shop scrap and pot heels as cullet for remelt? As far as I know you can't buy any of them in cullet form directly

[Eben Horton]

I use Bomma.
Its expensive but I really like it’s working properties

[Pete VanderLaan]

Originally Posted by Eric Trulson

That about covers the options available in the US as far as I know. Glasma, but that's more of an EU thing. Maybe Gabbert cullet too, but I don't know anyone who uses them personally.

For the bottom four, you just mean people recycling their own shop scrap and pot heels as cullet for remelt? As far as I know you can't buy any of them in cullet form directly

****
Does Gabbert still have cullets at all? You are correct in your thinking about the batch glasses. I do not think a GLASMA cullet is still being made.
Eben, I thought you were melting SP87?

[Pete VanderLaan]

Originally Posted by Eben Horton

I use Bomma.
Its expensive but I really like its working properties

****
How expensive?

[David Patchen]

It's rough out there:

Bomma - nice to work with, great clarity but quality issues (cord, snots, metal) but perhaps sorted out by now?

Oceanside - nice looking glass but it's the Spectrum 1.0 formula and all it's problems are back, fit issues abound with G&R in cane and murrine color applications, particularly shocky. The most problematic glass I've ever used.

Kugler - I've not blown it, but it's known to come in large chunks which required pre-heating to avoid explosions (that could take out elements) but perhaps they've addressed this. Expensive.

Cristalica - it eats your furnace; that's all I needed to know to stay away.

If Spruce Pine offered cullet again they'd probably take 50% of the market within a year, but apparently they have no plans to offer it again.

I'm pushing Public Glass to try Glasma since it's supposed to melt at a lower temp than most batch and fine out quickly. Everyone I've talked to who uses it are a fan. There are a couple dozen US glassblowers using it.

[Pete VanderLaan]

Danielle Blade tells me the Kugler clear is very short and brutish.

In my opinion, Spruce pine had it in their hands to dominate this but a botched furnace design completely killed it. The place has everything it needs to do it. There is railhead, there is motor carrier access, they have 16lb nat gas pressure on site, they have a batch plant and excellent prices for raw materials. They have minimal regulation.

Before John died, we talked about having two Korean furnaces at one ton capacity each that cost about 50K each, turnkey ready. One could always back up the other, or better yet, have three. The mechanism for making the cullet break up still exists. John thought it would take about a 1.5-million-dollar capital investment that would be recovered entirely in about two years. That's a great opportunity.

What is missing is the will to do it. None exists at Spruce Pine. They are happy selling batch and that's it. It's really disappointing.

The last time I talked to Greg he was unwilling to even consider making cullet until it hit 1.75 or more a lb. I don't see it and it's just right there.

David: I never got those cups to test. Maybe we don't need to but I love having evidence, not conjecture.

[Mark Rosenbaum]

I use Kugler and like it.
It comes in broken up bars about the thickness of color rods. I do preheat it, but have been known to throw some in cold, but I would not do that all the time.
As for expense, if it was $.10- $.20/ pound more than Bomma or Cristallica, how much money is it really adding to making a piece? If it works and you like it, the cost of cullet is not our biggest problem right now.

[Pete VanderLaan]

I see at SP that Cristalica is about $1.60 lb and that SP87 with Erbium is about $1.15 lb. So you get 81 lbs of glass for every 100 lbs of SP batch that you melt after volition. Add about $.50 lb for shipping.(maybe more?) I don't know quite how to calculate the fuel/time costs for any of them. I imagine that fuel must be somewhere around $2.00 hr considering charging and fining. That may be way off.

So, help me with my math here.
Price of Bomma 88.00 for 55lbs- $1.60 lb add .50 for shipping
Price of Oceanside 80.00 for 50lbs $1.60 lb add. 50 shipping
Price for Cristalica 88.00 for 55 lbs $1.60 lb add .50 lb for shipping
Price for Kugler 90.75 for 55 lbs 15 surcharge inc - comes to $2.00 lb add shipping.
Price for SP87 $57.50 for 50lb $1.38 lb . add . 50 shipping

It takes about 12 hours to melt and fine cullet depending on the definition of fine. Time depends on temp and how big a pot you have. You get 100 percent of the product. SP takes overnight to melt and has a 19% volition loss so you get 40.5 lbs glass per bag. It takes overnight to melt and fine. Either suggest at least $24.00 in fuel cost per melt. Is that a good assumption?

If it is, then take the base glass price and add shipping at .50lb
Bomma is $2.10 lb
Cristalica is $2.10 lb
Oceanside is $2.10 lb
Kugler is $2.50 lb
Spruce Pine $1.88 lb

Then add fuel and loss of production time but that's up to you. I see all of these glasses as over about $2.60 lb with Kugler seemingly high.

I really would appreciate someone tearing apart these figures. .

[Josh Bernbaum]

I haven't bought any SP batch since last Spring, and I paid about $500 for shipping a ton of it here. I'm not as far away from them as someone on the west coast would be, but that ended up at more like 25 cents/lb. for shipping here. I think for shits and giggles I'll try to calculate the cost per lb. of the homemade color batch I just mixed up yesterday. That also took about two hours of my time to calculate things on a spreadsheet, weigh out and sift ingredients, and cleanup after. All before it then spent another hour in the mixer.

[Pete VanderLaan]

SP wants $2.00 lb for the color base. I wrote the original material for that and find it amusing that my approach simply left out the Antimony and the nitrates. So, you get to pay for something that has a lower materials cost then the oxidized stuff.

I really only proposed it to address Copper reds and silver ambers. That was way back in the 2004 color classes which Tom attended. That was where the twelve lb bag came from as well. We put all batch in the pots using bags. I think we had about nine pots for that group of classes. The later ones had around twelve pots.

If you got the batch back in April, I do think shippers raised their rates in the interim. Olympic is selling SP again so they're not punishing SP in one of their normal ways. I think High Temp in Portland handles it as well.

I view calculating formulas as a one shot deal that will serve you forever.

Even back in Spring, if I read you right, it was .25 lb to ship.

[Pete VanderLaan]

Originally Posted by Josh Bernbaum

I haven't bought any SP batch since last Spring, and I paid about $500 for shipping a ton of it here.

That also took about two hours of my time to calculate things on a spreadsheet, weigh out and sift ingredients, and cleanup after. All before it then spent another hour in the mixer.

****
SP color base has to be mixed by you anyways. They just dump the materials in a bag, no mixing at all.
Fuel costs per lb are of real interest as to the differences between cullets and batch.

It's still worth noting that cullets are kind of like mayflys. They really come and go. At Least SP is always here.

[Brian Bradshaw]

Spruce Pine is 79.50/50lb bag here is SoCal with a price drop to $71@ 1000lb order. If I want color I mix my own. My glass wire melter is run off of my solar grid and it's cost is zero when averaged over a year. I don't blow in summer so I bank kw's. Just my 2c...

[Art Freas]

Bomma, nice to use, have had a bit of cordyness. Unless you charge shallow tough to get it to fine out.

Cristallica early (the stuff that looked like bird turds) - Very nice to use, very clear

Cristallica later (stuff that looked like cookies) - Got very nasty not clean, worked different than the early stuff.


SP- Just can't do it. With the dust issues and the storage just doesn't work for us.

[Tom Fuhrman]

Pete: your figures for SP87 are wrong. $57.50 for 50 lb. = $1.15/lb not $1.35.

I also have a friend that has had good results melting Glasma in her electric furnace for the last several years and swears by it.

In addition, the cost of melting will vary a lot from one location to another and depending upon the individual furnace. I think it is still a matter of what type of wares each studio is producing will dictate what they melt and how they accomplish it. I.E. making hundreds of frit colored pumpkins is entirely different than doing Italian style stemware.
If it was a lucrative proposition to make cullet some of the larger manufacturers would have been in the game by now and likely would have done it in Mexico where freight would not be such an issue as it is from the European suppliers. There is no doubt in my mind that Crisa or Libbey could easily do it at one of their Mexican factories if they thought there was a decent market and a financial return. They also have the in house expertise to make the necessary equipment to produce the machinery necessary for production and the energy and chemical suppliers to make it happen. The long and short of this is that it is a small niche market with small returns for the problems involved with small returns. Just my $.02 worth.

[Josh Bernbaum]

Originally Posted by Josh Bernbaum

I think for shits and giggles I'll try to calculate the cost per lb. of the homemade color batch I just mixed up yesterday.

Just did based on the most recent prices I'd paid for the ingredients I used. Approx. $1.50 per pound of this phosphate white batch (modified Brossphate) I am melting today. Doesn't include my time. Does include some now more-expensive additions like potassium, lithium, zinc, strontium and STPP.

[Pete VanderLaan]

I based the cost on how much glass you got which was about 41 lbs, not the batch prevolition amount.

[Mark Rosenbaum]

Where did you get your numbers?
Kugler is $1.45/lb. That equals $79.75 for 55pounds....

[Pete VanderLaan]

I went to hot glass color and their website. It was not clear to me if the 15% surcharge applied to the clear. It seemed really expensive to me. I assumed that if I just waited, someone would have more accurate figures. I continue to assume the shipping costs to be reasonable.
I went to the Hot Glass color website again this morning and it lists at $1.65 lb. The surcharge is still not clear.

[Mark Rosenbaum]

Originally Posted by Pete VanderLaan

I went to hot glass color and their website. It was not clear to me if the 15% surcharge applied to the clear. It seemed really expensive to me. I assumed that if I just waited, someone would have more accurate figures. I continue to assume the shipping costs to be reasonable.
I went to the Hot Glass color website again this morning and it lists at $1.65 lb. The surcharge is still not clear.

There are 2 different kinds of Kugler. The one that I use is $1.45/lb, but disappeared from the site overnight.
Your post has the remaining option at $190.75 instead of $90.75 for 55 pounds.
As for shipping, it is not reasonable for any manufacturer to ship cheaply. That would be a constant with any cullet or batch.

[Pete VanderLaan]

You are correct about my key entry error. It should read $90.75 for 55 lbs but there's more.

I went to their website just now and they say it's a 58 lb, not a 55 lb bag which changes the price. It also adds on the 15% surcharge of $14.36 bringing it to
$110.06 for 58 lbs or $ 1.90 lb but if you think it's 55 lb, not 58 lbs, it costs $2.00 lb on the nose. ( Check my math please)

I don't think there is any profit in making and selling a clear cullet for under $2.00 lb and it's going up fast. With inflation it may be above $2.25lb. It still doesn't include shipping it to the end user. All the materials, cost of shipping from Hamburg to Norfolk, then CSX, wages have shot through the roof, but Kugler isn't seeing that per lb. It's going through a pile of middlemen. The problem I have with it is a bit different. Why can't it be decent quality? It just isn't. None of them are. Studios have been conditioned to think garbage is normal.

I have no idea about the two kinds of Kugler or why it vanished from the website overnight. Are you saying you can call them and get a different price for possibly a different product?All these guys avoid craftweb like the plague. I love not accepting advertising.

As for shipping. No disagreement here but it's still part of the overall cost of the cullet. You are the cow, you will be milked.

[Mark Rosenbaum]

Originally Posted by Pete VanderLaan

I have no idea about the two kinds of Kugler or why it vanished from the website overnight. Are you saying you can call them and get a different price for possibly a different product?All these guys avoid craftweb like the plague. I love not accepting advertising.

As for shipping. No disagreement here but it's still part of the overall cost of the cullet. You are the cow, you will be milked.

There were two styles, the "hockey pucks' that remain on the site, and the long thick broken rods that are no longer there. Those were $1.45/pound when I bought them two months ago.

[Pete VanderLaan]

I had been told that the long ones had issues with explosion in the pots but that isn't gospel. What I do think is that inflation as a worldwide event is moving fast. In many ways, two months ago is seemingly ancient history. I know that Greg at SP had told me SP was going to have a price increase and I don't know if it happened recently or not. To have the original SP stay as low in price as it appears, suggests that it hasn't. Lithium has exploded in price. I sold a bag recently at market value and it was $2,000 dollars for 50 lbs. A person who would know said they had been paying $16.00 lb which is a lot less. It takes 1/2% lithium.

[Mark Rosenbaum]

Originally Posted by Pete VanderLaan

I had been told that the long ones had issues with explosion in the pots but that isn't gospel. What I do think is that inflation as a worldwide event is moving fast. In many ways, two months ago is seemingly ancient history. I know that Greg at SP had told me SP was going to have a price increase and I don't know if it happened recently or not. To have the original SP stay as low in price as it appears, suggests that it hasn't. Lithium has exploded in price. I sold a bag recently at market value and it was $2,000 dollars for 50 lbs. A person who would know said they had been paying $16.00 lb which is a lot less. It takes 1/2% lithium.

They need to be pre-heated. Any piece of glass of any size needs to be pre-heated.