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  #51  
Old 03-29-2019, 08:50 AM
Shawn Everette Shawn Everette is offline
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I'm not telling anyone where it is .
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  #52  
Old 03-29-2019, 08:57 AM
Shawn Everette Shawn Everette is offline
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I'm skiddish on being the Oceanside guinea pig, but I'm not that far from needing an order and I have a tank on the way out. I know I don't want the crys supersack, and the "flake" sounds like the old spectrum cutoff routine, which was dirty to the point it might as well have been batch.
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  #53  
Old 03-29-2019, 09:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Epstein View Post
Try this on for size.

https://m.imgur.com/bovuNW3

It looks like chips of plate glass, ".
********
Maybe like sheet glass? That sounds like the sheet glass portion of the buy . Max, does it look like sheet glass?

"Similar to 2.0" is a phrase worthy of a lawyer.

At a certain point when you are making up a glass you have some tools you can use to make some things happen. There are a few tools which will lower the viscosity of any glass and naming some would include Borax, lithium, barium, lead and fluorine. Each has it's good and bad points if you want a clear glass that melts at lower temperatures but lower melt has an extractive cost in how it works against your refractories. European refractories tend to be more corrosion resistant using Alumina Zirconium Silicate far more than Americans do. Corhart was the last American AZS shop and it moved to France over a decade ago. Slippery Rock's Minteq is another that Eddie Bernard uses and it's a good product and it too has good and bad sides to it. Resistance versus thermal shock is the starter. We don't use AZS pots in this country since no one would want to pay for them and further they would break from shock.

But back at the question of viscosity, If the glass is using no borax and no lithium, then I assume it has to be using either Fluorine or barium. Fluorine is one you're going to notice right away and if you do electric melting, it will crater your elements. Barium is very nice stuff up to around 3% and it also brightens the glass considerably.

I'd ask for a chemical analysis and samples. There's more than a few unanswered questions here.
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  #54  
Old 03-29-2019, 10:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawn Everette View Post
I'm skiddish on being the Oceanside guinea pig, but I'm not that far from needing an order and I have a tank on the way out. I know I don't want the crys supersack, and the "flake" sounds like the old spectrum cutoff routine, which was dirty to the point it might as well have been batch.
Agree 100%!
Spectrum lost a lot of trust with their switch from 96 to 2.0. That is why I would ask them who is doing the beta testing. I also agree with Pete to wait a year before all of the kinks are worked out.
I have about a month left of 2.0 right now. It looks like it is Cristalica for me until something better rolls in....
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Old 03-29-2019, 10:17 AM
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Yes, it looks like sheet glass. I'll be heading back in a couple hours and get some pics/answers.
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Old 03-29-2019, 10:56 AM
Shawn Everette Shawn Everette is offline
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Yeah, the sudden 2.0 was kinda shitty on their part, but I saw it as kind of a sky is falling moment. Nothing major happened at the old shop when that occurred other than my renters freaking the **** out. Same thing is happening at my old shop right now because they're switching to Spruce due to the Crystalica shortage, and that's a confirmed compatibility issue.

I'm more peeved at the whole System saying they're keeping cullet production stateside, then dumping it cause, reasons? That really caused a major industry disruption, but when you're at the point of selling your business, you kinda have 0 ****s to give.

On the positive side, what is coming out of Oceanside flat glass wise seems to be up to snuff. It's just as smooth as the old stuff, not much in the way of flaws, melts just fine, and they're offering frit direct. There are complaints that there's no accessory glass (noodles and rods are in high demand) and the palette is not what it used to be, yet.

I'd be on the crystalica boat, but I'm not confident on long term on supply, and I'm not buying a 2000lb sack that I have to wash.
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  #57  
Old 03-29-2019, 12:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawn Everette View Post
Y

I'm more peeved at the whole System saying they're keeping cullet production stateside, then dumping it cause, reasons? That really caused a major industry disruption,
**
On the positive side, what is coming out of Oceanside flat glass wise seems to be up to snuff. It's just as smooth as the old stuff, not much in the way of flaws, melts just fine, and they're offering frit direct. There are complaints that there's no accessory glass (noodles and rods are in high demand) and the palette is not what it used to be, yet.

I'd be on the crystalica boat, but I'm not confident on long term on supply, and I'm not buying a 2000lb sack that I have to wash.
*****
This all sounds to me like smugglers ferrying refugees from Africa to Greece in questionable boats.
I don't quite understand the comment about producing cullet stateside. I think that the long term solution is indeed in making it in a location with cheaper fuel and labor with railhead and motor carrier capacity. Spectrum bailing was not hard to anticipate. The Woodinville land had become far too valuable and the furnaces far too old. I had been under the impression that Uroboros made noodles etc for sys96 and when they went under it was over. But I might be wrong about that.

Who is selling in supersacks?
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  #58  
Old 03-29-2019, 12:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Rosenbaum View Post
Agree 100%!
Spectrum lost a lot of trust with their switch from 96 to 2.0. That is why I would ask them who is doing the beta testing. I also agree with Pete to wait a year before all of the kinks are worked out.
I have about a month left of 2.0 right now. It looks like it is Cristalica for me until something better rolls in....
****
Do you mean going from sys96 to 2.0? That wasn't even a direct route. They did premium before doing the purloined 2.0. They even made both at the same time. Two clears incompatible with each other. Now there's a loss of trust.
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  #59  
Old 03-29-2019, 03:02 PM
Shawn Everette Shawn Everette is offline
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I think that they really had little intention of keeping the cullet game going, and wanted to save some face and possible brand name value while the deal was going down. Business wise it made sense, customer wise it left more than me peeved. Not to mention the upheaval on the fusing world when both System and Bullseye were down. If I have an inclination that I might need to leave you high and dry, I'm going to give you an indication of the likelihood so we have a contingency. Otherwise I'm doing the job that I signed up for, regardless of how much work it is, that's just how I roll.

Uroboros did do all the accessory glass including the frit, but I had heard that something had gotten worked out in the deal that noodles, stringers, and rod were in the pipeline but low on the totem pole. Given how long it's taken them to get any movement on the cullet, I'd be surprised if we saw it this century.

Last quote I got for Crystallica from Olympic was for the B grade in a supersack.
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  #60  
Old 03-29-2019, 04:01 PM
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I didn't even know they had a "B" grade. That's going to hell in a handbasket really fast.

I think you may need to take a broader view of the world of cullet Shawn. It's a history of business failure starting way back with Louis cullet and the overnight disappearance of the factory right down to the parking lot. Gabbert was a jobber for all the excess culs that the W.Va factories generated and survives to this day but if you want to look at companies making what I call boutique cullet, they have come and gone with predictability. Spruce Pine failed at it and numerous noises of small companies in the northwest have failed to produce anything. We looked at doing it in Shanghai but the shipping issues once it hit the west coast ports were too scary. Making cullet in Mexico only made sense to me if it was done in Monterrey. Tijuana scares me.

Bullseye is the only one that has been capable of making casting materials in all that time because the stuff they make is actually expensive. Poisoning the neighborhood was certainly a setback but even so, they are still on their feet. Uroboros couldn't afford the torit filtration systems but if you looked there, all the windows were deeply etched.

At this point, I understand the new price for the Parriot stuff, the Kugler stuff will all be at $1.60lb which may prove to be profitable for a time. I suggested that price range a year ago and no one believed it. Cristalica is inexplicable for price unless one suspects a subsidy from the German Govt.

It makes SP87 look pretty nice but it will require studios taking a firm grip and accepting the notion that if you want nice glass, you probably really need to make it your self. No one wants to contemplate that at all.

Yesterday, I made up about 100lbs of chalcedony glass in three color tones. It's a hassle, I'll admit but I got this great product no one else can make and setting yourself apart from the field is a genuine formula for success.
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  #61  
Old 03-29-2019, 04:01 PM
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"Last quote I got for Crystallica from Olympic was for the B grade in a supersack."

B grade??????? WTH is that???? There are different types?
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  #62  
Old 03-29-2019, 04:08 PM
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Bottle caps are extra!
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  #63  
Old 03-29-2019, 05:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete VanderLaan View Post
Bottle caps are extra!
I once shoveled out 300 lbs of 4c cullet at RIT to be washed and charged and what did I find? A super cool confederate flag pin that said Im a rebel, whats your excuse?

Today I charged the mini bags of spruce pine. Such a delight.
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  #64  
Old 03-29-2019, 07:41 PM
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Mitchell's lecture was great. You got a couple shout outs from him, Pete.

On a side note, I didn't realize Bill Gates would be teaching me about glass!
Hey now!! (do you know how much of my life I've been told I look like Bill Gates? sheesh! I'm a LOT taller! and MUCH poorer!!)

Thanks for the kind words guys. I'd say we had somewhere between 20 and 25 people in the room for the first LECMO on the first day at 8:30 am. We would have been happy to have 4. We had a group of students who were refurbishing an old color pot at their college in the front row wanting basic info on doing exactly what we were talking about. Add to that we had a LOT of good questions from the floor.

We had polls during the presentation that people could respond to with their phones and the last question at the end of the session was "Are you ready to make color?" and nobody said no on the poll. We were impressed and hopeful!

Maybe some new faces around here. I listed talk.craftweb.com as a potential resource and several call outs to folks.

We would have probably never started melting our own simple colors without you guys are a resource. Credit where credit is due. Now it's time to start the little gas color pot this summer during rebuild and start playing with batching some colors.
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  #65  
Old 03-29-2019, 07:46 PM
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Another view from the Hana, Maui tourist guide:

"You are the cow, you will be milked. "
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  #66  
Old 03-29-2019, 07:54 PM
Mitcheal Veenstra Mitcheal Veenstra is offline
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one more round on the cullet bus from the conference.

Olympic says Charlie's cullet is lithium based, no borax. Kuglar's spec sheet on their chunky bar sized cullet shows a fair amount of barium and a minor amount of borax. Oceanside says that their 'flake' is lithium based as well. But the man I talked to on Thursday morning said it was System 96 compatible, based on the old original spectrum formula, NOT spectrum 2.0. From the way it looked out of the bag it was broken up sheet glass, very dusty. They said it wasn't offcuts from the fusing line but specifically made for the cullet market. They can say what they want, but if it's truly System 96 compatible, then it's like the original Spectrum cullet which is short, shocky, and not compatible with any other clear on the market. (I lived that hell once, that was enough)

Me, I have no idea what I'll melt once I run out of the last of my crystallica. I don't like any alternative except maybe Charlie's and the jury is out until I see a spec sheet and get something to test melt.

There is one last bit of news on the cullet stuff.... Candy at Spruce Pine said they are building two furnaces to bring back Spruce Pine cullet. She warned it won't be cheap. She didn't give me a price. She also said that she didn't know how much throughput they could have on the line just yet. Will it be a viable option? I don't know.

Stay tuned for what happens next in the market!
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  #67  
Old 03-30-2019, 07:31 AM
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I've known about the Spruce Pine plan for a long time but they did not want it to be public . Greg and I have whacked at it from time to time and there were projects that have to ( had to) occur first. I don't sense any urgency. The process is all there. The burners were kept, the conveyors, the bagging, the Lambert mixer, rail and truck, forklifts blah blah blah. But, it won't be cheap. Expect $1.60 to be the floor for the short term and it likely will go higher. One other company I left out of my failures list was Seattle batch. They did not last long and I think they were 55 cents a lb.

Borax and Barium are a dicey combo in a cullet. Cristalica has that combo as well. It was what I initially objected to. Barium up to 3% makes for a bright shiny glass . Lithium in excess will eat at your furnace but in small amounts does a lot of good stuff. Spruce Pine indeed has lithium.

The trouble I see with lithium is price and availability. The battery people want it all and the reason I was asked to write the alternate formula for Spruce Pine was that the word coming down was rationing it. That never happened but I can see it happening potentially.

All in all, it's yet another shake out. If cullet is dusty, you want to think about why that is. Fresh cullet would not be. Something in processing made it dusty.
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Old 03-30-2019, 01:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete VanderLaan View Post
If it is sys96, that glass was a 94.1 as measured by both John Croucher and me.
This fact is predicated (I believe) on whether testing was done on blowing nuggets, or sheet glass.

The standard for testing of system 96 sheet glass production was an actual 96. I witnessed this daily for almost five years.

If Oceanside is following those protocols their system 96 products will, in fact, be a 96. If they follow what was historically done with the blowing nuggets, all bets are off. If they are marketing sys96 clear sheet glass as a blowing cullet I'm skeptical it will go over well. That stuff does not have desirable working qualities.

The whole "studio nugget" methodology remains a mystery to me.
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Old 03-30-2019, 01:36 PM
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Hey now!! (do you know how much of my life I've been told I look like Bill Gates? sheesh! I'm a LOT taller! and MUCH poorer!!)
Do you cut your own hair?
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Old 03-30-2019, 05:15 PM
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It will be at least a year before SP can do more cullet. At least.....
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Old 03-30-2019, 05:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Vriethoff View Post
This fact is predicated (I believe) on whether testing was done on blowing nuggets, or sheet glass.

The standard for testing of system 96 sheet glass production was an actual 96. I witnessed this daily for almost five years.

If Oceanside is following those protocols their system 96 products will, in fact, be a 96. If they follow what was historically done with the blowing nuggets, all bets are off. If they are marketing sys96 clear sheet glass as a blowing cullet I'm skeptical it will go over well. That stuff does not have desirable working qualities.

The whole "studio nugget" methodology remains a mystery to me.
Can you explain why system 96 was not compatible with spruce pine or what spectrum called the 2.0? I have hundreds of checked pieces that that tells me system 96 was never compatible with anything but itself. Im getting closer to the end but still over a ton of system 96 color cullet and very little of the original spectrum clear nuggets that fit left. This new cullet is intriguing to me but you know what they say fool me once etc.....
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  #72  
Old 03-30-2019, 05:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Vriethoff View Post
This fact is predicated (I believe) on whether testing was done on blowing nuggets, or sheet glass.

The standard for testing of system 96 sheet glass production was an actual 96. I witnessed this daily for almost five years.
Entirely based on the temp range.
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Old 03-31-2019, 12:04 AM
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Talking with people at Oceanside Booth

This is what they said at the booth when asked.

The are now producing System 96 Studio Nuggets the non-borax formula that Spectrum was producing in 2017.

They have the furnace running; but don’t have the nugget making equipment running yet; and will have it running soon. Right now it coming of the line in about 1/4” thick sheets and is being broken into chunks, and had a little bit of video of this process. They are calling this temporary product Studio Flake.

They had a bucket of the flakes and a sample bag it will be packaged in. They also said they are targeting a price around $1.55 / lb.. Simular to the 1.60 price Spruce Pine said they’re targeting to sell their collet at. So it looks like the collet market is moving to that range.

For me:

I had to switch to what Spectrum called New Formula Studio Nuggets back 2017 when Olympic ran out of Premium 2.0; but had significant supply of this. I works longer than original Studio Nuggets, and I have had only a couple color fit problems with non System 96 colors.

They said they don’t have distribution set up yet; but will soon, probably with Ed Hoy and D&L at first plus it’s possible to buy direct.

They also said once they have the Studio Nuggets running, a supply build up, and sufficient demand, they will start to do Priemum 2.0.

Even though they are producing the Studio Formula right now, they don’t have any dates; but when I said I had enough supply for me to last most of this year they said I should be fine for replacement before then.

I’ve attached pictures of the flakes and the sample bag.
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File Type: jpg B2E84B4C-A1F7-4961-B318-722A9FE6AA27.jpg (24.1 KB, 30 views)
File Type: jpg BBCB4151-3F61-4416-AA40-823F622E708E.jpg (40.9 KB, 25 views)

Last edited by Dennis Walker; 03-31-2019 at 12:20 AM. Reason: Added pricing
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  #74  
Old 03-31-2019, 09:03 AM
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Not meaning to be a pedant but Premium nuggets were the cullet produced by Spectrum that had the 97.5 LEC. Spectrum 2.0 was the next iteration with an expansion at 96. I do not know of a Premium 2.0 and at this point I think it best to be really clear about it. A question remaining for me is why it's so dusty. That is going to be a problem. Glass dust melts really poorly.

It would be helpful to know who is doing the Beta testing of the product(s) for both expansion and working characteristics.

If this one works out, I expect to see cullet use become balkanized with Seattle doing what it does using Parriot, Spruce Pine supplying the eastern US in pockets, and Oceanside trying to get to a meaningful distribution method.
It does not paint a pretty picture for Cristalica that I can see.

It continues to make the most sense to produce the cullet in the United States.
Expect shipping to add on about .12lb from most anywhere.
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Old 03-31-2019, 11:33 AM
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Quote:
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Can you explain why system 96 was not compatible with spruce pine or what spectrum called the 2.0?
I'm afraid I can't, Sky. Nugget production was entirely under Spectrum's control. I don't know what the ones calling the shots were thinking either, and I knew better than to ask.

All I can tell you is that any cullet/frit that you have should be 96+/-.05. Pete has stated numerous times that the 2.0 nuggets are 94.1. That is a significant enough mismatch to cause problems.

The word "viscosity" has been used at least once in this thread. That's going to be a major factor.
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