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  #76  
Old 03-31-2019, 12:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Vriethoff View Post
I'm afraid I can't, Sky. Nugget production was entirely under Spectrum's control. I don't know what the ones calling the shots were thinking either, and I knew better than to ask.

All I can tell you is that any cullet/frit that you have should be 96+/-.05. Pete has stated numerous times that the 2.0 nuggets are 94.1. That is a significant enough mismatch to cause problems.

The word "viscosity" has been used at least once in this thread. That's going to be a major factor.
I donít think that is correct Pete has never said that as far as I know. The 2.0 is the sp clone and has been proven to be a 96.
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  #77  
Old 03-31-2019, 12:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sky Campbell View Post
I donít think that is correct Pete has never said that as far as I know. The 2.0 is the sp clone and has been proven to be a 96.
Perhaps I'm misquoting. Don't mean to confuse things. Hard to keep track of the whole 96, Premium, 2.0 evolution of Spectrum nuggets.
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  #78  
Old 03-31-2019, 12:53 PM
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I said sys96 is a 94.1 as measured by Croucher and me independently.

Premium nuggets were a 97.5, a problem.
Spectrum 2.0 was a 96, a modern miracle thanks to Nick Labino decades ago.
There is no such thing as Spectrum premium 2.0
Sys 96 is apparently undergoing some sort of Lazarus development with a change in the formulation, so who knows what it is.

Borax in itself is not a terrible problem, It's when you combine it with Barium that things get ugly fast. I think that the term "Flake" will possibly be almost as appropriate as when Heidi Broderbund started selling "Czech Glass". That term was prescient.

When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.
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  #79  
Old 03-31-2019, 02:42 PM
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Here is my understanding of the spectrum lines.

System 96 Studio Nuggets (very borax laden, pretty short)
Premium Nuggets
Premium 2.0 Nuggets (SP Clone)
System 96 Improved Studio Nuggets (no borax longer working time than the Studio Nuggets but shorter than the 2.0)


I personally liked the improved studio. Was a nice middle ground between the studio nuggets and the 2.0. If the new Oceanside is the improved studio formula that might not be bad.
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  #80  
Old 03-31-2019, 03:06 PM
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The issue will become whether the product can be made consistently and in sufficient volume.

That's way harder than it sounds.

I am only aware of Spectrum 2.0. I have never heard them called premium 2.0. It is always possible I have that wrong.
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  #81  
Old 04-01-2019, 05:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete VanderLaan View Post
I said sys96 is a 94.1 as measured by Croucher and me independently.
Thank you for clarifying. Sorry for further contributing to an already muddy lake.

Premium 2.0

Trying to follow the logic behind all of this. Original 96 nuggets (94.1) are/were compatible with other sys96 products (as Sky has stated).

The first iteration of Premium nuggets didn't fit anything.

Premium 2.0 ("SP clone") is a 96, and is not compatible with other sys96 products.

So, the assertion that System 96 products are actually 94.1 makes sense logically. The numbers I saw regularly for sheet glass refute this, but I was not the one doing the polarimetry.

I got nothing.
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  #82  
Old 04-01-2019, 06:36 AM
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And this was ostensibly a company that was trying to support Glass studios.
Their best effort was to lift someone else's formula.

Christ.
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  #83  
Old 04-01-2019, 07:56 AM
Shawn Everette Shawn Everette is offline
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They were telling me that it wasn't the bird droppings and that it what was they were putting out till they finished their new cullet process. It only came in a supersack, and needed to be washed. I passes on the offer, that was about 3 months ago.
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  #84  
Old 04-01-2019, 08:13 AM
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I've used all of them.

System 96 cutoffs; lowest quality melt, leftovers of the flat glass production line, yellow, supersack only, haven't seen it since ~2012, limited pot life, compatible with flat glass only if used within a week. Lots of boric off gassing.

System "Studio" Nuggets; 2nd lowest grade, believe out of cullet production before 2.0, fully compatible with the System 96 and Oceanside product line, use adventurine with caution.

System "Premium" Nuggets; decent blowing cullet, not compatible with 96 flat glass(lost a client that wouldn't believe me about this when his pieces were cracking), few issues with normal color suppliers.

System "Premium" Nuggets 2.0; also decent for blowing, not compatible with flat glass, decent pot life. Used this one the longest, tended to not be too hard on refractories if you charged at your blowing temp. That also helped reduce cording on old pots. No standard color issues, but didn't like most other glass, other than Cristalica.

They had the "premium" as means of differentiating from the "Studio" nuggets as a means to differentiate between the two. System 2.0 and System Premium 2.0 should be the same.

Last edited by Shawn Everette; 04-01-2019 at 08:17 AM. Reason: premium edit
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  #85  
Old 04-01-2019, 08:43 AM
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So, translating yet again
"Studio" means exactly what in English? Low grade production?
"Premium" means it costs more because you're worth it?

I want "Batchmeister's Special Reserve" before I buy anything.

In the meantime you get "Makes it's own gravy".
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  #86  
Old 04-01-2019, 08:49 AM
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Addressed the b grade on another post, but beginning of January that's what they had to offer.

True, I could probably use a refresher on the cullet history, only been using it about 7 years, but it seemed like for a while things were running somewhat smoothly supply wise for a heavy user with Spectrum from 2012-2017. It went from, yeah you might have to wait ~2 months for 6-8k lbs to, we'll put you on the list, check back in 4 months and I might have a pallet for you.

In all honesty I think you're right about the "boutique" end of it, and that the price being held down probably helped lead to the problems we're having now. As a result I'm looking at the hike up to $1.50-1.60 as something that was inevitable, you melting glass for me so I barely have to should come at a price. I have a tendency to think that many glass blowers don't understand incremental inflation, and when the bills come home to roost there is a problem.
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  #87  
Old 04-01-2019, 09:18 AM
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For the people making expensive work, this is not an issue really. If you sell something for $300 dollars or more and the actual piece weighs four pounds, the expense increase will be something around $2.00 dollars, hardly a dent in the bottom line.

If on the other hand you're making widgets under twenty bucks, it's a big jump. It's also a big jump for the people teaching either in schools or private shops. When I was a TA at pilchuck, we went through 3,000 lbs of cullet a week. That would be noticable. At the same time, Spruce Pine batch is .72 cents a lb. You get what you pay for and convenience seems to be the name of the game.

"People want their glass to come out of a toothpaste tube" - Karl Platt.
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  #88  
Old 04-01-2019, 09:37 AM
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Not sure that "studio" or "premium" meant anything other than it was an easy way to differentiate between the one that was formulated to be compatible with it's flat glass and some blowing color; and the one that made to be more compatible with all of the blowing color and none of the flat glass. You're probably right that they wanted glass blowers to feel special because it cost more. I mean, don't we all use our Dino's on our Lino's?

Workability wise I think the hype around "premium" was overrated, color wise I feel it was a little clearer. They're both fine blowing glasses, and I've only come across a few compatibility issues with the "studio". Mostly soft blues and greens in mass seem to be a problem, might be doing a duro test next week.

You should probably copyright Batchmeister.
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  #89  
Old 04-01-2019, 10:10 AM
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So, to get this clear (joke), Oceanside has a cullet right now that matches their System 96, but not 2.0. They will at sometime start making Premium 2.0, but not sure when.... is that right?
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  #90  
Old 04-01-2019, 10:24 AM
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That appears to be the way it's headed, but I'm not sure what "similar to 2.0" was supposed to mean, and they are using the term cullet rather loosely. When I was using their cutoffs, which looks very similar to the samples, it was not a clean glass by any measure.
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  #91  
Old 04-01-2019, 11:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawn Everette View Post
. I mean, don't we all use our Dino's on our Lino's?

You should probably copyright Batchmeister.
******
I still happily use my jacks from Cutting Edge from 20 years back. They have helped me make really expensive work as well as some really cheap shit.

You are no doubt right about Batchmeister. It sounds like it could be a beer or a glass cullet.
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  #92  
Old 04-01-2019, 11:58 AM
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The other thing that seems to be missing in all of this is a really glaring omission:

So what are the Linear expansions of all these glasses? Pedants want to know.
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  #93  
Old 04-01-2019, 02:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Walker View Post
The are now producing System 96 Studio Nuggets the non-borax formula that Spectrum was producing in 2017. 2.0.
.
This would indicate that this is the improved studio nuggets (no borax version) that were the last version of studio nuggets. Seemed about halfway between original studio nuggets and premium 2.0 when we were using it.
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  #94  
Old 04-01-2019, 02:42 PM
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drumroll.... and the expansion and who measured it?

In the earlier days of all this about sys96 and the dissolution of equipment, Spectrum blamed it on poor crucible manufacturers. I did just ask John and he said this was the first he'd heard of a do over. Did anyone grab an actual sample?
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  #95  
Old 04-01-2019, 09:46 PM
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For that it is worth having gone though all of the nuggets. This is what I remember.

Studio Nuggets: Had two different bags. White Bag Black letters, Red Triangle with 96 in it. Second bag was white, Large black S, small red triangle with 96 in it. Short working time. Corrosive to the furnace because of borax. Came in around 94.

Spectrum Premium Nuggets: White bag, Blue Large letters, Big Blue S, black letters. Bump in working time, less corrosive. Still left white fuzz but not near as much on the door. Came in around 97.5 ish If I remember correctly. I had clouding problems with this glass at one point. OP Reds seemed to really get sideways with this one. So did Pete's black but I tossed that up to user error and was on the next version before I tried again without issue.

Premium Nuggets 2.0: White bag, Green solid band across the top, green lettering. Labino knock-off. Best of the three glasses. I however found it to be the hazy one of the group. The first nuggets being the clearest.

There was also the CBG cullet. Shiver...I would like to forget about if at all possible. Ate your furnace like pacman. chomp chomp chomp.

So CBG, Spectrum Studio Nuggets(first one), and Crystallica all eat your furnace. Over the years Pete reminded us more than once why and they all seemed to have the same chemical doing the damage.

I suspect once I burn though this SPB I will give Pete's mix a try I like SPB but I want something that is missing that I just can't put my finger on.
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  #96  
Old 04-02-2019, 07:32 AM
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Did you see that picture Greg posted in the cullet shortage thread. I know of no other material that creates that fluffy looking stuff besides borax. I think the blue color is coming from somewhere else. I fully expect someone will blame all this on Giberson burner heads shortly.

If you do try mine, it takes them about a month to process the request. I hope it pleases you.

A real question I haven't been considering is what this balkanization of cullet is going to do to the people who have made a lot of cane and rely on it.
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Old 04-02-2019, 08:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete VanderLaan View Post
A real question I haven't been considering is what this balkanization of cullet is going to do to the people who have made a lot of cane and rely on it.
One sweet black market. Let the hoarding begin.
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Old 04-02-2019, 08:55 AM
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Hey Dennis, make sure to check out the pictures posted on the cullet shortage thread, the new flake looks like some pretty nasty stuff.

I couldn't remember off the top of my head, but I though you were running electric. This new stuff will probably eat a hole somewhere though your furnace in no time.

I know you've used a lot of the spectrum/uroburos flat for the color. Does anyone know if anything else is compatible with spectrum/oceanside flat glass?
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  #99  
Old 04-02-2019, 09:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawn Everette View Post
Does anyone know if anything else is compatible with spectrum/oceanside flat glass?
If your melting system 96 in the furnace you will have to test every melt. The opaques especially change Coe as they are melted. I don't think there is one size fits all if that's the direction you are talking about. If you just want to use the system 96 as frit or pick up as outside decoration you can get away with most of the available "96coe" glasses. Just forget deep encasement such as paperweights.

Sounds like the spectrum flake is along the same Coe as the system 96 colors. Shrugg all the water is muddy at the moment.
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  #100  
Old 04-02-2019, 09:48 AM
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The water indeed is muddy. When Seattle Batch was bringing the cloned cullet in for Gaffer glass from China, I looked at the price and as I recall it was about .55 lb. If I considered the costs involved in making the glass , shipping the glass and marketing the glass, at .55, there was no room for the material to be carefully engineered, and it wasn't. I had spreads up to about 8 points when testing from container to container. I should make it clear, this was not a gaffer product in any way.

In my experience, you're going to see a certain amount of movement in the expansion of any glass manufactured this way but it should not be very much from batch to batch unless the engineering is really sloppy. Sky suggests this is an area for caution, I agree sadly. It should not be that way.

The thing with sheet glass that Spectrum made its bones on was the stained glass home industry. In the crash of 2008, that hobby was really abandoned and the market crunch severe. Sheet glass doesn't need to be consistent from one pane to the next if you aren't fusing. I suspect that in the drive to regain market access, there were short cuts on research results. The product line was bought up and we're just seeing the market trying the stuff out and getting results they didn't want.

Again, wait awhile before ordering anything. Listen to people howling at the moon.
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