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  #51  
Old 07-17-2019, 04:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Geiger View Post
The rule of thumb I found was to spend no less on a ventilation system than on a torch. Back in the day before certain things were classified as carcinogenic I got zonked out of my mind on fumes cleaning optics from what is not classified as carcinogenic. I don't care how safe it is supposed to be. I am not about to break decades of training to be a dirty old man for want of a proper ventilation system; ever.
This triggered a memory for me, Don.

Twenty years ago I had a job living in Seattle as a metal finisher for blacksmith/fabrication operation. I spent my days in a spray booth in coveralls wearing a respirator, and rubber boots and gloves. Acids for patinas, and solvents and lacquers for clear coating, etc. Most of the hazmat stuff was in my area, so I ended-up being the safety person for the entire shop. One of the fab guys approached me one day, and wanted to make sure we had the right filters for his respirator as he was going to be welding a bronze gate all day. I assured him we did. He came back to me the next day pissed-off because he still had zinc fever the night after. I then asked about ventilation, and he said he didn't think he needed any due to the respirator. He was shoved in the corner of the shop all day without even a fan to blow the fumes away from his face. I think he simply saw my response as a deflection.

There were certain chemicals I refused to touch. They often used epoxy coatings for exterior applications. Those things are nasty, and require special equipment. An air purifying respirator doesn't work for these fumes, so you need to use a supplied air unit. The one they had was ill-equipped, and also broken. I think I caved once, and did some small parts. I tried my best to get out of the booth between each coat.

I'm not here to shoot anyone down, or get into a "pissing match." There's nothing wrong with being challenged on ones knowledge. Arguing is part of the process of moving the ball forward. Fighting is another issue. There are healthy and unhealthy ways of arguing.

I have a tendency to err on the side of caution (esp. when it comes to what I breathe). Having been born with a chronic lung disease has led me to learn as much as I can about proper protection. What I have found to be the case is that most people don't even know the basics (case in point; welder I talked about above). Filters have different levels of efficiency, and they all have thresholds. I would be surprised if anyone reading this knows what those letters and numbers on your filters actually mean (N,R,P,95,100, etc.). You'll get a gold star if you can do it without the googles. Know the difference between organic and inorganic fumes? What does particulate mean?

As to the question of long-term effects you could say I'm living proof. Even with all the precautions I took at the job I have developed contact allergies to certain chemicals. I think the job coupled with my early use of HXTAL has led to epoxy sensitivity. This allergic reaction is developed through overexposure (which can be found on the SDS). I had a skin test done a year and a half ago, and I'm allergic to that and several other chemicals. I had it done after I broke out in a rash sleeping on one of our new sofas that has some special new stain resist chemical. Still don't know what the exact chemical is, but now I just don't touch that sofa.

It's easy to become complacent in these matters just because what you've always done seems to be working. Again, I'm overly cautious. I don't recommend anyone go out a buy a bunch of expensive equipment they don't really need, but doing your homework is always a good idea.

Thanks for reading my rant. I've gone off about this several times here, but it's an important issue for me.

Anyone wanna buy a sofa?
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Last edited by Greg Vriethoff; 07-18-2019 at 08:54 AM. Reason: gramamar
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  #52  
Old 07-17-2019, 05:10 PM
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At one point I suggested that Hxtal was a serious issue and the Hxtal gods threatened me with legal action. In turn I suggested that the basis for my observations was the issuance of a report out of the Los Alamos Labs on the very subject.
The hxtal people demanded a copy of the report and I responded that I had sent it to Herbert, the inventor of the goop years earlier and that he had dismissed it with vocal gusto. That was the last I heard from them.

Anything you can smell is interacting with your brain. Except of course for Bacon...Bacon vapors will not yellow or tarnish with age, makes childbirth a pleasure, slices and dices and survives Nuclear Holocausts. But not Canadian bacon. That shit will kill you .
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  #53  
Old 07-17-2019, 06:20 PM
Larry Cazes Larry Cazes is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete VanderLaan View Post
At one point I suggested that Hxtal was a serious issue and the Hxtal gods threatened me with legal action. In turn I suggested that the basis for my observations was the issuance of a report out of the Los Alamos Labs on the very subject.
The hxtal people demanded a copy of the report and I responded that I had sent it to Herbert, the inventor of the goop years earlier and that he had dismissed it with vocal gusto. That was the last I heard from them.

Anything you can smell is interacting with your brain. Except of course for Bacon...Bacon vapors will not yellow or tarnish with age, makes childbirth a pleasure, slices and dices and survives Nuclear Holocausts. But not Canadian bacon. That shit will kill you .
Got that report or a link to it handy?
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  #54  
Old 07-17-2019, 08:06 PM
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It went to Herbert back around '98. I've moved and don't want to look for it really. I have it as hardcopy here from somewhere. It was real. Herbery died of Lung Cancer. He was also a chain smoker. He should never have been in retail.
\
Ventilate your studio, wear gloves. throw out your waste gloves , cleaning materials, blah blah blah and put it in airtight bags. I don't care what the material is. If you can smell it, it is reacting with you.


But not like bacon....
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  #55  
Old 07-18-2019, 08:17 PM
Don Geiger Don Geiger is offline
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Thumbs up Much Appreciated

Hey Greg,

Much appreciated!

Allow me to be blunt. I do not care where the wisdom comes from. The bottom line is, it is hard won wisdom and it was shared. For that I thank you.

That it was about proper ventilation and the hazards being avoided is all the more important to me.

Permit me to inflict a rant. I watch You Tube, especially glass work. I watch some young guy (a much younger me) using a box window fan as their only ventilation. I cannot throw stones. I want to. I want to holler back across the years of my mistakes and don't. My younger self was immortal. It cost me two cornea replacements. I count myself lucky that so far that is all.

I learned. My hope is that others are smarter than I was and learn from my errors without having to repeat them.

Suffice it to say what you shared struck a cord. It is appreciated. If anything I ever post strikes a cord for you, please share again.

Thank you.

Cheers,

Don



Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Vriethoff View Post
This triggered a memory for me, Don.

Twenty years ago I had a job living in Seattle as a metal finisher for blacksmith/fabrication operation. I spent my days in a spray booth in coveralls wearing a respirator, and rubber boots and gloves. Acids for patinas, and solvents and lacquers for clear coating, etc. Most of the hazmat stuff was in my area, so I ended-up being the safety person for the entire shop. One of the fab guys approached me one day, and wanted to make sure we had the right filters for his respirator as he was going to be welding a bronze gate all day. I assured him we did. He came back to me the next day pissed-off because he still had zinc fever the night after. I then asked about ventilation, and he said he didn't think he needed any due to the respirator. He was shoved in the corner of the shop all day without even a fan to blow the fumes away from his face. I think he simply saw my response as a deflection.

There were certain chemicals I refused to touch. They often used epoxy coatings for exterior applications. Those things are nasty, and require special equipment. An air purifying respirator doesn't work for these fumes, so you need to use a supplied air unit. The one they had was ill-equipped, and also broken. I think I caved once, and did some small parts. I tried my best to get out of the booth between each coat.

I'm not here to shoot anyone down, or get into a "pissing match." There's nothing wrong with being challenged on ones knowledge. Arguing is part of the process of moving the ball forward. Fighting is another issue. There are healthy and unhealthy ways of arguing.

I have a tendency to err on the side of caution (esp. when it comes to what I breathe). Having been born with a chronic lung disease has led me to learn as much as I can about proper protection. What I have found to be the case is that most people don't even know the basics (case in point; welder I talked about above). Filters have different levels of efficiency, and they all have thresholds. I would be surprised if anyone reading this knows what those letters and numbers on your filters actually mean (N,R,P,95,100, etc.). You'll get a gold star if you can do it without the googles. Know the difference between organic and inorganic fumes? What does particulate mean?

As to the question of long-term effects you could say I'm living proof. Even with all the precautions I took at the job I have developed contact allergies to certain chemicals. I think the job coupled with my early use of HXTAL has led to epoxy sensitivity. This allergic reaction is developed through overexposure (which can be found on the SDS). I had a skin test done a year and a half ago, and I'm allergic to that and several other chemicals. I had it done after I broke out in a rash sleeping on one of our new sofas that has some special new stain resist chemical. Still don't know what the exact chemical is, but now I just don't touch that sofa.

It's easy to become complacent in these matters just because what you've always done seems to be working. Again, I'm overly cautious. I don't recommend anyone go out a buy a bunch of expensive equipment they don't really need, but doing your homework is always a good idea.

Thanks for reading my rant. I've gone off about this several times here, but it's an important issue for me.

Anyone wanna buy a sofa?
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  #56  
Old 07-19-2019, 09:03 AM
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Pete VanderLaan Pete VanderLaan is offline
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If your studio can achieve a complete air change every three minutes it will still be really hot. Once a minute is better. More if you are melting toxic stuff. Insulating your hood and isolating the heat generating equipment there is smart. Most studios are hopelessly under ventilated.

Box fans in windows are perhaps more than useless.
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  #57  
Old 07-19-2019, 04:43 PM
Larry Cazes Larry Cazes is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Geiger View Post
Hey Greg,

Much appreciated!

Allow me to be blunt. I do not care where the wisdom comes from. The bottom line is, it is hard won wisdom and it was shared. For that I thank you.

That it was about proper ventilation and the hazards being avoided is all the more important to me.

Permit me to inflict a rant. I watch You Tube, especially glass work. I watch some young guy (a much younger me) using a box window fan as their only ventilation. I cannot throw stones. I want to. I want to holler back across the years of my mistakes and don't. My younger self was immortal. It cost me two cornea replacements. I count myself lucky that so far that is all.

I learned. My hope is that others are smarter than I was and learn from my errors without having to repeat them.

Suffice it to say what you shared struck a cord. It is appreciated. If anything I ever post strikes a cord for you, please share again.

Thank you.

Cheers,

Don
Yes. Youtube, though, is NOT a good source of info. The level of expertise among this population tends to be rather low and as you see a lot of the practices are questionable at best. A lot of us do run full overhead hoods with sufficient airflow.
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  #58  
Old 09-22-2019, 11:37 PM
Robert Melvin Robert Melvin is offline
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it is my understanding the process or gold livering is reversible by returning to a high temperature which redissolves the gold particles. Is this correct?

Also, if I wanted to work with a most beautiful and usable gold glass that is phosphate based, and no-lead, how might I locate a recipe to start with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete VanderLaan View Post
Gold glasses can liver in reflective light if the molecules get big enough and I suspect that's what you are seeing. I make a gold chloride solution for my rubies and then mix it in gold sands. My friend john just pours the gold chloride into the batch,
There are three important things in the receiving batch, Gold , lead and selenium.
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