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Old 11-26-2017, 01:11 PM
Max Epstein Max Epstein is offline
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My First Furnace Build Thread

Hey everyone! This week and next I'll be documenting my build! Attached is a copy of my email to Charlie Correll and am looking for advice, critique of my build. What would you differently?




Details on my build... goal is a bigger, more insulated, Big Dragon from Mobile Glassblowing Studios that heats up in 6 hours instead of 3-4. I will be running 3-4 days, then 3-4 days off.

I will be using the furnace as a combination glory/furnace, with a small secondary port on the side for gathering bits/assisting. I really liked Bill Gudenrath's setup, and also taking MBGS as inspiration.

Top burner. Although, putting the burner in the back might be good for the port setup/"freestanding" pot.

Giberson 255 burner.

Originally, we wanted to keep the weight down as it was to be mobile (the castable dome instead of a lot of brick). Now, I'm thinking I should just make it as efficient as possible for my studio, and use my old furnace as my mobile rig (I know this design is still a compromise).


34"x34" frame

-16" O.D. 106lb crucible (*mostly freestanding with some lightweight castable)
-3" clearance (as recommended by Pete, 1.5" either side -- Christian, my friend, was only going to leave around .5-1")
--------------------
= 15" of insulation, 7.5" either side
--------------------
4.5" 2800* BNZ brick EIF 3.15 = 12.1765
3" Frax EIF 12 = 36

= 50.17 total EIF
or 61.17 if we leave .5" around the crucible.


Top:

4.5" 2600* castable EIF 2.92 = 13.4
2.5" 3000* castable EIF 2.92 = 7.3
3" Frax EIF 12 = 36

= 56.7 total EIF

Bottom:

4.5" 2600* castable EIF 2.92 = 13.14
2.5" 2800* brick EIF 3.15 = 7.875
1" 2300* fiber board bottom EIF ????

= 21 total EIF

**Christian was intentionally leaving this to let some heat escape. To heat up faster? Less mass? I can't remember**

**I'm thinking this should be insulated better**
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I also found some Silicon Carbide kiln shelves good to Cone 16. They're about $70 each for 18"x18" or $420 for the furnace. We were gonna use these up top to help with the top burner when using brick before moving to the cast dome.

The sills will be cast in mullite.

The guys at Larkin Refractory are recommending we line the entire chamber with 3100* mullite castable.

All the 55lb bags are basically the same price, 2800, 2600, 3100, etc.......

That's what I got so far! My research.


Happy Friendsgiving, ya'll!


Max
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Old 11-26-2017, 02:02 PM
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Pete VanderLaan Pete VanderLaan is offline
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six hours is an extremely ambitious heating schedule for both the pot and the refractory materials. I would not expect a long lifespan for the pot.
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Old 11-26-2017, 02:46 PM
Max Epstein Max Epstein is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete VanderLaan View Post
six hours is an extremely ambitious heating schedule for both the pot and the refractory materials. I would not expect a long lifespan for the pot.
I *think* I'm okay with that. Most firings would be overnight, just would like the capability to fire quickly if needed.
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Old 11-26-2017, 06:01 PM
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you don't have it.
The crucible is made out of materials ( in your case ) which are really resistant to thermal shock. It's coarse grained ( allows for sudden expansion) tabular alumina(which doesn't expand much) and china clay for elasicity which it also has to have. It will put up with so much before the heat, causing the expansion makes the fabric expand too irregularly and a stress separation occurs.

It's true of the rest of your refractory as well. The crown, the walls , the floor are all moving and at about 1000F more and less, the expansion occurs in spades. Passing through what is called "Quartz inversion " of the silicon atom is really an issue in ceramic engineering of which Glass plays a role.

Investing a pot stops the action indeed, at a great cost. It inevitably is done to prevent a leak in the pot but the pot is really always shot well before that occurs. I hate invested pots. I liken it to melting in a garbage can and I can't convince anyone that stance is true. I no longer try.

But, if you try to melt in a freestanding pot at the schedule you propose. that pot is going to crack sooner than later and I mean sooner.
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Old 11-26-2017, 07:39 PM
Eben Horton Eben Horton is offline
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I would have 3 backup pots on hand at all times.

If it were me, Iíd make the furnace with a 3inch Mizzou liner and 5 inches of fiber. Iíd cast the sill from Mizzou and the hearth from castolite 30. Mullite castable isnít widely used in furnace building, but thatís just my opinion.
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Old 11-26-2017, 08:02 PM
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The closest castable to a mullite ( 76% alumina, 24% silica) would be a kruzite which I recall is a 70% alumina. Mullite hasn't been around for years actually and is replaced with Kyanite, a synthetic.
Silicon carbide is highly reactive with glass. Just sayin'.
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Old 11-27-2017, 01:58 AM
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Eben... you're right. I don't know where I got mullite from. Supermax MZ (3100*) is what Larkin suggested for the sills.

I like your recommendation. Seems pretty straight forward.
-----

Pete... what is the most aggressive schedule for firing you could even begin to suggest? How many cycles do you think the pot will last ? I know that's a loaded question.

Is there a crucible out there more suitable for this type of application?

-----------------

One thing's for sure -- my second furnace is gonna be a lot different!

Thank you both for the education.
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Old 11-27-2017, 08:30 AM
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Both EC and Hi Temp make the most resistant thermal shock formulas out there and they are really similar. I suspect EC fires them hotter and these days I recommend that people take their High Temp pots up to 2500 before putting anything in them .
That being said: The fastest I have ever pushed a pot that was free standing involved turning it on at 7:00 AM and loading at 6:00 PM. 200F per hour to 1000 with a hold for an hour, then to 1100F in one hour, then cranked as hard as it would go. It was loading fluorines so the melts occurred at 2100F. This kind of cycle was also very hard on the furnace and you could listen to it creaking as it expanded and that's not good.

Keep in mind that a pot doesn't stay in the furnace long when you're making color. They fail, or get chucked for contamination reasons at under 20 melts. The are never turned on and off.
If I was doing a travelling on off show, I'd be inclined to invest the pot or to simply use brick and I hate investing. Free standing is a heartbreaker the way you intend to do it.

Somewhere out there in education land, the purpose of pots became utterly lost on new studios. They should not be turned on and off. In batch, they're nominally good for 70-90 cycles max and then should be replaced. There simply were no weekend warriors when I was actively running a good sized studio from 1971-1990. Then they hit like a tidal wave with what you see today, inventing new rules that don't really work, using boutique cullets, shovelling in the glass and turning it all on over a thursday evening and coming home from work fri afternoon, ripping off the tie, getting a six pack and making stuff.
I know many people who absolutely hate our pots. I know old school guys who I consistently expect to want a replacement every 90 cycles and they do fine. They are careful. They are perfectly happy campers. Without exception people either swear by, or swear at all three pot makers in the US.

I'm simply telling you that your proposal will let you down more than you expect.
Dan Fenton: "Glass remembers everything you ever do to it."
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Old 11-27-2017, 08:38 AM
Josh Bernbaum Josh Bernbaum is offline
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We hear a lot about "weekend warriors" who shut down during the week and just fire up a furnace each weekend, but I wonder if anyone has really crunched the numbers on efficiency of fuel used. What if it's actually more efficient to just leave the thing on, maybe at a lower temp setting, than shutting off and re-heating each week? Perhaps you might spend less on fuel then the costs of replacing pots (and maybe other cast furnace parts) prematurely? Just thinking out loud, and I suppose the price you pay for fuel would be a factor for sure.
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Old 11-27-2017, 09:24 AM
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I agree. It does seem to be the case that the conventional weekend warrior furnace is almost always an under-insulated converted bisque kiln , powered by electricity and it is inevitably expensive except in the NW.

It is difficult to turn a gas unit down to 1300F unless it has a very nice burner system and that normally contradicts the investment made by the weekend crowd.
On/Off certainly wears the pot out in a hurry and they aren't cheap, the biggest used by that crowd being about 80lb.

I tend to think it's a question of how you value your time coupled to the market you have for product..
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Old 11-27-2017, 09:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Bernbaum View Post
We hear a lot about "weekend warriors" who shut down during the week and just fire up a furnace each weekend, but I wonder if anyone has really crunched the numbers on efficiency of fuel used. What if it's actually more efficient to just leave the thing on, maybe at a lower temp setting, than shutting off and re-heating each week? Perhaps you might spend less on fuel then the costs of replacing pots (and maybe other cast furnace parts) prematurely? Just thinking out loud, and I suppose the price you pay for fuel would be a factor for sure.
Well, you're right. Maybe leaving it on isn't such a bad thing. Right now, I'm running on Propane, at $2.20 a gallon. And I'm burning around 1-1.5 gallons an hour in my old furnace, so that adds up quick. As in $1500/month if it's on 24/7.

That being said, I'm making the switch to natural gas (thank G-d), which is .40 per ccf. I'm having some trouble finding a conversion from propane, or how much I'd be burning per hour. But even at half that price, or $750/month for the furnace I *might* be able to swing. I'd love to be around $400-500.

My quandary is I'm still low on the totem pole as far as studios go. I really can't afford to run a glory and furnace at the same time right now, so the Mobile Glass style really appeals to me. That, and I have 3 mobile gigs lined up next year for $1000 so far. In my own mind, $3000 is 6 crucibles. Even if I go through 3 this year, I'm still "making money". And having the furnace on only half of the week *in my own mind* could be half a crucible per month. So, if I'm changing the crucible every 2 months, I'm breaking even. If it's longer than that, I'm saving money.

The obvious solution is to keep my old furnace as my mobile rig, and build the new one to stay parked in the studio.

Maybe I shoulda just build a wire melter instead and run a glory. Haha.
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Old 11-27-2017, 12:25 PM
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Max,

Listen to Pete and Eben. This road has already been trodden.
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Old 11-27-2017, 06:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Max Epstein View Post
The obvious solution is to keep my old furnace as my mobile rig, and build the new one to stay parked in the studio.
For god's sake, this. Or build a glory hole with a crucible sunk into the bottom or something for the mobile jobs. Don't compromise the design of your new furnace just to scoop up a few extra grand in side work. You're going to be relying on this piece of equipment for years to come. Build it to minimize your operating costs as much as possible (i.e. don't build bigger than you need and insulate the hell out of it), and that will end up paying huge dividends over the lifetime of the furnace.
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Old 11-27-2017, 07:06 PM
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A furnace of this nature should cost less than 4K to build unless you get suckered by someone. Eric and I talked last night about gutting the unit I currently have and making it so it holds one 80 lb pot and two 14 lb pots. We have reserve potential but don't feel we need that right now. I'll start on taking off the top in the next few days and he's coming up the 4rth to work on the metal. You might consider coming up to see what we're up to.
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Old 11-27-2017, 07:16 PM
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A bit of design feedback:

- Overall, good design for what you're trying to accomplish (rugged furnace on a shoestring budget, to be used for reheats while you're working). It's definitely on the under-insulated side.

- For the top, I'd recommend switching the 2600 degree castable out for 2600 degree frax if possible. Pack an inch or two of high-temp frax against the crown, then switch to the lower-temp stuff for the rest of the top.

- Side walls are under-insulated. Even if you need to make pop-out panels for the existing frame or something, another inch or two of frax here will help a lot.

- I am confused about the bottom, your list shows it with 4.5" of low-density castable and the drawing does not (unless that's talking about the pot investment stuff in the corners). Assuming there isn't actually 4.5" of castable as part of the floor, this should have some more fiber board laid up underneath for insulation. At least another inch of 2300-deg board, then you should be able to switch to a 1900-deg board after that. 2" of each would be good.
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Old 11-27-2017, 10:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Epstein View Post
Well, you're right. Maybe leaving it on isn't such a bad thing. Right now, I'm running on Propane, at $2.20 a gallon. And I'm burning around 1-1.5 gallons an hour in my old furnace, so that adds up quick. As in $1500/month if it's on 24/7.

That being said, I'm making the switch to natural gas (thank G-d), which is .40 per ccf. I'm having some trouble finding a conversion from propane, or how much I'd be burning per hour.

1 gallon of propane is ~91k BTU = $2.41 per 100,000 BTU at your quoted prices
1 ccf of natural gas is ~100k BTU = $0.40 per 100,000 BTU at your quoted prices

$1500 in a month in propane ~= 680 gallons at your prices ~= 620 CCF of natural gas to get the same amount of energy, which would put your gas bill closer to $250/month.


I guess I just lurk here to do word problems now.
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Old 11-28-2017, 08:14 AM
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Thank God for Border Collies.

OK George, : A glassblower makes 28 pieces of glass a day and 20 percent are seconds, The price of a second averages 8 dollars but as high as 12 dollars. If he goes to a show that cost 40 dollars for the application fee and the booth is 1/8th of what he anticipates selling at the show, which is three days and requires a 80 dollar hotel room from priceline, and factor in the cost of bad food at the concessions as 12 dollars per day, plus the expense at the ER for food poisoning, at what point does the glass blower break even? How many sales will that take? Factor in mental health care issues.

Max, if those numbers are accurate, your crucible cost is I believe $350 bucks. The cost of the fuel if you simply turn the furnace down to even 1700F would not take much fuel and you would gain a day. Based in your schedule, I think if you shut it off, it will hardly be cooled down before you refire it. But George can calculate that I suspect.
Better to have a campaign and make stuff and shut down for longer intervals while you count the loot.

I hate propane costs. It's such a rip off.
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Old 11-28-2017, 10:19 AM
John Riepma John Riepma is offline
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The story problem above is easy to answer - the break-even point is just before you start.
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Old 11-28-2017, 10:58 AM
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It's known as The Eben Horton Parallax contradiction.

"A body not in motion is better off staying that way."
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Old 11-28-2017, 12:19 PM
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Is this going to be on the test?
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Old 11-28-2017, 01:43 PM
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Perhaps. But it will have such problems as "There is a client moving away from your booth westbound at 6 miles per hour ( a hasty walk). You need lunch from the food booths to your east 1/4 mile and will walk at 2 miles per hour stopping to talk to hot women. you are pretty sure the client will turn around and proceed back to your booth at 1/2 the speed in 1/3 hour. How much time can you take going to the food booth and returning?
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Old 11-28-2017, 01:47 PM
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The final question is "How many serious minded glassworkers does it take to rescue a completely hijacked thread?"
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Old 11-28-2017, 06:44 PM
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I'm just here after entering the term "hijacked thread" in the search function.
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Old 11-29-2017, 03:34 AM
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You guys crack me up. Just finished day 2.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Trulson View Post
For god's sake, this. Or build a glory hole with a crucible sunk into the bottom or something for the mobile jobs. Don't compromise the design of your new furnace just to scoop up a few extra grand in side work. You're going to be relying on this piece of equipment for years to come. Build it to minimize your operating costs as much as possible (i.e. don't build bigger than you need and insulate the hell out of it), and that will end up paying huge dividends over the lifetime of the furnace.
That was the goal from the beginning... build a good glory hole (x2) that also has a pot in it that can travel and also be a pipe warmer.

So we took your (and everyone's) advice and are focusing on building the best glory with a pot in it we can. And investing.

I agree with you Pete, freestanding is the way to go. But not in a furnace like this. Soooo investing it goes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete VanderLaan View Post
A furnace of this nature should cost less than 4K to build unless you get suckered by someone. Eric and I talked last night about gutting the unit I currently have and making it so it holds one 80 lb pot and two 14 lb pots. We have reserve potential but don't feel we need that right now. I'll start on taking off the top in the next few days and he's coming up the 4rth to work on the metal. You might consider coming up to see what we're up to.
This is the exact furnace I had been chatting Charlie up about a while back... and what I plan to build when I make a permanent "actual furnace". He tried to convince me to have two, one dedicated to color.....

I'd love to come up but I'm totally slammed until January. My busiest month for sure. Take some pictures for me.

Also yeah, 4k sounds about right.

All prices shipped.

Refractory: $1750
Crucible: $425
Burner/Mixer: $275
Metal: $500
Casters: $200
Plumbing: $200
Electric: $250
Misc: $250

Beer/Pizza: $100

Total: $3950

-------

Flame Safety: ~$2600
Blower/Computer/Thermocouple: ~$2600


GRAND TOTAL: $9,150

Add another $1250 for an electrician/plumber.

Quote:
Originally Posted by George Vidas View Post
1 gallon of propane is ~91k BTU = $2.41 per 100,000 BTU at your quoted prices
1 ccf of natural gas is ~100k BTU = $0.40 per 100,000 BTU at your quoted prices

$1500 in a month in propane ~= 680 gallons at your prices ~= 620 CCF of natural gas to get the same amount of energy, which would put your gas bill closer to $250/month.


I guess I just lurk here to do word problems now.
Thank you... so much. That's music to my ears. I hope that's truly correct (I have no reason to doubt you... just flabberghasted -- maybe I can keep my shop doors open)...

If I can have my little all in one unit for less than $500 a month I'd be thrilled.


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Pictures coming in the next post.

Last edited by Max Epstein; 11-29-2017 at 03:38 AM.
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Old 11-29-2017, 08:34 AM
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If your gas bill is really that low, I'll be impressed. Instead of a pot in the gloryhole, you might get some kruzite brick from charlie and make a baby tank in there. They're 70% alumina and would work OK for a while. Indestructible if nothing else

I'm much inclined to photograph the re-tooling of this furnace. It has served me really well in the last year but it needs a bigger clear pot and I did not build to accommodate that in height. So, the crown has to come off and it's perfect, the back wall needs to move out 2 inches into the overkill insulation back there and it needs to go higher given both the pot height as well as the gathering angle, so that means a new front plate and some Eric welding and cutting. The burner block needs to be re done to get above glass line but the safety system I like so much will be unchanged. Longer mixing tube though. It should take about ten days given the general competence level of the workers.
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