CraftWEB Hot Glass Talk  

Go Back   CraftWEB Hot Glass Talk > Hot Glass > General Hot Glass Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 04-14-2015, 03:15 PM
Jordan Kube Jordan Kube is offline
?
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 1,488
Jordan Kube is on a distinguished road
Speaking of cullet

Last week we received cullet from Spectrum that was full of stones. This was regular nuggets not the 2.0. We ended up with over 250 seconds from this bad glass. Needless to say it cost the company a lot of time and money.

One bag from 4/3/15 had 47 stones per 50 pound bag. Another from 3/21/15 had 39 stones per 50 pound bag. I do not have the lot numbers because the chargers charged and tossed the bags. I should have put them in a different spot.

They mostly look like small little pieces of AZS. Very white. We had two Spectrum engineers out to look at them. OCR replaced all our cullet with good cullet and Spectrum is looking into it on their end. The replacement cullet from around the same date seems fine.

The easiest way to look for these stones is to pour out 20-30 nuggets at a time into a pan or container that is filled with water so it just covers the nuggets. It makes the surface defects disappear and lets you see into the nugget easier.

Quality control seems to have been on vacation or just non existent. Very disappointing. Hopefully they get the message. It would be nice to have an alternative available.

I can hear Pete crowing all the way from Seattle!
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Spectrum stone.jpg (61.7 KB, 126 views)
File Type: jpg Spectrum seconds.jpg (84.2 KB, 108 views)
__________________
WWUD? Think for yourself.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 04-14-2015, 03:59 PM
Pete VanderLaan's Avatar
Pete VanderLaan Pete VanderLaan is offline
The Old Gaffer
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Chocorua New Hampshire
Posts: 19,249
Pete VanderLaan is on a distinguished road
I'm not crowing, I think it's really scary to be dependent on cullet. Studio history has taught me that cullet is a transitory kind of material that disappears. We started with this stuff called Keystone cullet and it was .02 lb. Worked great. We all told each other about our great find and everyone started to order it. Keystone had never seen so many sales and "Hey, clear is clear" and they threw every kind of clear glass they could find in the barrels. It was just pure junk and Keystone was quietly abandoned in less than two years.

Then came Gabbert, a seemingly endless supply of factory drops. As the shops in West Virginia failed, ultimately so has the gabbert connection. Gone is Louis cullet, Fenton, gone. This will not stop in this country with the exception of bottle glass coming out of Northwest or Anchor Hocking in New Jersey and it isn't workable with the color rods.

So, the complaint is that Spruce Pine batch is unpleasant. Cullet is so easy until of course you get victimized like Jordan did. If the AZS is starting to come out of the furnace, it's unlikely to stop. Spruce Pine has had a nightmare experience with their continuous melter. Bottom line is that everyone is depending on these sources and that is a very dangerous thing to do. While SP87 batch may not be as easy as dumping bags of cullet in the tank, the truth is it will always be better glass and is always available. Every time a glass gets melted, it gets shorter. There is nothing quite like a fresh batch if you're fussy- and you should be. I've been revising mine again, pushing the potassium content up, the soda down and getting pure alumina in while abandoning feldspar entirely. The glass is just stunning the color just gets better and better and it's coming out of a three year old High Temp pot.

The cautionary tale here is that you should insure yourselves by learning how to make glass from raw materials or to always have SP87 as a batch on hand. If you think that you can always rely on cullet companies, experience tells me you're really wrong.
__________________
Where are we going and why am I in this basket?
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 04-14-2015, 04:25 PM
Art Freas Art Freas is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Washington
Posts: 432
Art Freas is on a distinguished road
Jordan, sent you a PM.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 04-14-2015, 04:27 PM
Pete VanderLaan's Avatar
Pete VanderLaan Pete VanderLaan is offline
The Old Gaffer
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Chocorua New Hampshire
Posts: 19,249
Pete VanderLaan is on a distinguished road
but the fact that no one noticed at Spectrum is kind of interesting.
__________________
Where are we going and why am I in this basket?
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 04-14-2015, 05:08 PM
Edward Skeels Edward Skeels is offline
Hotshop Warlord
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: St Louis
Posts: 270
Edward Skeels is on a distinguished road
Had stones in spectrum 96 but couldn't tell where they came from. Thought it was the crown. Good tip for looking at the nuggets in water.
Did find a hex head machine bolt once In a sack. Real confidence builder. Glad that's behind me.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 04-14-2015, 05:26 PM
Pete VanderLaan's Avatar
Pete VanderLaan Pete VanderLaan is offline
The Old Gaffer
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Chocorua New Hampshire
Posts: 19,249
Pete VanderLaan is on a distinguished road
I do recall the mixer at SP disintegrating a long time ago. Kind of like crackerJacks with a surprise in every bag.
__________________
Where are we going and why am I in this basket?
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 04-14-2015, 07:19 PM
Jordan Kube Jordan Kube is offline
?
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 1,488
Jordan Kube is on a distinguished road
You just gotta look through the bags. Not as terrible as it sounds once you get a system down. If you don't find stuff in the first 50 nuggets you probably won't find them in the rest. Spectrum does have a tolerance for inclusions and we were 150% over.
__________________
WWUD? Think for yourself.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 04-14-2015, 07:48 PM
Pete VanderLaan's Avatar
Pete VanderLaan Pete VanderLaan is offline
The Old Gaffer
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Chocorua New Hampshire
Posts: 19,249
Pete VanderLaan is on a distinguished road
well, you are making pretty tiny things if it's the votif things. If you were at four or five gathers, I'd imagine a stone in every piece based on what I think I understand you to be saying. I think it would be completely unacceptable.
__________________
Where are we going and why am I in this basket?
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 04-14-2015, 08:05 PM
Peter Bowles Peter Bowles is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Breadalbane, Tasmania
Posts: 597
Peter Bowles is on a distinguished road
We had the same about five years ago. We ordered about 5 tonnes of the 96 nuggets specifically for an architectural project we were working on. The stuff was absolutely riddled with stone. Some of it sharp and very white and quite small (around 1mm), most of it was grey and 2-3-4 mm and sometimes 5-6 mm across. Also all sorts of iron streaks and undissolved silica through some of it.

Absolutely riddled with the stuff - very shoddy indeed.

Saw the same at ACAD a couple of years ago too, though not to the extent we had it in our shipment.

Spectrum didn't seem to care and I get the feeling they were just happy to unload what must have been known as a second rate material to an overseas customer.

Pretty shoddy really.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 04-14-2015, 10:54 PM
Greg Vriethoff's Avatar
Greg Vriethoff Greg Vriethoff is offline
Part of the Problem
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 1,850
Greg Vriethoff is on a distinguished road
About four years ago I was working with a company to get a new product developed. It took weeks to nail-down clean product that met community standards. Feedback from first round users was generally positive. Then either by accident, or in order to meet the growing demand, a batch got out that should not have. Backlash was severe enough to essentially kill the campaign.

Spectrum is in the catbird seat right now in terms of boutique cullet. With SP on indefinite hiatus, I assume their demand is greater. That's a double-edged sword in my opinion.

Glad I'm not involved with any of it anymore.
__________________
"It's such a fine line between stupid and clever." - David St. Hubbins
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 04-15-2015, 06:46 AM
Pete VanderLaan's Avatar
Pete VanderLaan Pete VanderLaan is offline
The Old Gaffer
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Chocorua New Hampshire
Posts: 19,249
Pete VanderLaan is on a distinguished road
I would be real interested in whether they are batch or furnace stones at this point. Furnace stones don't have to be smooth but batch stones should be correctable if there's the remotest QC.

This seems to fit in with the attitude taken regarding incompatibility of the clears with each other. Doesn't seem like a particularly ethical bunch people are flocking to. SP87 keeps sounding better to me all the time. This sounds a whole lot like my caution about cullet supplies. I simply forgot to include Seattle Batch in that process. Given the number of times I get pieces returned for the slightest inclusions, I'm really surprised that this hasn't been more of a public issue.

There is an opportunity out there for someone who really wants to ruin their life completely
__________________
Where are we going and why am I in this basket?
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 04-15-2015, 09:03 AM
Glenn Randle's Avatar
Glenn Randle Glenn Randle is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Boone,NC
Posts: 982
Glenn Randle is on a distinguished road
DIY Cullet ?

I know a lot of studios use cullet because they have wire melters and can't get hot enough to melt batch.

Most of the other studios like it because they can charge quicker, because it melts (or remelts) and fines out quicker than batch.

I melt batch and like it, but of course I melt the cullet when I'm restarting my furnace after it's been shut down. I've also tested a bag the SP bowties that they gave me to try. Cullet is great for topping off the pot mid-week and it blows fine for the thick work I make.

Since it's not readily available I wonder about making my own cullet for remelting when I'm in a bit of a time crunch. Since I make large work I always have to charge when the pot is about 1/2 full, since the last gather hits the bottom of the pot. I'm thinking if I emptied the pot, making cullet, the batch charge will obviously take a bit longer, but the glass quality will improve since it's 100% batch. Then I can use it to top off the pot, say Tuesday after blowing and have a full pot again Wednesday morning.
Is this a practical thing to do? It seems like it might add some scheduling flexibility.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 04-15-2015, 01:49 PM
David Patchen's Avatar
David Patchen David Patchen is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 1,806
David Patchen is on a distinguished road
Note to self: never use any Spectrum products. That kind of sub-par quality control is shameless.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 04-15-2015, 04:16 PM
Greg Vriethoff's Avatar
Greg Vriethoff Greg Vriethoff is offline
Part of the Problem
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 1,850
Greg Vriethoff is on a distinguished road
You'll have to give up System 96, David.
__________________
"It's such a fine line between stupid and clever." - David St. Hubbins
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 04-15-2015, 04:47 PM
Pete VanderLaan's Avatar
Pete VanderLaan Pete VanderLaan is offline
The Old Gaffer
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Chocorua New Hampshire
Posts: 19,249
Pete VanderLaan is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn Randle View Post
I know a lot of studios use cullet because they have wire melters and can't get hot enough to melt batch.
*******
Perfect, first build inadequate furnaces that are really underinsulated ceramic kilns that were never designed for continuous operation and then, since it can't melt quality products because it's under-engineered, then supply cullet with stones in it.

Studio glass sometimes seems involved in one big major fail.
__________________
Where are we going and why am I in this basket?
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 04-15-2015, 05:24 PM
David Patchen's Avatar
David Patchen David Patchen is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 1,806
David Patchen is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Vriethoff View Post
You'll have to give up System 96, David.
I use the stuff made by Uroboros, not Spectrum.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 04-15-2015, 05:59 PM
Pete VanderLaan's Avatar
Pete VanderLaan Pete VanderLaan is offline
The Old Gaffer
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Chocorua New Hampshire
Posts: 19,249
Pete VanderLaan is on a distinguished road
I'd be a bit surprised if that really turns out to be accurate David. Those two companies are partners in system 96. Uroboros tends to make sheet glass at 96 but it's all one big ball of wax.
__________________
Where are we going and why am I in this basket?
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 04-15-2015, 06:30 PM
Jordan Kube Jordan Kube is offline
?
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 1,488
Jordan Kube is on a distinguished road
Uroboros is awesome.

To be fair, I've never had any problems with any other Spectrum products. They make an excellent inexpensive casting glass and their colored sheet glass is great.

Also, Phil got this resolved for us very quickly.
__________________
WWUD? Think for yourself.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 04-15-2015, 06:31 PM
Jordan Kube Jordan Kube is offline
?
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 1,488
Jordan Kube is on a distinguished road
All of the rod material is made at Uroboros.
__________________
WWUD? Think for yourself.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 04-15-2015, 07:33 PM
Pete VanderLaan's Avatar
Pete VanderLaan Pete VanderLaan is offline
The Old Gaffer
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Chocorua New Hampshire
Posts: 19,249
Pete VanderLaan is on a distinguished road
It may well have been resolved but it's also a continuing saga. Not good. Once is fine. Twice is not so fine. more...? If the clear from one supplier is too often junk, and the other half fine, it's still kind of junky and rather unpredictable which is also not good.
While it may be the case that one side supplies the color and the other the clear and everything matches and we go off down the garden path, It's not so good when one half supplies a QC lacking product. That hurts Uroboros ultimately. I suspect that they can't supply clear in the volume necessary to operate independently of Spectrum.

Every cullet supplier before this had the same history.
__________________
Where are we going and why am I in this basket?
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 04-15-2015, 10:45 PM
Tom Fuhrman Tom Fuhrman is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: hills of Tennessee
Posts: 1,285
Tom Fuhrman is on a distinguished road
Has any cullet producer ever supplied good glass in large quantities consistently? I don't think so. no one will pay the price for what's involved. Making 100,000's of lb. of this stuff per month to make a few cents per lb. is not a good business model to make a decent profit and a good product. There's a reason Bullseye gets well over $5/lb. for their products and Schott gets more like $8-12/lb. as Pete has always said, it's expensive to make good glass. In addition, quality control doesn't come cheap. All the big guys have learned this the hard way. Most of the large glass companies in this country are now history. i.e. Lancaster, Anchor, Fenton, Smith, St. George Crystal, Jeanette, Colony, Steuben,. do I need to go on?
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 04-16-2015, 06:16 AM
Dave Bross Dave Bross is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Archer FL(near Gainesville)
Posts: 2,883
Dave Bross is on a distinguished road
If you're batching your own you can make batch that goes down like a charm in a wire melter. The magic word is Lithium, and SP has quite a large percentage of it in there.

Cullet is like all your other pleasurable vices...so easy...feels so good...until.....
__________________
Art is not a thing...it's a way.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 04-16-2015, 06:46 AM
Pete VanderLaan's Avatar
Pete VanderLaan Pete VanderLaan is offline
The Old Gaffer
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Chocorua New Hampshire
Posts: 19,249
Pete VanderLaan is on a distinguished road
It's not large at .5%. When it was first being tested decades go, it had more but was too corrosive. It was then cut and has been parked at .5% for years unless Tom has changed it.

You could indeed make a batch with lithium that would melt easily in a wire unit but it will attack the furnace as well as the pot. Also, Lithium is expensive stuff.
__________________
Where are we going and why am I in this basket?
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 04-16-2015, 06:55 AM
Pete VanderLaan's Avatar
Pete VanderLaan Pete VanderLaan is offline
The Old Gaffer
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Chocorua New Hampshire
Posts: 19,249
Pete VanderLaan is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Fuhrman View Post
Has any cullet producer ever supplied good glass in large quantities consistently? I don't think so. no one will pay the price for what's involved. Making 100,000's of lb. of this stuff per month to make a few cents per lb. is not a good business model to make a decent profit and a good product. There's a reason Bullseye gets well over $5/lb. for their products and Schott gets more like $8-12/lb. as Pete has always said, it's expensive to make good glass. In addition, quality control doesn't come cheap. All the big guys have learned this the hard way. Most of the large glass companies in this country are now history. i.e. Lancaster, Anchor, Fenton, Smith, St. George Crystal, Jeanette, Colony, Steuben,. do I need to go on?
*********
As Harvey once said to me : You can make it a secondary product but you can't make it a primary product.

The product has to have enough of a profitability to make quality control justifiable which is what sank Seattle batch cullet, ( among other things). The troubles always start when there's no time to make that a priority. Raw materials change with mine runs. Moisture is always a problem and expensive furnace liners wear out while fuel costs rise. I have not seen anyone yet who relied on cullet that did not ultimately hit a wall. While I don't think it's at a crisis level yet, I think it will come to be a major supply interruption for people that rely on it. A backup plan is a really good idea. Right now, cullet is supplied from a sole source in the trade and that's really bad. The price could be jacked to $1.50- 2.00 lb and there's nothing anyone could do about it without an alternative that currently doesn't exist.
__________________
Where are we going and why am I in this basket?
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 05-01-2015, 06:14 PM
Pringle Teetor's Avatar
Pringle Teetor Pringle Teetor is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Chapel Hill, NC
Posts: 608
Pringle Teetor is on a distinguished road
after my last post about sp cullet we went ahead and ordered a new batch of Sys 96. Glass still looks like crap. Lots of random bubbles here and there. Last saturday we scraped the pot and I went through 2 bags piece by piece. found a lot of stuff that looked like this
Attached Images
File Type: jpg cullet crud 2.jpg (19.5 KB, 75 views)
File Type: jpg cullet crud 3.jpg (37.5 KB, 73 views)
File Type: jpg cullet crud 4.jpg (26.0 KB, 66 views)
File Type: jpg cullet crud 6.jpg (24.5 KB, 64 views)
File Type: jpg cullet crud 5.jpg (22.2 KB, 64 views)
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:30 AM.


All published comments within these message boards are the opinions of its contributor and does not represent
the opinion(s) of the owner(s) of this website. Please see the Terms of Use file for more details.

Books to Help Artists Avoid Online Scams: Top 10 Email Scams | Social Media Scams

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
CraftWEB.com. Opportunity Network. 2008. All Rights Reserved.