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Old 08-08-2017, 06:40 PM
Jordan Kube Jordan Kube is offline
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Electrical consumption

We're moving forward with our test furnace this week and I was reminded of the discussion of electrical usage a few threads back. You can get panel mount power meters super cheap on ebay. We'll be installing this one in our furnace panel. It will give us real time feedback on how our elements are doing as well as power consumption. No logging or anything but several readings jotted down in a notebook fix that. This can easily be added to any annealer or furnace.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/100A-AC-LCD-...r/322626251249
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Old 08-09-2017, 02:51 AM
David Hopman David Hopman is offline
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I don't know about elsewhere in the country, but here PG&E allows you to access your consumption online- and the data ranges from 15 minute to monthly intervals. I can go in and see when the compressor kicked on.
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Old 08-09-2017, 07:22 AM
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Franklin Sankar Franklin Sankar is offline
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That is a super good price Jordan. I was trying to get a ct with jaws so you can easily move it without disconnection. Just have to remember the voltage on the ct output very high. Do you get the CT with yours?
Franklin
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Old 08-09-2017, 08:31 AM
Steve Stadelman Steve Stadelman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Hopman View Post
I don't know about elsewhere in the country, but here PG&E allows you to access your consumption online- and the data ranges from 15 minute to monthly intervals. I can go in and see when the compressor kicked on.
And that's a useful tool, but in a test environment I always wanted to see what my furnaces did all by themselves.
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Old 08-09-2017, 09:54 AM
Brian Mazrim Brian Mazrim is offline
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Maybe I missed it in a previous thread, but what's the new furnace being tested?
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Old 08-09-2017, 11:33 AM
Jordan Kube Jordan Kube is offline
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I'm essentially lowering the Denver furnace upper casting down around a freestanding pot. I've actually been thinking of you, Brian, as a test candidate for a 100# version. We could do a crown rebuild as well. It would be bit off in the future for me but it's in my mind.

This one fits the #38 pound pot from Pete. Something like 6000 watts in that little space. The elements have a watt loading of 12 or 13 watts per square inch of surface area and they're beefy thick. When I want to see how something works I build it and find out. Pretty simple design. No sacred geometry and definitely no free lunch.
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Old 08-09-2017, 12:34 PM
Brian Mazrim Brian Mazrim is offline
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Nice! And please do keep me in mind. For now, though, everything has been running great and I don't see any urgent need for a rebuild (if I may foolishly tempt fate).
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Old 08-09-2017, 12:55 PM
Steve Stadelman Steve Stadelman is offline
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If I was involved I would definitely use the blasphemous geometry and have egg salad for lunch.............
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Old 08-09-2017, 01:11 PM
Dan Vanantwerp Dan Vanantwerp is offline
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Hmmm....I've always considered the circle pretty sacred...geometrically speaking.

Brought to you by the letter: O
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Old 08-09-2017, 05:51 PM
Jordan Kube Jordan Kube is offline
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Moving quick

My guys finished packing it today. It's almost over insulated from a practical stand point. It's ok but any wider and it would be too far to comfortably reach to gather. The wood lid will help keep the heat from escaping out the top.
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Old 08-09-2017, 06:31 PM
Dan Vanantwerp Dan Vanantwerp is offline
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My wood lids keep disappearing...
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Old 08-09-2017, 06:58 PM
Jordan Kube Jordan Kube is offline
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Check your connections. If they're loose sometimes the lids will burn up.
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Old 08-09-2017, 07:14 PM
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That's essentially, the funniest crap I've heard all day. "Sacred Geometry"

Lots of times, I just say "**** it"
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Old 08-09-2017, 09:23 PM
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Wood lid. Egg salad?
Ok
Franklin
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Old 08-09-2017, 11:43 PM
George Vidas George Vidas is offline
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Looks great, Jordan. I like how few seams you have in this design -- lots of nested cylinders. Over here in my armchair, peering at a hazy JPG, I wonder if there is enough space between the coils of your elements. I can imagine them slumping onto each other, shorting out a bit, raising your effective watt-load, and setting off the cascade of bullshit. I also wonder how you pin elements into castable.

Franklin, I think the "egg salad" bit is a joke about taking your chances with food poisoning, building on the "no free lunches" bit. And the "wooden lid" was a quip about the photo Jordan posted.
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Old 08-09-2017, 11:45 PM
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My first thought when I heard "sacred geometry" was "squaring the circle."
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Old 08-10-2017, 07:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jordan Kube View Post
I'm essentially lowering the Denver furnace upper casting down around a freestanding pot. I've actually been thinking of you, Brian, as a test candidate for a 100# version. We could do a crown rebuild as well. It would be bit off in the future for me but it's in my mind.

This one fits the #38 pound pot from Pete. Something like 6000 watts in that little space. The elements have a watt loading of 12 or 13 watts per square inch of surface area and they're beefy thick. When I want to see how something works I build it and find out. Pretty simple design. No sacred geometry and definitely no free lunch.
*********
Joe clearman had a very small color furnace that was entirely fiber with elements pinned to the walls. It ran on 115V and was about double the size of a lunchbox. He would take it to workshops and just plug it in and have it by his bench. He had hot color thorough the day. Incredibly simple. He could eat his lunch right next to it.
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Old 08-10-2017, 11:24 AM
Jordan Kube Jordan Kube is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by George Vidas View Post
Looks great, Jordan. I like how few seams you have in this design -- lots of nested cylinders. Over here in my armchair, peering at a hazy JPG, I wonder if there is enough space between the coils of your elements. I can imagine them slumping onto each other, shorting out a bit, raising your effective watt-load, and setting off the cascade of bullshit. I also wonder how you pin elements into castable.
George, the whole thing is essentially a Denver furnace lowered around a freestanding pot. The elements are stretched to their specs and held in place with little dabs of mortar as they do. I have found Denver furnaces to be no better or worse than any other wire melter, and I'm always in search of practical, simple solutions. I am also an empiricist and all they questions you have are my questions as well. Build it and see what happens. I'm expecting to get some pretty nice glass out of this little thing.
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Old 08-10-2017, 10:06 PM
Cecil McKenzie Cecil McKenzie is offline
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Jordan . Is there a drain in your design? In my mind I have a patented design to make a furnace that sits on something like a shower drain where the slope of the floor goes to the middle of the bottom of the floor. There is a ridge around the drain that is just a little lower than the outside edges of the floor. This floor sits on a pot of the same size as the pot with glass. Preferably an old pot is available. The lower pot sits in fiber insulation and is filled with same. When the pot in use breaks the glass flows into the lower pot. A thermocouple can be installed at the bottom of the lower pot to alert user to cracked pots that you don't notice right away. A door is installed to remove the lower pot if a spill occurs. The upper pot is then put on the bottom and a new pot is installed on top.

I hope this is clear enough .

What kind of door are you using?
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Old 08-10-2017, 10:42 PM
Steve Stadelman Steve Stadelman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cecil McKenzie View Post
Jordan . Is there a drain in your design? In my mind I have a patented design to make a furnace that sits on something like a shower drain where the slope of the floor goes to the middle of the bottom of the floor. There is a ridge around the drain that is just a little lower than the outside edges of the floor. This floor sits on a pot of the same size as the pot with glass. Preferably an old pot is available. The lower pot sits in fiber insulation and is filled with same. When the pot in use breaks the glass flows into the lower pot. A thermocouple can be installed at the bottom of the lower pot to alert user to cracked pots that you don't notice right away. A door is installed to remove the lower pot if a spill occurs. The upper pot is then put on the bottom and a new pot is installed on top.

I hope this is clear enough .

What kind of door are you using?
Well there goes your patent.....
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Old 08-11-2017, 08:01 AM
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Well there goes your patent.....
********
But it alludes to the sacred Geometry and the sacred gravity but doesn't blurt it out. Call the lawyers.
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Old 08-11-2017, 09:06 AM
Cecil McKenzie Cecil McKenzie is offline
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Reference to a patent was tongue in check so I am not worried about a patent being lost or not valid. Thanks for the heads up Steve. i am 68 and have used the same owner built furnace for 30 years so I doubt if I will try to incorporate this idea. Besides many who are inclined to build their own tools reverse engineer with frequency.

i do think it is an idea that could have potential especially to the wire furnace users. If a furnace is designed to withstand failure with ease it could reduce problems like the jelly roll which occurs at the bottom of the outside insulation where it is difficult to see much less eliminate and repair. Also the risk to elements would be reduced because glass would not rise inside the interior of the furnace and get on the elements.

This idea would be better for smaller size furnaces where putting a pot below a pot would not raise the level of the pot in use too high.

It might also make it feasible to use fiber with z wash on the interior surface because it would not get glass contact if care was taken.
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Old 08-11-2017, 09:12 AM
Victor Chiarizia Victor Chiarizia is online now
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does anyone make a circular silicon carbide element that could be used instead of wire elements? vic
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Old 08-11-2017, 11:16 AM
John Riepma John Riepma is online now
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A while back Michael referred to the Euro style elements that they use for annealers instead of coiled wire. Something about bendable until fired and with threaded ends for electrical connections. Is there a link or other source for those, and can they withstand furnace temperatures or just annealer temperatures?
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Old 08-11-2017, 12:35 PM
Jordan Kube Jordan Kube is offline
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Cecil, I have found drains to be good for larger furnaces. Smaller furnaces, not so much. Glory holes, not so much. Heat loss through the walls is directly related to interior surface area. Keep things small and tight, keep things hot. Build in a reasonable space to catch spills and cracks and off you go. Especially with a design like this where the top is meant to come off easily. Designs with extra thermocouples, etc are overthinking and overbuilding in my opinion. Replace the crucible at reasonable intervals, watch for leaks.

I am using a wooden door.
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