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  #51  
Old 11-19-2003, 03:52 PM
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I have seen those deposits on the furnaces all the time and it's impossible to make the glass without the deposits. My impression is that there should not be anything coming off of the glass that would cause that on the gloryhole aside from migrant dust from the batching as you suggest. That would in my estimation be a lot of migrant dust. I don't get that on my gloryhole when I melt leads but I do have it on the furnaces.
Lead is also a drag because it doesn't leave any symptoms and I don't think it would cause headaches. As they say irt's a silent killer and all it does is to make you stupid- and I'm not trying to make a joke. I think your torch is one possibility, but only one. I'd still bring in a CO detector if you can get one. Lead shouldn't cause headaches,(again) I don't think.
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Old 11-20-2003, 10:15 AM
Tom Littleton Tom Littleton is offline
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By the way, lead cullet is a hazardous waste and has special (as in EPA mandated) disposal requirements. Lenoux used to pay $600.00 a ton to send their cullet to a recyler that processed it to remove the lead. There is a way to melt electrically that causes the lead to return to it's elemental form. (I don't exactly how it works, just that it does)
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  #53  
Old 11-20-2003, 10:02 PM
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Ok Pete, The torch is fixed and I have had no headache since. Of course this don't meen nothing right now cuz it's gone away for days and then returned. The deposits on the gloryhole are quite substantle and I checked the rest of them all 13 and they all have it as did our old glorys. I'll try to sneek a camera in and get a photo to show you. And as far as the lead cullet disposal is concerned, We have hoppers full of it sitting around. A truck comes in once a week and picks it up. I heard some guy uses it for something. They give it to him. When I asked about getting a half ton the answer was "Sure" There's no restrictions on cullet lead or no lead. At least not in NYS.
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  #54  
Old 11-21-2003, 06:31 AM
Rosanna Gusler Rosanna Gusler is offline
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jay, i googled CO poisoning symptoms and the stuff about chronic long term exposure is really scary. there are blood tests that will detect exposure. i was getting it from my truck. oh well after 14 years and lots of salt water, what do i ecpect? rosanna ( the chronic worrier)
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  #55  
Old 11-21-2003, 08:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Pete VanderLaan
The third formula is simply wrong.
Pete, are you referring to this formula:

50 sand
20 1/4 soda ash
9 1/16 hydrated lime type N
5 1/4 Potassium carb
3 3/16th Borax 5 mole


I'd like to be clear on this because I'm taking notes and rubbing my hands together in planning for the future. Muahahah.

While we're at it ...

Quote:
Originally posted by Pete VanderLaan
The first formula does have a ton of silica and it is durable and the silica content is why the glass works well in a torch. It was a glass I used that I cut and polished a lot and it polishes beautifully. That is because of the potash.
Is that in reference to this:

100 Sand
28 Soda Ash
14 Lime Hydrate
12 Potassium Carbonate
200 grams potassium nitrate
100 grams antimony oxide


And finally ...

Quote:
Originally posted by Pete VanderLaan
The second formula is a glass designed to fit SP87 hand in glove. I use it for my red and opal silver amber formulations when matching SP87. It also makes a very nice turquoise blue I am currently working.
Is that in reference to this:

63.25 silica
20.25 soda ash
9.06 Hydrated lime type N
2.18 Borax 5 mole
5.25 Potassium carb
100 grams antimony oxide
130 grams potassium nitrate


Just want to be sure. Thanks.
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  #56  
Old 11-21-2003, 10:59 AM
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The 63.25 lb sand is correct. The formulas showing 1/16ths convert every 16th to .06. Note that the other portions of the formula are identical.
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  #57  
Old 11-21-2003, 11:27 AM
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Thank you. It's nice to get things in perspective when lots of information is heavily concentrated in one place.

So then for the formulas listed, I figured that (excuse the lack of rounding) the following would work well with your EC #5396 pot, around which I hope to eventually build an electric melter:

60.0875 lb. silica
19.2375 lb. soda ash
8.607 lb. hydrated lime type N
2.071 lb. borax 5 mole
4.9875 lb. potassium carbonate
95 g antimony oxide
123.5 g potassium nitrate

TOTAL: 95.47221 lb.

Is this correct? I figured it at 5% of the original formula.
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  #58  
Old 11-23-2003, 08:31 PM
Dave Bross Dave Bross is offline
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On melt #8 now. Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!

Well, well, well, it really does do a lot better when you screen the materials. Duh!

Actually melts a bit faster and less dark snots while melting to worry over the eventual fate of.

I'm experimenting on this one. I left out the antimony since it's the only nasty thing in that batch. Oh, and by the way, look up antimony poisoning and you'll maybe want to avoid it when/if possible too. I figure I'll deal with the ugly stuff to get color but a non-toxic clear seemed like a very nice thing. Depends on how troublesome the squeeze is.

So, I know I'm going to fine OK, because I've still got the potassium nitrate, but, since I'm lacking the antimony, any advice on the squeezing? Since I'm sure Pete has already been through this with this batch while making unoxidised color I thought I would ask and maybe save some trial and error time. I'm guessing a few trips up and down in temp. will be in order but that's just a guess.

I'm doing c-balls so if I can't get it to squeeze nicely it's really not the end of the world.

Note for Jay,

The feds should scare you WAY more than the state when it comes to toxic liability. BIG fines and possible jail time.
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  #59  
Old 11-24-2003, 11:35 AM
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I reviewed the MSDS on antimony oxide. It's not fun stuff, and I'd like to avoid using it when it comes time to making my own batch. If you read the MSDS for silica, it's equally as ugly. Look up silicosis and other serious health issues that can arise from exposure. Basically, all these components require care in handling and use, but some are just plain nasty.

In any case, it is very cool and inspiring to watch your progress, Dave. Thanks for making your efforts public. Also, got any pictures you could post of all this?
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  #60  
Old 11-24-2003, 11:51 AM
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Gloves, respirators and good ventilation are a must in doing this. If you can't handle those things, don't do it. If you can, making your own glass is incredibly rewarding.

Everthing in the world is dangerous and respect is a good plan. I think what Dave is doing is fantastic.

A glass without a multi valent reducer will not squeeze well. The role is the nitrate creates the sweeping gasses and at high temps the antimony is mono valent. When the temp is dropped, the antimony reverts to a multi valent state and begins to absorb the gasses in the melt back into solution. That is what you are seeing when the bubbles begin to shrink. If you in turn over heat the glass, the valence goes back to a monovalent state and all those gasses are thrown back into the melt.That is called re boil.

Bottom line, squeezing without antimony is slow and expensive. It is necessary in unoxidized formulas using copper and silver. A little fluorspar helps change the viscosity of the glass and shortens the time up. I use the antimony. It's not going to hurt you unless you stick it in your mouth.
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  #61  
Old 11-24-2003, 12:02 PM
Dave Bross Dave Bross is offline
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You can bet yo' ass I'm using the gloves and respirator. I'll be keeping my silica snots in the pots, not my lungs, thank you.

Even if my no antimony version is OK I'll keep using the gloves to develop the habit for when it gets to be color play time.

I'm still only doing 15 pounds at a time so I can keep the dusting down to very minimal levels. If I was doing hundred pound lots I would go for the tyvek suit and ventilation.

I just did surgery on my digital camera, and the patient actually survived, so I'll get some pics.
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  #62  
Old 11-24-2003, 12:26 PM
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Ben, you are going to have volition loss in the batch. Don't complicate your life by messing with the formula weights and percentages. If you mix too much, store it til next time.

Also, you need to consider the law of significant figures. Don't carry anything past two decimal points and do round off. While you should use a very accurate scale, you are not likely to get one that has meaningful accuracy while being capable of weighing both pounds and thousandths and tenths of thousandths of pounds. I do use two scales to check against each other. I never go beyond hundredths and I don't get really sweaty about them. Larger batches are easier than small ones since the percent margins of error become less significant. Some time ago I told Dave to never mix under 20 lb batches. Sometime soon he will see why I said that.
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  #63  
Old 11-24-2003, 12:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Pete VanderLaan
Gloves, respirators and good ventilation are a must in doing this. If you can't handle those things, don't do it. If you can, making your own glass is incredibly rewarding.

Everthing in the world is dangerous and respect is a good plan. I think what Dave is doing is fantastic.
I agree. I just think it's important to share some of the potentials for problems. I will use whatever is necessary to maintain quality, so if that means antimony oxide, then that's what it means. I'm used to using good ventilation when blowing borosilicate colors, so adding the protective gear is not that much of a step up.

Hell, I think I'm safer taking a glassblowing lesson than I am driving to work!

And yeah, Dave is definitely doing some cool stuff. Pics, Dave!
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  #64  
Old 11-24-2003, 12:40 PM
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I think the lampworkers are doing the most dangerous stuff with color I have seen in years. I keep seeing work rolled in chrome, which is very gassey and is a known carcinogen. Most other metals are dangerous in a flame as well. This is seriously dangerous stuff.
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  #65  
Old 11-24-2003, 12:43 PM
Dave Bross Dave Bross is offline
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Well, If I had to guess why no less than 20 I think I will get caught when it comes to color?

Seems some of the really intense colorants like cobalt will be tough to meter out in small enough doses and the distribution in the batch could be an issue?

Which reminds me....anyone know where to get powder blue in small quantities?
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  #66  
Old 11-24-2003, 12:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Pete VanderLaan
Ben, you are going to have volition loss in the batch. Don't complicate your life by messing with the formula weights and percentages. If you mix too much, store it til next time.
I smell what you're stepping in. However, if I use the formula as originally posted and only need, say half of it, how can I be sure that the portion I'm working with is homogenous? I know that sounds silly, and I bet the answer to that is in print, but I'm waiting to read my recently purchased copy of Glass Notes until I get really bored at the in-laws' house during Thanksgiving -- which should take about two hours or so after dinner.

Oh and because it seems some of these chemicals for batch are hygroscopic, let me contribute a link (I'm unaffiliated, mind you) that might help keep your stored materials dry: www.dehumidify.com. You can protect up to 66 cubic feet of enclosed space with their biggest product. And each unit can be reactivated.

Glad to hear that pics are on the way, Dave. Servin' up the virgins.
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  #67  
Old 11-24-2003, 01:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Pete VanderLaan
I think the lampworkers are doing the most dangerous stuff with color I have seen in years. I keep seeing work rolled in chrome, which is very gassey and is a known carcinogen. Most other metals are dangerous in a flame as well. This is seriously dangerous stuff.
Rolling in chrome is a new one on me, but I'm sure you've seen a broader range of glass work. A lot of the opaques that are rich and dense are based in cadmium and chromium, reduce in a heartbeat, and are toxic as all hell. Any responsible flameworker will have a localized exhust above or above/in front of the range of the torch's flame. Also, the fuming process with silver and gold is nasty. Luckily, my instructor keeps a very safe shop.
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  #68  
Old 11-24-2003, 02:18 PM
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If you don't think your batch is homogenous, you aren't mixing it well and you should never try to melt it in the first place.. The old adage is "Well mixed is half melted" Trust me on this one.

What I meant by volition loss is that about 20 percent of a batch goes up the flue in the form of carbon dioxide. 100 lbs of batch usually makes about 80 lbs of glass. It varies based on the formula.

As to the chemicals rolled in pieces. Lampworkers and fusers keep doing this stuff and it is serious crap that really should not be done. Inevitably they get their noses right into it. Copper can poison you just as well as the big nasty metals. It's just a question of overkill, a great term.
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Old 11-24-2003, 03:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Pete VanderLaan
If you don't think your batch is homogenous, you aren't mixing it well and you should never try to melt it in the first place.. The old adage is "Well mixed is half melted" Trust me on this one.
I do.

I appreciate your input. Thanks a lot for the replies.
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Old 11-24-2003, 04:50 PM
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Note for Jay,

The feds should scare you WAY more than the state when it comes to toxic liability. BIG fines and possible jail time. [/b][/quote]

I've decided to melt CBG from Seattle Batch. They have a distributer in NJ. I can drive down with the truck and pick it up and save on shipping. I'm going down to Wheaton Village this spring I'll pick it up while I'm down there.
Thanks for the concern and the advice.
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  #71  
Old 11-24-2003, 05:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dave Bross


Which reminds me....anyone know where to get powder blue in small quantities? [/b]
Make your powder blue. Take 10 grams of cobalt and put it in 90 grams of your mixed batch and stir well. Then when you want a one gram cobalt glass take ten grams of the powder blue instead. Or, mix it the way you like it.
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  #72  
Old 11-25-2003, 10:45 AM
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Thanks for the powder blue trick Pete!!!!!!

I always prefer homemade to store bought.

The simplest things are often the most elegant....and so difficult to spot for the uninitiated. It does take serious experience to get to the essence of things.

And, of course, I'm just finishing my third trip up and down in temp from 2200 to 1800F with the no antimony batch and there are STILL a few seeds in there. I think one more cycle would get it but it's for c-balls so it's going to get used as it is..... Lesson learned.....

No more no antimony batches unless I absolutely have to for reduction colors. This stuff WITH antimony will squeeze in 4-5 hours by just turning it down from melt temp. at 2200 to 1800F and then back to work temp. at 2050F. That's just too easy to do without.

I'm amazed the reduction colors don't cost more than they do, considering the time and energy useage required to squeeze the seeds. I've got a whole new respect for them now.

More Pete questions...

You mentioned some silver colors as being in the unoxidised category. which ones?

Could you use sodium flouride to lower the glass viscosity, assuming you compensated for the sodium it was adding? Just thinking along the no spars line, or does the fluorspar make for easier calculations/less error possibility at the scale?

How much flourine do you want for this? I know there are unoxidised color melts in my future. I'm just a big ol' sucker for a really good ruby.

I'm assuming if we're melting without antimony due to reduction requirements, and we're going to lower the viscosity with fluorine, that the seeds have to float to the top as opposed to going into solution as with the antimony? Or, if we're still going up and down in temp., then some of the seeds do go into solution?

Jay,

Good decision!

I get to Corning every now and then...we'll visit ...and remind me to tell you some of the enviro enforcement horror stories.

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Last edited by Dave Bross; 11-25-2003 at 10:48 AM.
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  #73  
Old 11-25-2003, 12:11 PM
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the rules change in squeezing small pots. They don't squeeze well, I can tell you that. You have a dual problem of melting an antimony and nitrate free batch and melting it too cold. 2250 is too cold for a copper ruby. I melt them in the 2300's overnight, so thats like 12 hours at 2325. That fines out. I don't like using sodium fluoride because I don't like extra sodium coming from anywhere. Fluorspar is cheap and you can get it at your local pottery. 50 grams in 15 lbs is plenty. Good luck, you are going to need it. Ruby in a wire melter is an exercise in hematic livery reds anyway. They really want good old gas reduction. I don't know why the silver opals work as well as they do in electric. Silver transparants are hard. You can add the antimony to the melt but it doesn't function well without the nitrates andyou just can't add the nitrates. The bubbles you are seeing in the red are almost assuredly carbon dioxide. Hard to dump.
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  #74  
Old 11-28-2003, 11:11 AM
Dave Bross Dave Bross is offline
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OK, thanks for the warning and other advice. Sounds like the reduction ruby will have to wait until I can throw together a tiny gas melter. I'm sure a gas unit might have some other advantages come color time.
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  #75  
Old 11-28-2003, 05:15 PM
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you can do it, but it's a major pain and is never as good as a Gas ruby. It's kind of like cooking on an electric stove. You can do it but Gas really is nicer.

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