Boro Work with fumed metal films?

[Eben Horton]

That glue gave a certain glass artist a brain tumor the size of an orange.

[Larry Cazes]

Originally Posted by Pete VanderLaan

Sky, Wood is not a metal and it doesn't burn. It's vapors do. Vaporization on the scale of small stuff is really small. Gasoline doesn't burn either,its vapors do. Someday when you're feeling brave on a cold cold morning, throw a lit match onto some gasoline and watch it go out. Vapor is as small as it's going to get.

My directions of concern with lampworkers compared to furnace people is not meant to be condescending at all. They get their intake breathing apparatus far closer to those fumes/vapors/ plasmas than a soft glass worker tends to and I warn frequently that soft glass workers with inadequate ventilation are putting themselves at risk as near as I can imagine from four feet out. .

If you have a material you can heat up sufficiently that it will interact with a material that is relatively stable like hot boro glass and change the molecular structure at least at the surface of the glass, you have something to respect. That's true of stannous as well and people ventilate the living snot out of it. It's true of Lead arsenates as glass powders which will give you substantial headaches in short term exposure. Fluorine is at the top of the big "C" list at the EPA .
You seem to want to insist that nothing bad can come of using the materials in a reasonably casual way. I'm encouraging you to change that great mindset.

At one point Mary Beth used a popular epoxy in her glasswork that was known for strength and clarity. I won't mention the product name here because the last time I did, I was threatened with legal action. She worked with it in large pools and laminated glass. She came down with extreme asthma and her doctor asked the Los Alamos Labs to look at the product. They came back with a report saying get the hell away from the stuff without a respirator and big exhaust vents. We sent that report to the manufacturer who did not respond well. But, the bottom Line? She has the lung damage now and forever. Cancers from Asbestos took 25 years to establish. Alumina silicate fibers have a similar history. Look at lead paint. You can look to the failures of myriad refractory manufacturers who all went bankrupt trying to defend against caseloads of class action suits, many from the workers who made the products.

I'll say this a second time. A STEL Limit is a 25 year study of toxicity for material found in the workplace. This particular process is barely out of the barn door and has no history. Therefore, no STEL study. I have excellent ventilation here but when I make specific glass bodies, I leave the area. These days, those melts are quite rare but we're still not dismissive of the potential. When we do glue, it's respirator and exhaust time. You'll not find me suggesting that anything less is a good idea. Craftweb has a wide range of experience. Right here, I'm going lowest common denominator.

Fair enough Pete. Thanks. Im aware of the issue with THAT epoxy and it always seemed strange to me that the bulk containers of it I saw at a friends shop had less warnings then a package of 5 minute epoxy from home depot.

[Pete VanderLaan]

I cannot , nor would I tie my observations to any specific material on the market. I would continue to say that my friends in my age group continue to drop dead from alcohol and tobacco. That being said, to my friends who are far younger, don't get cocky. Death is really forever and it comes at you fast.

[Franklin Sankar]

Quote....
t's true of Lead arsenates as glass powders which will give you substantial headaches in short term exposure. Fluorine is at the top of the big "C" ....

Pete it may be difficult to quantify but how long after exposure do you get the headaches. Say a one time per month exposure for a few minutes.
Yes it’s better to use a good mask but I am curious about the headaches.
Franklin

[Pete VanderLaan]

not to mention the PIA...

In most arsenate exposures I hear about, the headache is for minor exposure a few hours after a session. Chuck used to talk about doing full melts and having flu symptoms the next day all day. I've never been hammered by it but I'm cautious. My dad thought I had a bout with antimony once but it was never proven. I sure was sick. I don't recall what Kenny has said about it. Hugh Jenkins was fortunate to live through it and it took Chelation therapy for a long time. RIT was shut down over that episode.

Sweet smell.

[Eben Horton]

R-61 sure does throw off that sweet smell. I stopped using it for a lot of things and switched to coconut and eco white.

[Rich Samuel]

When I was a beginner at Pratt, the lampworkers, who worked right beside the blowers, were heavily into lusters. I'm sure we sacrificed a few brain cells breathing the fumes from those. I think TC got them to ban their use at Pratt.

[Lawrence Duckworth]

Originally Posted by Sky Campbell

Respiratory nuisance. Nontoxic. I would love more info Jordan. Could you please post a link from where you got that info.

If your running a torch with nothing in it you need adequate ventilation. This is a no brainer. The by products from burning fuel with oxygen can be deadly with little to no odor. Common sense tells us we need ventilation. all I'm saying is that silver even in a vapor state is nontoxic. Please show me if I'm wrong I'm easily educated.

Sky, Larry said he's using oxygen and propane with his torch. I'm not sure what you mean about the "by-products" being deadly. It's very common for home appliances to use that mix, my homes hot water tank for instance, and it has just a 2"dia. vent pipe - no fans.


I'm with you on the gold and silver fuming though. Seems like you'd burn your face off before any of the hot vapors/fumes got to your lungs. With the torch blowing the fumes at the marble, any of the fumes that don't stick probably solidify into tiny dust particles and end up as boogers or just float away. If anyone is still convinced this is dangerous and will end up in your body,... drink a glass of milk before and after your session,...it'll come out in your poop

[Pete VanderLaan]

I'm actually considering absorption through your skin. If you do think it's not possible to get it through your lungs, I'd point to studio workers who get Arsenic issues with enamel whites.

[Larry Cazes]

Originally Posted by Lawrence Duckworth

Sky, Larry said he's using oxygen and propane with his torch. I'm not sure what you mean about the "by-products" being deadly. It's very common for home appliances to use that mix, my homes hot water tank for instance, and it has just a 2"dia. vent pipe - no fans.


I'm with you on the gold and silver fuming though. Seems like you'd burn your face off before any of the hot vapors/fumes got to your lungs. With the torch blowing the fumes at the marble, any of the fumes that don't stick probably solidify into tiny dust particles and end up as boogers or just float away. If anyone is still convinced this is dangerous and will end up in your body,... drink a glass of milk before and after your session,...it'll come out in your poop

GTT Mirage but the fuming is done on the Lynx centerfire. Liquid oxygen dewer and propane at my shop. The amount of metals used is tiny. I have been using bits from a gram size gold bar for almost 4 years and I have used less than half the bar. I usually lose the ball of gold off the rod before its gone. I have a 4x4 steel hood over my bench with a well sized fan. We could argue this forever.

[Greg Vriethoff]

Originally Posted by Lawrence Duckworth

Sky, Larry said he's using oxygen and propane with his torch. I'm not sure what you mean about the "by-products" being deadly. It's very common for home appliances to use that mix, my homes hot water tank for instance, and it has just a 2"dia. vent pipe - no fans.

The appliances in your home may just be of a higher quality, Lawrence. Cheaper appliances can produce a lot of CO2. If you're frequently working in reduction you need to exhaust the by-products.

[Pete VanderLaan]

I have no dog in this fight. I simply encourage awareness.

[Sky Campbell]

Originally Posted by Lawrence Duckworth

Sky, Larry said he's using oxygen and propane with his torch. I'm not sure what you mean about the "by-products" being deadly. It's very common for home appliances to use that mix, my homes hot water tank for instance, and it has just a 2"dia. vent pipe - no fans

Hot water heaters use propane and air. If you add pure oxygen the tempatures are elevated and so is the amount of by products produced. Carbon monoxide CO and the one that I would be most concerned with NO2 nitrogen dioxide the odorless killer. Nitrogen dioxide builds up in an enclosed area and you can literally drop dead with out ever knowing its there.

[Larry Cazes]

Originally Posted by Sky Campbell

Hot water heaters use propane and air. If you add pure oxygen the tempatures are elevated and so is the amount of by products produced. Carbon monoxide CO and the one that I would be most concerned with NO2 nitrogen dioxide the odorless killer. Nitrogen dioxide builds up in an enclosed area and you can literally drop dead with out ever knowing its there.

Yes Sky and based on my research those by products of combustion are much more hazardous than a small amount of gold or silver. Not trying to minimize any of the hazards but just trying to put them in perspective.

[Lawrence Duckworth]

I didn’t know,...the oxygen I thought was to help with a more complete thorough burn and anything left evaporated pretty quick. Got any idea what a safe level of exposure to an open torch flame is before it becomes deadly?
I was hoping to avoid building a hood and that ventilation would be enough. Here’s a link to a photo of my work area. ...........
Its in the shop loft/mezzanine which has a 5700cfm gable exhaust fan and 3 windows.

Btw Larry, that GTT looks HOT!!

[Sky Campbell]

Originally Posted by Lawrence Duckworth

I didn’t know,...the oxygen I thought was to help with a more complete thorough burn and anything left evaporated pretty quick. Got any idea what a safe level of exposure to an open torch flame is before it becomes deadly?
I was hoping to avoid building a hood and that ventilation would be enough. Here’s a link to a photo of my work area. www.lawrenceduckworth.com
Its in the shop loft/mezzanine which has a 5700cfm gable exhaust fan and 3 windows.

Btw Larry, that GTT looks HOT!!

It's more about the elevated tempatures you reach with a oxy propane flame. .

I'm going to say what you have looks good. Just make sure you have adequate make up air to keep that exhaust fan from cavitating. If your concerned light a smoke bomb off where your torch is and see what happens. Sometimes looks can be deceiving and wind eddies swirl in your workspace.

I have to admit I worked for years in a shop that always had that unmistakable smell of unclean air. We had few exhaust fans and tremendous amounts of torches. It didn't kill me but knowing what I know now I would have remedied the situation or worked nights when I was the only one running fires. We lost a very talented lampworking artist a few years ago when he closed himself in a unventilated shop during the winter and passed out. It brought a lot of awareness to the community. First thing everyone said was it must have been the fuming but with research and toxicity reports it turned out it was in fact a combination of poor health and NOx. We only get one life to live.

I have 3000 cfm exhaust fans over each torch and two over the big lathe. I used the largest bell reducer I could find to bring it down over the torch like a hood and reduced it to the 18" fan. All the fans run into one plenum and exhaust to the back of the shop. I'll be honest and say the shop also has a large gable fan and huge barn doors in the front. I often only run the one big fan unless the task will take several hours or I'm working on the lathe. I gave up my last contract job building olfactometry equipment years ago to dedicate my time for my true love of working offhand.

[Lawrence Duckworth]

Okay Sky... I realize I may not be the only person using this area someday. maybe my granddaughters...Gonna build a hood.

[Larry Cazes]

Originally Posted by Lawrence Duckworth

Okay Sky... I realize I may not be the only person using this area someday. maybe my granddaughters...Gonna build a hood.

Better safe then sorry.

[Larry Cazes]

Originally Posted by Lawrence Duckworth

Btw Larry, that GTT looks HOT!!

They are hot but actually more comfortable to work around then other designs. The second set of oxygen ports sheath each candle in oxygen which if used correctly reduces the amount of ambient heat. High pressure, low volume, and very efficient.

[Lawrence Duckworth]

Originally Posted by Larry Cazes

For the last 5 years I have been working with fumed gold and silver and borosilicate glass in a propane oxygen torch. Anyone else here doing this? I would love to trade notes with anyone else that may be experimenting as I am. Different metals, toxicity data, techniques, etc. are all of interest to me.

here are the results of using 10/14k gold...tried to fume yesterday...

[Larry Cazes]

Originally Posted by Lawrence Duckworth

here are the results of using 10/14k gold...tried to fume yesterday...

Nice Larry! Try less fume and I think you will find more color. Also if you back the sphere with a dark color like cobalt Blue or black you will achieve a different color palette. I do this with all of my fumed weights.

[Lawrence Duckworth]

Originally Posted by Larry Cazes

Nice Larry! Try less fume and I think you will find more color. Also if you back the sphere with a dark color like cobalt Blue or black you will achieve a different color palette. I do this with all of my fumed weights.

Thanks Larry! I really appreciate you help.

[Larry Cazes]

Originally Posted by Lawrence Duckworth

Thanks Larry! I really appreciate you help.

Anytime. If you make it out to Silly Valley please plan to come by my shop and we can play with some fume and opals.

[Lawrence Duckworth]

Hey Larry, thanks for the invite.
I’ve tried a few fumed marbles with good silver and 24k gold and am NOT getting the color results I hoped for. I’m using a #5 tip on a cutting torch and getting good colorful deposits but things go south after that. I’m either burning it off or after doing the pin impressions the piece is too cold for the fume to stick to the area the pins cooled???; I’ve used just a dab of silver befor adding gold (Sky recommended) what do you think?

Thanks!

[Larry Cazes]

Originally Posted by Lawrence Duckworth

Hey Larry, thanks for the invite.
I’ve tried a few fumed marbles with good silver and 24k gold and am NOT getting the color results I hoped for. I’m using a #5 tip on a cutting torch and getting good colorful deposits but things go south after that. I’m either burning it off or after doing the pin impressions the piece is too cold for the fume to stick to the area the pins cooled???; I’ve used just a dab of silver befor adding gold (Sky recommended) what do you think? I’ve got 5lbs. on the gas and 15 on the oxy. Go to www.lawrenceduckworth.com and scroll down to see the four fumed stoppers and the ....Hood.

Thanks!

Based on the pictures you are going way too heavy on the fume. You really shouldn't be seeing very much color at all initially and the fumed area should appear somewhat transparent. The glass should always be hot just under a glow or as you said the metal won't stick. I fume on the center fire of my GTT Mirage. I always run 5:1 oxygen to propane on my torches but I have zero experience running a cutting torch. Is that torch designed for oxygen and acetylene? Unfortunately Im not aware of any cookbook or guide for doing this. I've taught myself over the last 5 years through lots and lots of experimentation. As in anything else if it was easy everyone would be doing it. I would suggest you stay away from the facebook live or youtube videos out there. This is an area where there is a lot of very bad advice and some is even intentionally misleading.