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  #26  
Old 12-13-2019, 09:22 AM
Shawn Everette Shawn Everette is offline
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Generically gas is considered more dangerous because it has more potential for catastrophic failure. If there is an electrical short(leak) you at least have grounding and a breaker as some measure of safety fall back. If you have have a gas leak, it just leaks until you manually turn things off, might go boom if it finds an ignition source.

With the wrong system in place I don't consider one having an advantage over the other.
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  #27  
Old 12-13-2019, 01:31 PM
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Running a seat of the pants annealer with no automatic on/off dictated by a controller is actually likely safe but Shawn sums it up well. I've had several, all in the early days when controllers were more expensive but one did have a LOVE unit on it and it controlled a solenoid which maintained temps.The burner had a pilot and one day did not fire off the pilot and gas built up quickly. When Jenny opened the door, it found oxygen and blew up. I don't want to consider where the ignition source came from, it was forty years ago. I just wouldn't consider building one today.

I don't think it prevents you from having a gas flame in there to make it reduce but it is contraindicative to long life on electrical elements, or so I'm told.

as to the reduction inside vs outside, as Steve Weinberg used to say "Hell, it's just glass."
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  #28  
Old 12-15-2019, 05:05 PM
Tom Fuhrman Tom Fuhrman is offline
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most of the large commercial factories used gas fired lehrs for their annealing as well as most of the Italian shops I've been in. The same was true at factories in the Czech Republic.
Gas does have it's own set of safety requirements and expertise is highly valuable.
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  #29  
Old 12-15-2019, 05:17 PM
Gabriel Greenlaw Gabriel Greenlaw is offline
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I'll try to get some photos of the reduction. It's hard to photograph!

I did try another annealer that was tighter and the results were the same. Thinking I might try a pilot light in the annealer and see if that has any noticeable changes. I can use the safety system similar to what's on our pipe warmer to make it a bit safer too. Thanks for all the input!

Edit: No, no flashing before being boxed. It looks great going into the box.
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  #30  
Old 12-15-2019, 07:30 PM
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Be careful with that pilot burner.

The idea of being able to run without electric has always intrigued me.
I have built small ovens to use with a mobile set up and learned the valuable lesson of having enough air for the burner and a large enough flue to exhaust it. I literally blew the doors off more then once. Yes I know it could have been a lot worse but what I learned from that has carried me forward and taught me valuable lessons I use today. The most valuable for me was simple baso safety systems for high pressure gas. I think about all those sleepless nights laying by the window so I could hear the furnace if it would start to back burn. The rumble is unmistakable to anyone that has heard it.

One pioneer in the movement that is a wealth of knowledge for simple solutions is Dudley. I wonder if he would have a solution to regulate the atmosphere in the kiln. He would definitely know enough be able to say if a burner would kill elements.

Last edited by Sky Campbell; 12-15-2019 at 07:35 PM. Reason: A couple of beers and grammar goes to shit forget spelling
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  #31  
Old 12-16-2019, 09:03 AM
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Surprisingly Dudley gets odd about it. He wanted me to pirate a high pressure regulator into my propane system so I could go with non blower burner systems in the shop. My problem there is actually that I think venturi systems cost more to operate than do forced air ones. Back burn on a furnace is almost inevitably the result of low velocity.

But he actually did advocate for a non safety system on a set of furnaces back at the fryeberg fair some years back. I had to supply a solenoid valve to a particpant since the fire marshal dug in over it and I sided with the fire marshal. Forced air and no shut off is not a viable plan. Not around a million tents and RV's.
I'll ask him about the relationship between electric and gas relations when it comes to atmosphere.
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  #32  
Old 12-16-2019, 01:03 PM
Shawn Everette Shawn Everette is offline
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I'm with Sky on the pilot, especially in the closed environment. If your pilot goes out there might be enough residual heat from the elements to trick it into thinking there's still fire. Not a lot of gas comes out of the pilot, but you're making yourself a nice little bomb. In a pipe warmer, if the pilot fails but the burner is still keeping the thermocouple going, you should be consuming the excess gas or at least dispersing into the atmosphere.
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  #33  
Old 12-16-2019, 01:25 PM
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Actually, a BASO valve would do it all by itself. The flame from the pilot side keeps the thermocouple hot. If the flame goes out, the thermocouple closes the valve. The flame should be more than sufficient to provide the reducing conditions.
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  #34  
Old 12-16-2019, 02:51 PM
Shawn Everette Shawn Everette is offline
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I'm just wondering if the heat from the kiln itself would be enough to keep the baso flowing without a flame. Not sure what temp the thrmo needs to think it has a flame, but it's not red hot.
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  #35  
Old 12-16-2019, 03:30 PM
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I had my pilot mounted so it came up through the floor and was actually outside the annealer. I currently use a BASO valve to oversee the safety system on my gas furnace and the thermocouples are well outside the firing area. The thermocouple needs to glow slightly on those things.
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  #36  
Old 12-16-2019, 04:55 PM
Shawn Everette Shawn Everette is offline
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Both of those I would concur are fine applications, I've got mine tied to the pipe warmer. In theory I could have the burner lit with the thermo in the flame and no pilot, and the baso should still function. If anything goes out the whole thing should shut down in all of these cases. Actually sticking the thermo and pilot in the kiln I'd question real hard.
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  #37  
Old 12-16-2019, 05:33 PM
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Again, mine was below. I think we might want to get back to the original issue of lehr atmosphere. I think it's worth researching actually as much as trying to find out how to make gold ruby with out lead.

Glass is elusive. The amount of molecular activity deceives us all who choose to scratch our heads over it. Why would a pile of plaster make adifference? How could molecular sex be so elusive.
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  #38  
Old 12-16-2019, 06:08 PM
Shawn Everette Shawn Everette is offline
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Well considering how readily gypsum changes with the application of heat, I'm not surprised that it would cause an oxidation reaction. It however wasn't enough to cause an overall atmospheric change in the kiln, since only the areas in contact with the plaster lost the reduction.
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  #39  
Old 12-16-2019, 07:05 PM
Nick Delmatto Nick Delmatto is offline
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[quote=Pete VanderLaan;146285]Surprisingly Dudley gets odd about it. He wanted me to pirate a high pressure regulator into my propane system so I could go with non blower burner systems in the shop. My problem there is actually that I think venturi systems cost more to operate than do forced air ones. Back burn on a furnace is almost inevitably the result of low velocity.

My "seat of the pants annealers" use venturis with flame retention tip burners, no pilot with natural gas up to 17 lbs pressure. The electric can go out & I keep annealing.
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  #40  
Old 12-16-2019, 07:56 PM
Shawn Everette Shawn Everette is offline
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Any recourse on a flame out? Or is it flame can go out & I can blow up? Try explaining that one to the actuaries.
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  #41  
Old 12-17-2019, 08:57 AM
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by seat of the pants, I mean that there is no mechanism to turn the burner on and off at a pre set point. While it may be true you can adjust the flame and get it to stay near the desired temperature, you can't peg it. That gets worse and worse as you turn it down and it wanders substantially. Soaking is different than annealing.
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  #42  
Old 12-17-2019, 09:06 AM
Nick Delmatto Nick Delmatto is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawn Everette View Post
Any recourse on a flame out? Or is it flame can go out & I can blow up? Try explaining that one to the actuaries.
The flame on flame retention tips only sometimes goes out when it's turned way down & then there's not enough gas to cause an explosion. I'm in the country with no employees or partners or debt so I have no one to answer to.
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  #43  
Old 12-17-2019, 09:50 AM
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Well, we used to have a saying in the Fire Service:

"Every man's home is his own crematorium if that's what they want."

I would say that if it can go out, it's dangerous, having been there.
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  #44  
Old 12-17-2019, 01:17 PM
Shawn Everette Shawn Everette is offline
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Nick, I really do wish you the best of luck with that system, I'm just usually in a position where someone else's safety is in my hands, and that's just not gonna fly. There are some advantages to being off the grid.

I'm in agreeance with Pete that we generally need to placate to the lowest common denominator on here. Just cause we generally understand the liabilities, doesn't mean some lurker reading does too.
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  #45  
Old 12-17-2019, 01:27 PM
Rick Kellner Rick Kellner is offline
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I finally picked up one of those Partlow gas throttling valves.

Before long here, the hope is to rig it up on a testing burner train mock-up, and see what it does, before incorporating it into a gas annealer of some kind.

Outside of buying one new, it was tricky finding a used one in the appropriate temperature range, as many of them are for ranges well below any annealing temps. Otherwise pretty slick with a temperature dial on it to select your set point.

Looks like they have adjustments for a low idle setting (throttled down), so that no separate pilot burner is necessary.
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  #46  
Old 12-17-2019, 06:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawn Everette View Post
Nick, I really do wish you the best of luck with that system, I'm just usually in a position where someone else's safety is in my hands, and that's just not gonna fly. There are some advantages to being off the grid.

I'm in agreeance with Pete that we generally need to placate to the lowest common denominator on here. Just cause we generally understand the liabilities, doesn't mean some lurker reading does too.
***
I haven't even asked: Is it natural gas or propane?
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Old 12-17-2019, 10:37 PM
Nick Delmatto Nick Delmatto is offline
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Yes, I work alone & yes Pete, it's natural gas....I have my own oil & gas well.
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  #48  
Old 12-18-2019, 08:48 AM
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I have an inkling of where you are then. Way back, thoughts of moving to southern Ohio gas fields was in the dreams but it was too isolated for me. My question would be then though,
Is there any odorant in that gas. It was a downside back around 1970 that it was odorless.

I'm not trying to rag on you Nick. I just think the risk is too big. BASO valves are not expensive and do not use electricity. The original question was regarding atmosphere in an annealer and whether a burner could help improve the reducing potential of the kiln.
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Old 12-18-2019, 09:41 AM
Nick Delmatto Nick Delmatto is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete VanderLaan View Post
I have an inkling of where you are then. Way back, thoughts of moving to southern Ohio gas fields was in the dreams but it was too isolated for me. My question would be then though,
Is there any odorant in that gas. It was a downside back around 1970 that it was odorless.

I'm not trying to rag on you Nick. I just think the risk is too big. BASO valves are not expensive and do not use electricity. The original question was regarding atmosphere in an annealer and whether a burner could help improve the reducing potential of the kiln.
Hocking County isn't too isolated, but yes, the oil field industry is why I moved from N. Ohio & it took a year to find this place in 1978. There aren't as many free gas opportunities as there used to be. Thanks for the tip on BASO valves, I can smell my gas for sure & yes, I saw that I side tracked the topic so I apologize for that.
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  #50  
Old 12-18-2019, 11:28 AM
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Pete VanderLaan Pete VanderLaan is offline
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No apologies necessary at all. It went down an interesting rabbit hole. What pressure gas can you get and can you regulate it? BASO makes both low and high pressure systems. Low is typeical household 4-8 oz and pressure is usually starting at 18 oz going up to 5 lb. If you exceed the pressure, you'll know it right away- leaks like a sieve.
It seems to me Dudley handles the pressure ones and it would be worth the investment in the rest of your life to put one in. They usually have 1/2 inch NST threads, are made of aluminum so don't overtighten it. Get it with the pilot assembly. Extra thermocouples are not a bad idea. I get mine from Graingers. Other sources just haven't lasted so long. Robertshaw is the t couple of choice for me. Mount it so the thermocouple will be responsive just to the lit pilot placed just below your regular pilot or burner. In this instance, you don't want ti running too long in a failure. I have very different requirements for my furnace. .
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