Furnace castable questions

[Travis Frink]

Originally Posted by Pete VanderLaan

The purpose of craftweb ultimately is to promote designs and to answer questions intelligently as they come up. That involves seining a lot of information.

The jury will be out on the efficaciousness of the rebuild which comes up with the first fuel bill. In the earlier days, when we would rebuild a furnace and the bill would be lower, we would pat ourselves on the back about the great new design when in reality, the new one was simply tighter than the old model.

It well could be the case that the insulating value of the stuff Travis is using is not anywhere as efficient as it might claim to be. Again, the proof will be in the pudding after a month or so.

These days, if it yields up great glass, I give a quiet "Thank You" and push a rosary bead along.

Thank you for keeping this site going. It is an amazing resource of technical knowledge as well as history of the growth of the studio glass movement from a first person perspective.

The first gas bill or two will tell how effective the build was from an insulation perspective.

Laws concerning high temp fiber insulation seemed to have changed recently and some of the replacement products are giving some people problems apparently. Namely, fiberboard shrinks and gets real soft with firings. This was apparently not a problem for this person in the past. Time will tell if the materials we used do what we need them to do.

[Travis Frink]

Michael,

If you have concrete examples of dangerous or pointless things you saw here, I’d like to hear them. I respect your experience of running a glass shop and working abroad and I’d like to think you have a significant reason for your strong opinions. But the way you’re wording things here, you just come across as a grumpy person hating on Asian/Japanese people. And after the last 4 years, I have had enough of that.

The truth is there is stupidity everywhere if that’s how you see it. It’s a subjective statement. I had similar reactions living abroad until I started to look for and see the reasons why things were different. I don’t always agree with them but I certainly understand the culture, history, social/political situation a lot better. There are so many ways of and reasons for doing things it constantly blows my mind. Some are certainly no the safest, or most efficient for sure. If nothing else, I get more entertainment out of it by trying figure out what people are doing and why than if I was just upset about it.

[Pete VanderLaan]

The site is always a challenge. We should pick on the Finnish and Norwegians more than we do.

[Art Freas]

You could always pick on the non-welders .... (ducking and running)

[Larry Cazes]

Originally Posted by Pete VanderLaan

The site is always a challenge. We should pick on the Finnish and Norwegians more than we do.

As well as those damn Boro workers

[Pete VanderLaan]

In fact, I think that the most interesting glass being made is being done by Boro workers, the ones who do know how to weld of course. It's essential to the principles behind making boro work.

Not the Finnish ones though.

[Pete VanderLaan]

Originally Posted by Travis Frink

Namely, fiberboard shrinks and gets real soft with firings. This was apparently not a problem for this person in the past. Time will tell if the materials we used do what we need them to do.

The old block insulation did what you refer to but there was material made that stays rigid. Even the white board, fired too hot , turns punky. Insblock was awful.

[Greg Vriethoff]

Originally Posted by Pete VanderLaan

...racist in its nature, meaning you dismiss an entire culture over time based on race, despite advances made in technology based on race.

It's offensive actually.

Thank you.

Done with this shit and people with small minds.

[Michael Ahlefeldt-Laurvig]

Travis
Well I did have 5 consecutive Japanese assistants over a period of 7 years after working there, so I must have thought they weren't all bad. The were among the most devoted and responsible people Ive had. My criticism is more in the industry culture of the difficulty getting things done, with way too many incompetent people having a say so in every decision. As far as dangerous habits I did see lead bearing batch handled in a totally unacceptable way and I was instrumental in going over to lead free batch. They were polluting the employees , the studio and the whole surrounding residential area with lead.
The stories are endless of all the weird things I seen in the way of technical solutions in studios in Japan, some of the good ones Ive written about before- uninsulated 1800 era coal furnaces running on gas, a mechanical manufacturing factory not being able to build a pipe cooler from professional draft drawings “because they couldn't understand what it was” the world’s absolutely most complicated furnace door- 2 meters tall, 200 kilos of moving parts. On and on.
When a buddy of mine was there a student got his motorcycle stolen- a city of 1,5 million - the police returned it the next day because if you are a motorcycle thief you don't wear a helmet and you remove the license plate and mufflers, its part of being a thief.
If I got it right your buddies built a furnace with 10 cm of castable and 10 centimeters of fiber and they ran it up to melting temp with wet castable.
Thats pretty eh silly on several levels.
I love many things in Japan, the food , traditional craftsmanship, the esthetics of gardens and architecture so Im not that grumpy
I think that if youve been there 4 years you know what Im talking about.
And if we are discussing racism we are the ones drawing the short straw, its very refreshing for a 30 year old white male with family to walk into a empty restaurant and the waiter comes running with crossed hands saying dame dame ( something like not possible) full full! Or if you sit down in a train and everyone arounds you stands up rather than sit next to you.

[Michael Ahlefeldt-Laurvig]

You have lots experience traveling Greg ? expanded your mind ?
I mean beond Arkansas and West Virginia?

[Pete VanderLaan]

It's a dangerous path to travel if you are trying to claim moral high ground.

Slippery slopes.

[Pete VanderLaan]

I don't recall Travis saying it was fired wet. I did inquire as to the potential of it not being entirely dry.

[Greg Vriethoff]

Originally Posted by Michael Ahlefeldt-Laurvig

You have lots experience traveling Greg ? expanded your mind ?
I mean beond Arkansas and West Virginia?

Whelp, I chose to engage, so I'll answer the question. I've actually never been to Arkansas, and I've only driven through West Virginia.

I'm originally from San Jose, California. Prior to relocating to Charlotte I've lived in a few cities. I'll just list the ones I've lived in first, and then the ones I've visited.

Champaign, Illinois
Seattle, Washington
Los Angeles, California
Bobo-Dioulasso
Portland, Oregon

I've been to most of the major cities in the United States several times. Only made it to New York once unfortunately.

Been to Paris twice
Aix-en-Provence (met a nice family there and had dinner at their house)
Rome
Florence
Amsterdam
Rotterdam
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Been down to Mexico a couple of times too
Others that were just stopovers on trains and planes

One thing I've noticed is that there's no shortage of idiots that will visit another country and tell the people there that the way they do things is wrong. I've stood there watching it happen more than once.

I'll let this be my last entry in this thread. I see this not heading in a good direction, and I don't want to add to any headaches for Pete. I'll take this back to facebook where it belongs.

[John Riepma]

Pete, a while back you had mentioned some technical changes to the site and asked for suggestions for new thread topics. At that time I suggested "Scathing Rebukes". If you ever decide to go this way I want royalties - per post. Possibly with value added tax on posts imported from abroad.

Eagerly awaiting the next contribution.....

[Travis Frink]

Originally Posted by Pete VanderLaan

I don't recall Travis saying it was fired wet. I did inquire as to the potential of it not being entirely dry.

No, I never said it was wet.

Hard to tell if it was completely dry. It sat completely open on the front for over a month during the dryer season and we set a heater in it for a couple days near the end. I was not there the whole time and have been busy with other things as well. I’m learning the hard way why the only thing my dad told me not to be was a concrete worker- it’s just not a job for tall lanky people. Hoping my workshop floor pour and finish tomorrow will be the last I have to do for a while!

The furnace was brought up to temp starting a little over a month and a half after casting. It was not wet. We don’t work that fast!!!

The mirror in front of the gathering port was foggy at lower temperatures but there was more than a little fiber cast used on the inside (after 30 years, the owner swears by it) and that has a lot of water in it.

[Art Freas]

Originally Posted by Travis Frink

No, I never said it was wet.

Hard to tell if it was completely dry. It sat completely open on the front for over a month during the dryer season and we set a heater in it for a couple days near the end. I was not there the whole time and have been busy with other things as well. I’m learning the hard way why the only thing my dad told me not to be was a concrete worker- it’s just not a job for tall lanky people. Hoping my workshop floor pour and finish tomorrow will be the last I have to do for a while!

The furnace was brought up to temp starting a little over a month and a half after casting. It was not wet. We don’t work that fast!!!

The mirror in front of the gathering port was foggy at lower temperatures but there was more than a little fiber cast used on the inside (after 30 years, the owner swears by it) and that has a lot of water in it.

A castable with a hydrate in it will never be completely dry until you bring it up to temp. The water only leaves completely when you bring it up to temp.

[Eben Horton]

Originally Posted by Travis Frink

Michael,

If you have concrete examples of dangerous or pointless things you saw here, I’d like to hear them. I respect your experience of running a glass shop and working abroad and I’d like to think you have a significant reason for your strong opinions. But the way you’re wording things here, you just come across as a grumpy person hating on Asian/Japanese people. And after the last 4 years, I have had enough of that.

The truth is there is stupidity everywhere if that’s how you see it. It’s a subjective statement. I had similar reactions living abroad until I started to look for and see the reasons why things were different. I don’t always agree with them but I certainly understand the culture, history, social/political situation a lot better. There are so many ways of and reasons for doing things it constantly blows my mind. Some are certainly no the safest, or most efficient for sure. If nothing else, I get more entertainment out of it by trying figure out what people are doing and why than if I was just upset about it.

I have seen some really weird shit happening in Japanese studios. Silicon carbide element car kiln style furnace with a monkey pot sitting on the car. Why use a monkey pot? They were created back in the days of coal or wood fired furnaces to separate the combustion chamber from the gathering area to keep the glass clean. It’s completely pointless to use one in an electric furnace. Furthermore the car kilns I have seen pictures of had about 5 to 10 cubic feet of air space that was completely unnecessary.
I don’t share Michael’s beliefs on Japanese glass culture but the warning signs are there...

[Pete VanderLaan]

Lots of things.

It used to be that the conventional wisdom of melting lead glasses was that it could not take open flame and that's why the money pots were used. That was quite recent- 1998. Gaffer handily demonstrated that open hearth works just fine, so open crucibles work. Money pots in the far east are still used since they can run up to six of them in a single round furnace and so, they do that a lot, particularly in Korea, Myanmar and Japan. We ship some crucibles to All of those locations but not a lot. The Korean monkey pots seem to work well for them and whether they work or not is key.

Art's point is important. the water in calcium molecules is frequently chemically bound stuff and will stick around indefinitely. Bringing a furnace to 200F does drive the water off pretty slowly. I still use lightbulbs.

There are a lot of ways to make glass things. Some for sale some for love. Look at the glassblowers in the Corning museum film in Afghanistan. The workers talk about what they make for tourists and what they make because they love it. Quite a universal sentiment. The blowpipes are barrels from Russian guns.

When we made glass actively, we almost always made stuff that was insanely difficult to make. It certainly kept it from being copied much. If you use a simple stupid glassblower trick to make work, expect someone else to copy it.

Otherwise, I love the notion of "Scathing rebukes" but we would have to eliminate one of the boards to have it. Maybe General discussion or the color work board should go. These days, they're more like easter eggs that show up when you least expect them.

[Pete VanderLaan]

Originally Posted by Michael Ahlefeldt-Laurvig

You have lots experience traveling Greg ? expanded your mind ?
I mean beond Arkansas and West Virginia?

*****
So Michael, I know you were fretting the cataract issues you've had and it was coming to a head. How is that? Have you had your COVID vaccines yet. You do seem a touch crabby.

[Travis Frink]

Originally Posted by Michael Ahlefeldt-Laurvig

. My criticism is more in the industry culture of the difficulty getting things done, with way too many incompetent people having a say so in every decision. As far as dangerous habits I did see lead bearing batch handled in a totally unacceptable way and I was instrumental in going over to lead free batch. They were polluting the employees , the studio and the whole surrounding residential area with lead.
The stories are endless of all the weird things I seen in the way of technical solutions in studios in Japan, some of the good ones Ive written about before- uninsulated 1800 era coal furnaces running on gas, a mechanical manufacturing factory not being able to build a pipe cooler from professional draft drawings “because they couldn't understand what it was” the world’s absolutely most complicated furnace door- 2 meters tall, 200 kilos of moving parts. On and on.
When a buddy of mine was there a student got his motorcycle stolen- a city of 1,5 million - the police returned it the next day because if you are a motorcycle thief you don't wear a helmet and you remove the license plate and mufflers, its part of being a thief.
If I got it right your buddies built a furnace with 10 cm of castable and 10 centimeters of fiber and they ran it up to melting temp with wet castable.
Thats pretty eh silly on several levels.
I love many things in Japan, the food , traditional craftsmanship, the esthetics of gardens and architecture so Im not that grumpy
I think that if youve been there 4 years you know what Im talking about.
And if we are discussing racism we are the ones drawing the short straw, its very refreshing for a 30 year old white male with family to walk into a empty restaurant and the waiter comes running with crossed hands saying dame dame ( something like not possible) full full! Or if you sit down in a train and everyone arounds you stands up rather than sit next to you.

Corporate culture in general seems to have problems. Especially in Japan. Largely rooted in unwillingness to change old ways. Sometimes it’s linked to tradition. Sometimes it’s laziness or ....

Stories about glass works polluting the neighborhood at risk abound. Not just a Japanese thing. I recall at least two examples I read here on this boat in two other western “developed” countries. How many others just didn’t get found out?

The motorcycle being returned is a good story. It’s so japanese!

You didn’t get it right about my furnace. Please, Read the post I just made about the furnace. I think I posted about the insulation plan in the past. 5cm each of 1300c, 1200c, and 1000c? fiber blanket- 15cm total. I think it could use more or different temperature rating combination. I don’t know how it could be better. That’s why I’m here trying to learn so I can do things right when I’m making the decisions.

Discrimination happens all over. I think I get less of it her and it’s less serious than what people of various skin color, religion and nationality experience a lot of other places. Especially the US where I grew up. I definitely see things differently after being on the receiving end. Even little things add up. That’s why I called you out. You seemed like a person who had enough international experience to understand that and act with more tact. I don’t know how seriously racism is taken in Sweden but it really is a sensitive topic in many places- and justifiably so. Even One careless, unintentional comment in the wrong situation really can have bad consequences. Look at the Asian hate news now.

[Travis Frink]

Originally Posted by Eben Horton

I have seen some really weird shit happening in Japanese studios. Silicon carbide element car kiln style furnace with a monkey pot sitting on the car. Why use a monkey pot? They were created back in the days of coal or wood fired furnaces to separate the combustion chamber from the gathering area to keep the glass clean. It’s completely pointless to use one in an electric furnace. Furthermore the car kilns I have seen pictures of had about 5 to 10 cubic feet of air space that was completely unnecessary.
I don’t share Michael’s beliefs on Japanese glass culture but the warning signs are there...

Some bad designs for sure. Largely from the Bubble Period from what I’ve seen. Back then people would wave down taxis with wads of $100 bills- or so the story goes. A lot of extravagance and waste from that time.

Those car kiln furnaces sure are easy to change the crucible in. Done in an hour or two. Seemed under insulated but it was running off electricity generated by waste heat in a garbage incinerator. The company running it wanted to show they were green and reusing/recycling....

Monkey pots are super cool to gather out of. No real need to stop and cool a pipe so probably good for fast paced production or public access studios with students/renters who don’t know how to handle/avoid hot things and dribble like a point guard

Isolating the passage bricks from offgassing of batch/cullet during charging might be another reason they are popular. I know that caused a lot of problems for electric furnaces in the not so distant past.

Monkey pot furnaces seem to run a bit hotter than open pot furnaces. Each studio is different but 150-200c hotter seems common.

Not endorsing them at all but this is what I’ve learned.

[Pete VanderLaan]

when we were first making and selling color, we had a monkey pot for the reds. It certainly cost more to run.

Ethnic hatred is usually the rule, not the exception. The Chinese hate the Japanese, The Nepalese hate the chinese. Germans? Don't get me started.

The US tends to hate Mexicans and any Asians and we all hate the Canadians. They are just too damn polite.

[Art Freas]

People (not a person) are the same. Cultures differ. Particularly in directness of communications and approach to resolving conflict. A lot of the issues running around the challenges in earlier posts are really cultural conflict and directness issues. One of the things that I have had to work very hard on is understanding how to resolve these issues. I work all the time across cultures, time zones and countries. There is a lot to learn. In glass we don't do that on a day to day basis. So in many cases you have two cultures that work but are so different in directness and conflict resolution that the interactions fail. It is about the interactions and the cultures not race.

[Franklin Sankar]

Quite true Art. I know two races who can’t work together in one country but the same two races have no problem in another country.
Franklin

[Jordan Kube]

I think everyone has a point. I've met Travis, I think of you often! I haven't met Michael but I suspect he would be just as hospitable a host. It's often hard to express and argue with the written word. I'm ready to go to China Pete.