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  #51  
Old 05-30-2018, 12:49 PM
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I have never tried adding black tin to cullet so I don't know. The yellow is the main color silver presents. If Calcedonia gets stirred, it turns gray. It is self defeating to gather calcedonia glasses. stirring is to be avoided. Heat treatment is really key to success. Hot then cold, then warm maybe then cool. Then hot, then cool. It goes on and on. I am currently making full pots of it at 80 lbs and there is no clear in the work at all but I do have three pots of the calcedonia, all tone different from the main pot. Fun but pricey. It looks like views from the Hubble.
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Old 05-30-2018, 02:02 PM
Dan Vanantwerp Dan Vanantwerp is online now
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When I was finalizing the formulations with Jim he asked if I wanted to add a decolorizing agent. I think he mentioned cerium. I wanted color in those batches so I declined, but perhaps it would work well in my reduced clear cullet. It is a pee-ish yellow probably on its way to amber with more tin added.
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  #53  
Old 05-30-2018, 02:29 PM
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Cerium is not a decolorizer. Erbium would be a choice but it leaves a faint pink meant to block green tones as did selenium with cobalt. I don't really understand what you are trying to do, or why. It just seems all over the map.
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Old 05-30-2018, 02:52 PM
Dan Vanantwerp Dan Vanantwerp is online now
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https://www.cmog.org/content/decolorizer
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Old 05-30-2018, 05:19 PM
Dan Vanantwerp Dan Vanantwerp is online now
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Question for post from Dave

Hi Dave, you posted this a while back...

"Throwing in about 20-25 grams of black tin per 10# glass (preferably batch for better mixing) with any glass you're melting = instant reduction glass.

Reduced clear on top of reactive glasses = fun. Reduced clear frit on top of reactive glasses = more fun.

This will radically change or disappear some colors so if you're thinking of doing it with a colored glass check with us first.

As already mentioned, you don't need to do this with colors that require reduction to exist, such as copper ruby, silver glasses. etc."

What colors are "Reactive" to you, if not the silver glasses? I looked at the reactive colors in opaque and transparent from Olympic and they are mostly the Iris colors which are silvers. There are others, but I was curious what you defined as the reactive colors.

Bead makers have the best color tricks, IMHO
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Old 05-30-2018, 06:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Vanantwerp View Post
That's a first for me. Given that they mention manganese at all makes me really question that statement. Manganese went out years ago and was globally replaced with Cobalt and selenium which in turn was replaced by Erbium. I don't know a single person who does that. I use erbium if I need to. Cerium would certainly be less expensive. I tend to buy clean enough silica to not really have to do it at all. Short Mountain is very clean stuff. Further, if you are combining virtually any color in your work, you would never notice the difference between a decolorized glass and an untreated one.
Gold and silver glasses are reactive with each other as with copper. Silver is the influence in making Gold glasses change from simple rubies to iris etc.

Adding black tin to a clear is kind of setting up a dog fight between glasses poor in oxygen and glasses that are rich in oxygen. I used to watch others in Santa Fe pouring enormous amounts of silver into clear cullet to get the same reactions one would expect in an oxygen poor glass.
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Old 05-31-2018, 08:44 AM
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So, I am incorrect but with a large caveat. Volf indicates that Cerium can indeed be used as a decolorizer but only in the complete absence of Antimony, Arsenic or Vanadium. Even then, it is best coupled with Selenium and neodymium with a potential sneeze of manganese. It's on Pages 401-402 of Chemical Approach to Glass. It certainly surprised me and I would be inclined to stick to Erbium if I was doing it at all.
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Old 05-31-2018, 11:13 AM
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I just bought Coloured Glasses from Weyl. Good price on Amazon...$50 in paperback. Volf is at $200 currently.

I looked at the price of erbium when Jordan described his pink color test and it was pretty $$$. Must work well if you would rather use it to remove color.

The mechanism of action for the decolorizers (as described by CMOG) is oxidation of tramp metals. It wouldn't make much sense for me to add oxidation agents into a glass that I just made reducing...like your dog fight analogy. The yellow color is just going to have to be a side product. I'll add less tin next time.

Do you think it is the tin or something else in Cristalica that is turning yellow?
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Old 05-31-2018, 12:21 PM
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If I had to decolorize, I'd use Erbium. I think 8 grams per 100 lbs is not that much to spend on.

I have on numerous occasions tried to make a cerium Titanium yellow and never had any success at all. I am not sure what Cristalica uses for a fining agent. I would have used antimony trioxide as my tool of choice but it is popular now to use sodium sulfate AKA saltcake. Now I just tried that at a friends suggestion on a reducing glass and it really discolored it badly to where I won't try that again. I think I put 50 grams of saltcake in 80lbs of a selenium pink glass, replacing 50 grams of sodium carbonate so I did not consider that to be a lot of S03 being replaced. It really darkened it badly. I have the spec sheet on the Cristalica and don't see anything there that would cause a yellow tone as I see it. I would not think having black tin in your reducing clear should be a source either, but if you say it's yellow, it's yellow. Iron can do strange things and it certainly has a bunch of valence states.

Weyl is a tough read. You will do it many many times if you are serious. I found after about ten years it made more sense. The problem I have is particularly with the treatment of silver. Both Volf and Weyl act as if it's a renegade to be avoided and I think the renegade part is true but don't think you're going to settle in with some consistency, you won't. It will go south on you in a heartbeat.

In the Joy of cooking, Julia Childs offers up an interesting recipe for mayonnaise. It is straight forward enough until you get to this cryptic observation " "Don't bother trying to make mayonnaise in an electrical storm".

I have certainly been known to have trouble with some colors when the barometer falls. Less air pressure is less air in the blower. She's into ionization.

I think the price on Volf is stable. Mine is hardbound and he printed 20 of them but I had thought the paperback was less. He may be running out. Those things all have the life of a mayfly. If you can find "Recipes" by Finn Lyngaard, grab it. Igneous glass had a limited number of copies Finn's widow sold him. Finn is dead and gone but the Thuringen recipes are just jewels. It is in the Rakow in the original German. Volf , I've seen as the 1981 original priced at $2,000 or more.
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Old 05-31-2018, 01:35 PM
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8 grams erbium should be very doable. I'll give it a try and see what happens. I really liked that pink Jordan got and with some left over erbium will be tempted to try that also. Pink and purple use to sell much better for me...everything is cyclical.

I'll snap a photo of my punty bucket...looks like the dog peed on it.

I'm ready to place a new order for unoxidized batch via Jim. Any chance you two were able to chat?
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Old 05-31-2018, 02:58 PM
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Jim dropped the ball and went off to Murano. I don't know if he has come back yet. We have certainly agreed he can mix it. I'll write him again.

If your clear was decolorized with selenium, it's possible you could get a yellow tone. I remember Spruce Pine inadvertently getting a pink at one point that was attributable to Se. Just not a yellow. The Goddess Selen is an interesting woman. I just can't see using cerium for that. Any Cristalica I have from when I brought the stuff over here from Dobern two- three years back for Spruce Pine ( Jeez time flies) showed no color at all. It was water white.
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Old 05-31-2018, 03:53 PM
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Thanks, Pete. I'm hoping he's back but not sure. I've been waiting to try him as I imagine the backlog of orders is nuts.

I can suggest only one other source of metal contamination in my clear. I made the Cristalica frit that I mixed with black tin by ladling into a galvanized bucket full of water. I doubt much zinc would have come off but surely some did.
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Old 05-31-2018, 04:12 PM
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I'm currently fishing about to see if anyone else is experiencing what you are seeing. It's the same as in crucibles. When I get a single call as a complaint, I always start asking around if anyone else is having the same problem. If It's "Yes", it just became my problem. If it's "No", then its another person either mistreating their pot, or just not understanding that they don't last forever.

Cullet, when it's being bad is quite indiscriminate. It goes after everyone and thy finally do compare notes. That's one of the things I love about craftweb. Strength in numbers. I have a few calls in, here and there. i'm at a loss to explain yellow. I can explain other things, but not that. Again, the stuff I have in the tractor shed is water white . I don't think the Zinc explains it at all.
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Old 05-31-2018, 05:04 PM
Dan Vanantwerp Dan Vanantwerp is online now
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Just for some additional info:
That crucible has never seen anything but Cristalica and this was my first time adding black tin. I had about 1/4 glass left of a 80 lb crucible at the end of a day. Added 20lbs fritted Cristalica with 50g black tin. Went from clear to yellow overnight.

Will post a color pick later.
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Old 05-31-2018, 06:16 PM
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Staying away from this: Are you melting any cristalica without additives? What do they look like?

I have always added black tin to a raw batch, never a cullet. What I wanted was a clear that wa receptive to having such materials as Silver bromide to it and in deed it was receptive. Silver flowed on the surface, it never balled up as I would expect in an oxidized clear.
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Old 05-31-2018, 06:20 PM
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Jim confirmed, he does not use cerium as a decolorizer. ( no one does actually, despite CMOG) .Start over.
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Old 05-31-2018, 06:44 PM
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I didn't mean to sidetrack you with the idea of cerium as a decolorizer. I should be more careful when I mention things in relation to Jim. I don't doubt that I just heard him wrong or didn't remember what he said.

I never add things to my clear Cristalica. I don't even wash it...just goes from the box into the crucible. The main reason I noticed the yellow was because it was such a contrast from my normal clear.
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Old 05-31-2018, 07:22 PM
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So, normally the cristalica is clear? So if you add the black tin, it changes colors? I admit surprise but if you turn it to frit, is there a difference between fritting in a galvanized bucket as opposed to something else? We are in an elimination process here, so you're clear about that.
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Old 05-31-2018, 07:42 PM
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When I use anything to make Cristalica frit it has always been clear/white. The yellow color did not come on until I added black tin, melted overnight and used it the next day. I could see the tint as I gathered but it became very noticeable in the punty bucket. I haven't made frit with it after the tin addition, but I would guess it will look pale yellow.
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Old 05-31-2018, 08:21 PM
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well that might just be a nice color. One learns something every day but it will be based in the modifiers and stabilizers. One size ruins all is a good thought. How much did you add?
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Old 05-31-2018, 11:47 PM
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Here are pics of the color change. First is a couple punty shards, before and after tin addition. Other is fragments of a bubble that didn't look good so I bagged it.

Not a bad yellow...

50g/20lb frit. Frit was melted on top of ~20 lbs existing glass.
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Old 06-01-2018, 06:10 AM
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that would be a beautiful glass to solid work. looks green to me though...
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Old 06-01-2018, 08:10 AM
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Indeed, a pinch of erbium would clean it up... I'll look at the potential of tin to make a yellow but it might be more likely that the existing iron in that glass has flipped valences.

I seems to me that if you are trying to turn an inherently oxidizing glass , such as Cristalica into a reducing glass by overwhelming it with black tin, my question is, Are you trying to color this reduced clear? If you are, the discoloration doesn't matter. If you're trying to make some sort of free flowing clear that takes silvering well, you might consider just getting some SP87 color base. You have to mix it but it has no nitrates in it.

Jim can indeed mix both my clear oxidized and my non oxidized formulas.They fit each other just fine and should fit cristalica but be a bit lower. I can't say about fit with the formula you had handed to you under some table since I no longer work that stuff. I do have this concern that you think my stuff to be low melt material and that's a matter of interpretation. It was designed for Littleton to replace SP87 if the price of Lithium went out of control and that hasn't happened yet. It is high potash which lend itself to excellent coloring and polishing characteristics but potash also tends to make a glass more viscous. I'm quite pleased with it but I suspect stemware makers might not like it at all, unless they like polishing too.
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Old 06-01-2018, 12:26 PM
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Indeed, better as a new thread.
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Old 06-01-2018, 12:40 PM
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I can see where it could be called green...sort of lemon-limeish (brand name: limelight).

I was curious about silver chloride accents and read your posts (and Dave's) about it flowing on reduced clear glass. It worked. I never had the silver flow like that before. I gathered over it and seemed like it flowed out between the gathers. Is that even possible? I used way too much. I'm always experimenting and trying to find techniques to potentially combine and find something "unique". For this experiment, I was trying to combine silver chloride accents and chalcedony. The flowing silver overwhelmed everything and I'll have to try again.

It really wasn't very hard to make Cristalica reducing at least at my 6000ft altitude.

BTW silver chloride chunks are available from US pigment for those who don't have a stash of silver nitrate, or nitric acid and a bunch of coins. Fun stuff. I've made silver bromide from Pete's and Henry's instructions and it was a little easier to handle...less chalky. Of course my bromide stuff was very fresh and the chloride may have been on the shelf a while.

I'm hoping to get 100 lbs of your batches from Jim to get a feel for the viscosity and melting. I love the way the older formula works. Thanks so much, Pete.
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