CraftWEB Hot Glass Talk  

Go Back   CraftWEB Hot Glass Talk > Hot Glass > General Hot Glass Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 07-22-2018, 01:58 PM
Pete VanderLaan's Avatar
Pete VanderLaan Pete VanderLaan is offline
The Old Gaffer
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Chocorua New Hampshire
Posts: 20,184
Pete VanderLaan is on a distinguished road
Spruce Pine 87

If you could get Spruce Pine 87 cullet for $1.50lb, would you do it?
__________________
Where are we going and why am I in this basket?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 07-22-2018, 02:47 PM
Greg Vriethoff's Avatar
Greg Vriethoff Greg Vriethoff is offline
(((0)))
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 1,948
Greg Vriethoff is on a distinguished road
I say yes. I'm already willing to go with SP batch, but my first furnace is going to be a wire melter.

Then again, I'm a very small fish.
__________________
"It's such a fine line between stupid and clever." - David St. Hubbins
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 07-22-2018, 04:42 PM
Max Epstein Max Epstein is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Posts: 186
Max Epstein is on a distinguished road
Probably. If it were your formulation, then almost definitely.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 07-22-2018, 05:46 PM
Pete VanderLaan's Avatar
Pete VanderLaan Pete VanderLaan is offline
The Old Gaffer
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Chocorua New Hampshire
Posts: 20,184
Pete VanderLaan is on a distinguished road
My formula is workably different than SP. It's great stuff, has a higher luster, no devit, but it has a different viscosity range. Spruce pine is branded and is the go to glass over the last 40 years. Spectrum 2.0 was simply SP87 with a different name.

We looked at my pot today and after six months, it looks brand new. Eric was just down in Massachusetts where he worked before coming here. The glass melted is Cristalica. Eric said the furnace looks like it's been through a war melting a mere 100 lbs a week. We plan to just turn my furnace back on with no changes after a month downtime.
If furnaces cost as much as they do, and the borax based cullet eats them alive, that's a real cost to think hard about. I offered to take a shot at fixing their problem when I brought the stuff into the country and they passed which did not surprise me. Then , add on costs to ship across the ocean, pay customs, pay drayage freight and it makes little sense if a better glass can be made right here in the USA by your peers.

But economics say it can't happen at current prices. Currently, the world price on Lithium is $20,000.00 per tonne. It's not workable. It would put the dollar cost for the Lithium alone in one tonne at $400 bucks. Making new formulas with Lithium is to be avoided. SP87 would still have it.

I don't expect to see huge market share if this happens but I need to see if it's worth pursuit of the product. It's like L'Oreal. You're worth it. If you had to pay 45 cents more for a pound of glass and your piece weight was 3 lbs. It's a dollar fifty. Hmm...
__________________
Where are we going and why am I in this basket?
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 07-23-2018, 12:46 PM
Scott Novota's Avatar
Scott Novota Scott Novota is offline
AbbyNormal User
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Pensacola Florida
Posts: 2,096
Scott Novota is on a distinguished road
Pete,


The question is not if you would like to it is if you have to. I can think of 4 places off the top of my head that would have a serious problem if forced out of cullet.

#1. They have only ever melted cullet. They are on equipment that can't handle anything but cullet.

#2. They have no way to store it with as they have gotten used to it just sitting there in a non-reactive state.

#3. They are beholden to the ease of use and time taken for it to melt. Lean on non-technical people to melt that know very little about the equipment or the process.

1.50 for a glass of water is crazy until you find yourself in a desert.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 07-23-2018, 01:36 PM
Pete VanderLaan's Avatar
Pete VanderLaan Pete VanderLaan is offline
The Old Gaffer
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Chocorua New Hampshire
Posts: 20,184
Pete VanderLaan is on a distinguished road
Price wise and supply wise It's actually going to get worse. I'm looking at six tons a week as a startup, only willing to make quality material. It would be SP87. If that went well, we'd expand. It may be the case that some people will want to find another hobby. I remember when gasoline was .22 gallon and they gave you a toy if you bought ten gallons.

Or I can go back to growing tomatoes.
__________________
Where are we going and why am I in this basket?
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 07-23-2018, 01:52 PM
Brian Mazrim Brian Mazrim is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Seattle
Posts: 68
Brian Mazrim is on a distinguished road
As another low-volume user with a wire melter, I'd pay that. But I melt under 500 pounds a year right now.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 07-23-2018, 07:57 PM
Sky Campbell's Avatar
Sky Campbell Sky Campbell is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Gainesville FL
Posts: 869
Sky Campbell is on a distinguished road
It seems pretty obvious everyone will go with the most economical choice that works for them. If spectrum comes back in availability and it is the sp clone that it was.... I'm going to say most will by the cheaper one. If the other import cullet decides to change its formula that would also be a consideration. I think sp cullet had the opportunity to take over the market and was sad it didn't fly. The competition isn't going to just go away but if you think it will then you can charge 2 dollars a pound and people will buy it.

1.50 seems high to me but I do understand the cost of energy isn't going down. Just about everything except for glass art seems seems to be getting more expensive.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 07-23-2018, 07:57 PM
Chris Lowry Chris Lowry is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 232
Chris Lowry is on a distinguished road
Depends on quality... I want the same quality as melting SP batch, donít care too much about price.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 07-23-2018, 11:30 PM
Sky Campbell's Avatar
Sky Campbell Sky Campbell is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Gainesville FL
Posts: 869
Sky Campbell is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Lowry View Post
Depends on quality... I want the same quality as melting SP batch, donít care too much about price.
I understand that philosophy and in reality it's a small cost of the whole.

The problem it would be impossible to have the same quality on any second melt glass no matter the price. If your melting the batch that is the best it can be.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 07-24-2018, 06:41 AM
Pete VanderLaan's Avatar
Pete VanderLaan Pete VanderLaan is offline
The Old Gaffer
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Chocorua New Hampshire
Posts: 20,184
Pete VanderLaan is on a distinguished road
It strikes me right now that availability is the issue concerning people the most, not so much quality. I do hear from furnace makers who say that Cristalica is ripping the snot out of furnaces. I see that with crucibles too.

Cristalica could go through the not so simple step of taking the borax out of the glass. It would have to be replaced with fluorine, nitrates or lithium. The world price on Lithium right now is profoundly high and you would see the price shoot up. Fluorine in wire units will be an issue.

The larger problem is production capacity. American consumption of cullet is at about 11 tons per day. This does not take European consumption into account. Cristalica maxes out at 7 per day right now. OCR and Spruce Pine are out. There is actually some at High Temp in Portland or there was yesterday at $1.30 lb. The representative from Cristalica came on the board around July 1st saying everything is fine.

It's not.
__________________
Where are we going and why am I in this basket?
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 07-24-2018, 12:00 PM
charlie jenkins charlie jenkins is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Dresden Maine
Posts: 31
charlie jenkins is on a distinguished road
Yes Pete.

Put me on the list of studios with a furnace that performs infinitely better when melting cullet.
I have roughly a short year of 2.0 left, but intend to replace my pot and start up next with SP87.

C
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 07-24-2018, 06:01 PM
Dan Vanantwerp Dan Vanantwerp is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Bozeman, MT
Posts: 243
Dan Vanantwerp is on a distinguished road
Hi Pete...I realize I'm in the dog house, but I just wanted to make a plea to you that if you did undertake making cullet that you reconsider the batch source. Why not use your knowledge to make something novel and forward-thinking with nitrates instead of lithium? Heck, you can even sell just the batch and have exclusivity for both the batch and the cullet. Then also offer a color base.

All due respect, over 40 years glass formulation experience only to melt SP and make cullet seems pretty lame.
__________________
My furnace setting: 2112
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 07-24-2018, 06:52 PM
Pete VanderLaan's Avatar
Pete VanderLaan Pete VanderLaan is offline
The Old Gaffer
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Chocorua New Hampshire
Posts: 20,184
Pete VanderLaan is on a distinguished road
moving the ball with forty years of cane already made is a risky proposition I would not jump on. There's absolutely nothing wrong with SP87. It may not be a casting glass but it performs better than any other glass that is branded. I may be a decent glass chemist but I'm not a fool. Do you have the slightest notion of doing what this is can cost?
__________________
Where are we going and why am I in this basket?
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 07-25-2018, 12:59 PM
Pringle Teetor's Avatar
Pringle Teetor Pringle Teetor is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Chapel Hill, NC
Posts: 625
Pringle Teetor is on a distinguished road
Yes yes yes
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 07-25-2018, 03:08 PM
Mark Rosenbaum's Avatar
Mark Rosenbaum Mark Rosenbaum is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: New Orleans, LA
Posts: 955
Mark Rosenbaum is on a distinguished road
Cullet??? Yes, count me in!
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 07-25-2018, 05:06 PM
Dan Vanantwerp Dan Vanantwerp is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Bozeman, MT
Posts: 243
Dan Vanantwerp is on a distinguished road
I've kind of been kicking this idea down in my own mind based on the price of lithium. However, if things got really bad, I imagine SP would see the writing on the wall and modify their formula. I'm not underestimating the enormity of this task and realize a formula change would be a PITA. Do you think/know SP has a contingency plan in the event that lithium rises in cost to an unacceptable level?
This seems like a legit concern less we go down the same path with cullet that we have been in the past. Here today gone manana.
__________________
My furnace setting: 2112
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 07-25-2018, 05:35 PM
Pete VanderLaan's Avatar
Pete VanderLaan Pete VanderLaan is offline
The Old Gaffer
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Chocorua New Hampshire
Posts: 20,184
Pete VanderLaan is on a distinguished road
The plan two years ago was to use a formula I would write that replaced lithium with other stuff. I did do that and it got good reviews but Tom never used it since rationing Lithium did not happen. My formula was not cheaper than lithium at the time. Life Happens. I use that formula today. It's really nice. A dead on 96, high luster, no devit good working properties. You can order it from Spruce Pine. Have it mixed as a snowflake
__________________
Where are we going and why am I in this basket?
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 07-25-2018, 06:14 PM
Max Epstein Max Epstein is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Posts: 186
Max Epstein is on a distinguished road
I would say yes... I'm interested. I'm hoping my new studio (wherever and whenever) will be batch-friendly. But if I can't batch, then I'd SP87 cullet.

I really do like Cristalica - the borax is still a major issue.

A 50% increase in price is quite significant on my shoestring budget so.... it's complicated.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 07-25-2018, 07:08 PM
Eben Horton Eben Horton is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Wakefield, RI
Posts: 4,272
Eben Horton is on a distinguished road
I will just batch my own clear if batchageddon happens.
__________________
<eben epoiese>
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 07-25-2018, 08:20 PM
Richard Huntrods's Avatar
Richard Huntrods Richard Huntrods is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Vancouver Island
Posts: 1,138
Richard Huntrods is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete VanderLaan View Post
The plan two years ago was to use a formula I would write that replaced lithium with other stuff. I did do that and it got good reviews but Tom never used it since rationing Lithium did not happen. My formula was not cheaper than lithium at the time. Life Happens. I use that formula today. It's really nice. A dead on 96, high luster, no devit good working properties. You can order it from Spruce Pine. Have it mixed as a snowflake
I was one who tried out Pete's formulation, and it was indeed a wonderful glass. It melted easily in a wire melter. I used basically the same schedule as spruce pine and got great glass.

You could tell the difference in luster of the finished pieces.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 07-26-2018, 09:46 AM
Dan Vanantwerp Dan Vanantwerp is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Bozeman, MT
Posts: 243
Dan Vanantwerp is on a distinguished road
Pete's batch sounds like a great go to for SP in case Elon Musk buys up all the lithium (Google: "Hunt Brothers silver"). That was a joke, but lithium availability/pricing seems like an iffy proposition.

Unless Pete provides his batch to you (like Richard) it would be hard to get. He points out that it requires the mixer be cleaned and Tom's only going to do that for a big customer. Are you going to buy a ton of a glass you have never worked with? I inquired to get 100-200 lbs of a sample to work with and he was uninterested. Pete was similarly uninterested in ordering a bit extra and putting some aside for a smaller customer (well, at least this one). I've discussed East Bay as a no-go as well. So, I would argue that no...if you want Pete's batch...too bad...until lithium is "rationed". Hate that word...sounds like the Depression or communist Russia.

I'd buy a ton if I was satisfied with the working properties. Does anyone really like paying shipping on a 100lb bag of batch? I'd much rather get a pallet and pay freight.
__________________
My furnace setting: 2112
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 07-26-2018, 10:39 AM
Pete VanderLaan's Avatar
Pete VanderLaan Pete VanderLaan is offline
The Old Gaffer
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Chocorua New Hampshire
Posts: 20,184
Pete VanderLaan is on a distinguished road
I'm having Spruce Pine mix me one ton in early sept. I would think they could add some on when that run gets made for other clients. Ask Greg. They pay me a royalty although it's pretty silly in small quantities. It will be mixed as a snowflake to avoid the tendency potash has of making bricks. Greg can buy me a beer with the royalty. Snowflake should be far easier to melt in a wire unit than the chunky version. It is nice stuff.

Since Richard is Canadian, the tariff issues were prohibitive for him to get it regularly or I think he would have. He buys from a distributor up near him and special orders are a PIA.
__________________
Where are we going and why am I in this basket?
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 07-26-2018, 02:27 PM
Dan Vanantwerp Dan Vanantwerp is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Bozeman, MT
Posts: 243
Dan Vanantwerp is on a distinguished road
I will contact Greg. Thanks, Pete. That timing would work out great for me!
__________________
My furnace setting: 2112
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 07-26-2018, 03:37 PM
Richard Huntrods's Avatar
Richard Huntrods Richard Huntrods is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Vancouver Island
Posts: 1,138
Richard Huntrods is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete VanderLaan View Post

Since Richard is Canadian, the tariff issues were prohibitive for him to get it regularly or I think he would have. He buys from a distributor up near him and special orders are a PIA.
Unless you buy quantities sufficient to have your own customs broker and shipping company on speed-dial (i.e. several tons), the least expensive purchase option is from a supplier in Ontario.

Even the cheapest solution basically doubled the price once it arrived at my door.

If Spruce Pine made it as a regular product, I could convince Sylvie to bring it in, but as a special order requiring larger quantities, it's just not going to happen.

I really liked it and would switch to it if I could. It melts like SP, works like SP, anneals like SP, but the finished glass has a wonderful luster. I didn't try casting (only 1 bag to test), and didn't cold work it, but know from other's experiences that it does both really well.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:49 AM.


All published comments within these message boards are the opinions of its contributor and does not represent
the opinion(s) of the owner(s) of this website. Please see the Terms of Use file for more details.

Books to Help Artists Avoid Online Scams: Top 10 Email Scams | Social Media Scams

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© CraftWEB.com. Opportunity Network. 2008. All Rights Reserved.